Exposing methods on the internet

Nov 23, 2008
12
0
You have no idea how much I just gave you the hand. Who is Denny!?!?! Why should you care. Walk on....walk on.

Your points are horrifically flawed on every level you responded to. No offense. But not worth my time to go any farther.

You just sort of exposed yourself as you really are. Not a professional....lets say. I'm really not trying to flame you, and it's all good. Some day you may understand deep down where I and most magicians are coming from. Realize for the most part the things that happen online in the magic world are the minority of the group at sites like this and whatnot. It just is what it is.

It's hard for people like me to expose anything. I don't roll a video camera and try to sell my stuff. And if I did, I would make it free for a select group I know where they came from. It's just near impossible to come on this area and complain about exposure without being a hypocrite. The cure for that is to buy books instead of internet downloads, and keep what you have in your head only for chat with people you truly know and trust.
 
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You have no idea how much I just gave you the hand. Who is Denny!?!?! Why should you care. Walk on....walk on.

Your points are horrifically flawed on every level you responded to. No offense. But not worth my time to go any farther.

You just sort of exposed yourself as you really are. Not a professional....lets say. I'm really not trying to flame you, and it's all good. Some day you may understand deep down where I and most magicians are coming from. Realize for the most part the things that happen online in the magic world are the minority of the group at sites like this and whatnot. It just is what it is.

It's hard for people like me to expose anything. I don't roll a video camera and try to sell my stuff. And if I did, I would make it free for a select group I know where they came from. It's just near impossible to come on this area and complain about exposure without being a hypocrite. The cure for that is to buy books instead of internet downloads, and keep what you have in your head only for chat with people you truly know and trust.

Come now, don't back away with your tail between your legs just yet. I'm trying to give you a chance to shine here. Do you honestly know how many "denny's" there are in the universe? Don't name drop and then back away from providing clarification.

I know of a few Denny's, Haney being one of them. A resteraunt chain being another. Which are you talking about? Don't throw out obsqure referances and then fail to add clarity.

I'm not professional? Ha. That's a laugh. I think you've got about as clear of a picture on what your arguement is as a stoner trying to discuss politics. I am not even remotely discussing exposure and downloads. I'm calling you out on your statement that selling Videos is not a viable way to make a living. Either get with the topic or quit trying to attack my character.
 
Nov 23, 2008
12
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Denny is the most respected dealer in the Universe. It's not even a debate. Every pro in the world walks into his REAL shop and purchases from his store mostly exclusive. You may have heard of Roy Walton, he is the other on the top of the list, with Tannens and a few others. But what does that matter indeed. Instead of trying to smug, when people say "ask Denny" it should be a given who I'm talking about. If I said Guy, Dai, Nate, etc. these are also a given....well to studied magicians anyway.

It's fairly obvious I'm attempting to make a point on the topic above, on a few levels and you feel like just kicking below the belt. Good luck with that.
 
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Denny is the most respected dealer in the Universe. It's not even a debate. Every pro in the world walks into his REAL shop and purchases from his store mostly exclusive. You may have heard of Roy Walton, he is the other on the top of the list, with Tannens and a few others. But what does that matter indeed.

Ah yeah. You're standing on a point that is about as stable as a one legged table with an entire team of celtic tap dancers performing on its top.

While I've heard of Tannens, and of course I know Dryer, I deal most of my magical purchases through my local shop out where I live (in California). I try to support the local business ownders, not the shop owners halfway across the country from me.

Yet, you have still to enlighten me why you think the selling of videos is not an acceptable form of making an income, and at this stage in the game I'm beginning to think you never will.
 
Nov 23, 2008
12
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It's a matter of simple ethics.

The topic is on "exposure". There is no more sure fire way to expose magic than through a openly downloadable video.

Masters of the art produce books, and then perhaps videos on the basis of their books. Anyone with a camera and that "old classic" that puts one up, is simply trying to make quick money the easy way. Let's take the new one "gypsy thread", I'd be hard pressed to think of a magician I know downloading this, they either know it already, or as I've said before will hold up a book as to where they learned it. Can you make money with downloads, SURE! Is it a good idea? Again like I said no magician I know buys any downloads, laymen I'm sure do. This is simply again because a studied magician either learns from books exclusive, or high quality full DVD's such as L+L.

I'm agreeing that video uploads make cash, but it's a very greedy, dastardly way to make money in my opinion. Every now and again with something new and fresh, why not. You should step back a little when the same names, with the same format pump out something to market every month or two. The magicians you stated before are well known to produce crappy effects for profit. And let's face it the best way to do this is hype, and knowing that you won't know the method until you bought it. With books it's a matter of options without the true hype of video. I don't own one book I don't perform at least 3 items out of. Again this is because of options.

Hopefully you get where I'm coming from and I can take the jock strap off, because the low blows are done.

It's just solid fact man. Weekend warriors get excited about video downloads. A pro reads his books over and over and over, and doesn't even pay attention or care.

As a challenge can you show me a downloadable tutorial with Roy Walton in it. How bout Ernest Earick? Why do you think that is? The brightest minds in the card world always stayed "underground". It's for all the reasons I'm trying to point you at. You may like to poke fun of me as a fool, but what I'm saying is a truth for people that REALLY love and cherish the art. They may make a video every now and again to share, but chances are weekend warriors never even heard of them. Anyone buy the Fenik video? I doubt few did. Think how many little kids bought the next hot thing. Again, it's more of a fan base the downloads bring than quality.

Sorry charlie, the best magicians stay underground and don't "whore" for money. They produce rarely and in bulk (Secrets Hamman, Complete Dingle)...book or video format with ideas they have performed for years, if not their whole lifetime in one tome.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
168
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California
I have a LOT to type up on this, the majority pretty much in favor of dstar. We two, and many others share these opinions, but do not really waste our time writing about it. It's a self discovery, or something you just learn and accept? Not sure I worded that very well, which just proves to show it is just a mentality/understanding that comes with the particular exposure you have to magic and the community of magicians you are familiar with. Perhaps stating "the selling of videos is unacceptable" is slightly harsh. It is inevitable, and I would agree with dstar, except for how I state my opinion. Selling of magic DVD's and such is just... extremely unconventional when you look at the timeline for how magic has been distributed over its entire life time. From person - person interactions for hundreds of years and suddenly a quick switch to technology and mass-marketing... well there is bound to be a "cancer" (exposure in this case) that spurts up as a result of how blatantly ignorant marketers are to the possible effects of hitting the most immature audience (teenagers and such, the majority of which cluster to sites like this), the effect being mass exposure.

It's just that the most accomplished magicians learned from books, and the old-fashioned way. You may even ask the "older" magicians affiliated with this site, and they would agree with us. The preferable and most accomplishing method of learning magic is through books and group sessions, etc... often self study or some type like that. Learning from confusing books spurs the motivation to get better, often because some books are utterly confusing and hard, and this promotes interaction with other magicians and ultimately leads to a faster learning curve and capacity... as well as leads to new discoveries in magic. For example, since the whole video marketing boom hit the world of magic, I think we have only seen a handful GREAT pieces or slieghts for card magic. I STILL perform out like most other people, however my repertoire consists of extremely strong magic from mostly long ago. The older effects and routines, USUALLY, have so much more depth and history to their creation than newer ones.

The incentive today to create magic videos is to earn money from them. If magicians, such as ones you mentioned before (Wayne H. , Danny G, etc. ) didn't need the money, then they wouldn't publish videos. Books would be the way for them most likely. If you look at all the stuff wayne houchin recommends to beginners and intermediate magicians, it consists of mostly books and theory (love him for recommending Strong Magic!). Take David Blaine or Criss Angel for example. These people make a living from their shows... and therefore need not sell more than a DVD or two occasionally. There hasn't been much GROWTH since we started seeing mass marketed videos, even though we might have seen some "kickass" effects in the last few years. We haven't really approached a mentality where we want to continue the learning process, discover new theory and implement. This is mostly done by people not concerning their time with making videos to sell.

I will stop writing now, to give you some time to refute all you'd like. Otherwise we'd be making bad discussion.
 
Sep 1, 2007
168
0
California
It's a matter of simple ethics.

The topic is on "exposure". There is no more sure fire way to expose magic than through a openly downloadable video.

Sorry charlie, the best magicians stay underground and don't "whore" for money. They produce rarely and in bulk (Secrets Hamman, Complete Dingle)...book or video format with ideas they have performed for years, if not their whole lifetime in one tome.

With great power comes great responsibility. Everyone knows this... and I truly believe that the magic community as a whole is to blame for what we are now discussing. If we were only able to forsee, or to try to predict the effect downloadable videos and such would have on our community, we would surely have come up with a more controlled method of releasing these videos to the public. Surely, we would have done anything and everything to protect the art.

My point earlier made about making videos is sort of explained above by dstar. They might throw in a few here and there, for whatever reason. The majority is kept SAFE AND SOUND from the public in books, because no one will approach them but US, the ones who know the art and not the bandwagon.

So in a way, we are truly safe with our biggest secrets and really have nothing to worry about "true exposure." I don't mind if some person exposes Daniel Garcia's TORN or FRAUD because quite honestly... I never perform them and no other magicians really would either. What we really are more concerned about inside is our FACE value and overall impression upon the public, and how magicians who ONLY do stuff like the two effects mentioned above, are immature in their practices and understanding.
 
Perhaps stating "the selling of videos is unacceptable" is slightly harsh. Selling of magic DVD's and such is extremely unconventional

I do agree. The statement is harsh. Times change, and with the advent of modern technology comes newer ways to do comerece. Selling a book, or selling a video is the same thing when you boil it down to basics. The artist is selling their information on either their handeling or their effect. The only thing that changes is the media in which the information is viewed.


...a result of how blatantly ignorant marketers are to the possible effects of hitting the most immature audience (teenagers and such, the majority of which cluster to sites like this), the effect being mass exposure.

If the job of marketing is to get the word out about a product or service, to increase brand exposure, thusly increasing sales then I think the job is being done successfully. It's like McDonalds pitching the Happy Meal Toys at the kids, KNOWING full well that it's the parents that are going to be the ones buying. All this is, is identifing your target audience and then putting the desired material into their hands. In the end it's about making a living, and putting food on the table for the family and kids.

It's just that the most accomplished magicians learned from books, and the old-fashioned way.

Unless you personally know a few "most accomplished magicians" in which you can get a quote to back this statement up from then at best you are running generalized speculation based off your own view points. This opinion at the least is jaded by your own philosophies. I'm dealing in cold hard fact. The fact that I am pressing, and defending, is that the creation of and thusly sales of magic DVD's (be they educational or performance) is a viable and acceptable form of making an income as an artist working in todays magic industry.

You may even ask the "older" magicians affiliated with this site, and they would agree with us. The preferable and most accomplishing method of learning magic is through books and group sessions, etc...

And I would argue to them that they need to get with the times. Technology is changing, evolving, and thusly evolving the way we not only learn but perform. The absolute BEST way to learn magic is to apprentice under anoter magician. Nothing beats hands on tutorials in method and theory. Books do a nice job, but DVD's are able to display the exact positions of the hands, give the artist an ability to explain the mentality, and be the closest thing to personalized lessons you can get without actually finding yourself a teacher. If we as a fraturnity insist on doing buisness and learning the exact same way our forfathers did then we fail to learn, and grow ourselves or our art form.

Learning from confusing books... promotes interaction with other magicians and ultimately leads to a faster learning curve and capacity

Unless you have a psychological study that has been conducted on this opinion, it is at the very least just that. Your opinion. One of which I think is flawed. I myself have a rather large collection of DVD's in my library. I'm also quite a social butterfly when I'm out in magic circles. Learning from DVD's has not hindered my social skills in the least.

... as well as leads to new discoveries in magic. For example, since the whole video marketing boom hit the world of magic, I think we have only seen a handful GREAT pieces or slieghts for card magic.

Stop the press here. Are you serious? First off, do you know how hard it is to create NEW material for card magic in the first place? It's like Latin, it's a dead subject. You're going to find a wonderful supply of new effects, tricks, and gaffs, but as for slights there is only so much that can be done with a deck of cards. Vernon and Erdenese(sp?) did a wonderful job of introducing to magic all the slights and skills the gamblers used to cheat, and make it an entertaining art form. You'd be hard pressed to find something these men who dedicated their lives to exploring this subject hasn't already found.


The incentive today to create magic videos is to earn money from them.

Duh. I think the point of releasing your work to the magic fraturnity at all is either to gain recognition or get paid for it. Usually both. This seems to be more of a moot point than a valid one.

If magicians, such as ones you mentioned before (Wayne H. , Danny G, etc. ) didn't need the money, then they wouldn't publish videos.

I think it is more a case of them utilizing modern technology to better suit their production needs. I'm sure there is nothing stopping them from producing books about their material, with the exception that pound for pound DVD's are cheaper, and easier to produce, market, and mass distribute.

Take Criss Angel for example.

I'd rather not, he's a horrible example.

These people make a living from their shows... and therefore need not sell more than a DVD or two occasionally.

You DO realize that they are on a certain level in this playing field that about one in ....oh.... I'd say 10,000 ever get to? These are the equivilent of super rock stars, movie stars, super models, etc. For every Tom Hanks do you have any idea just how many starving artists there is working in Hollywood? Thousands. I know, I've done this scene. I've worked with them on the long cattle calls for just about 2 seconds of just out of focus "fame" in a big budget motion picture. Their level of success isn't an option for every magician working in the business today and most of us know it. So what's wrong with suplementing their income with a few DVD sales between gigs?

I'm starting to think that you're forming way to many biased opinions without ever having worked on the other side of the arguement, let alone really having a complete grip at just how big the picutre really is. But I'm not all the way through your post yet, so that observation may be a bit premature.

There hasn't been much GROWTH since we started seeing mass marketed videos, even though we might have seen some "kickass" effects in the last few years. We haven't really approached a mentality where we want to continue the learning process, discover new theory and implement. This is mostly done by people not concerning their time with making videos to sell.

I see no evidence to support this assumption in the working world today.
 
Sep 1, 2007
168
0
California
I still fail to see what we are really arguing about. For some reason I am not able to access the first page of this discussion, so I will probably never know. Anyhow, I'm just saying I have talked with some of the people I have mentioned above (the magicians), and I am in contact with many working professionals, and some of them share the same general viewpoint, however do agree that the video craze is evolving. My main point is that the conventional method of learning through self study, apprenticeship, etc. can never be equaled or replaced. That's merely something we have to accept, and it shouldn't be something modern day magic companies try to strive for equality in.

In response to what I said about making money from videos. Earlier on, videos were shared between magicians for no price, in small circles and such. They were a means of bridging oceans, etc... when online chatting wasn't available. Even those videos were MUCH more detailed and rather book-oriented than modern magic videos.

The fact is, using Criss Angel as an example makes me feel like I'm being stabbed in the gut. However, I pointed him out over others because he and David Blaine, I would ASSUME, have participated heavily in the creation of the youth magician movement we have today. I've searched long and hard around te bay area, and if you start to check some polls and ask around, many of the newer and unskilled magicians claim their "montors" or inspiration to be either of the two mentioned above. So, in this "perspective," he is a great example of were we are headed as a community. The other half of the semi-informed community strives to be like people on T11. I see tons of "I want to be as good as Kenner" or "I want to be as cool as Daniel Madison." Surely these people are extremely misinformed because there is so much more out there, so much more that is better and has quality. Scratch Kenner, he's actually great and I respect him a lot. But the newer guys... are just a product of the newer technological era we live in. I know most of them have learned the old fashion way and have a strong background in magic theory, etc... but if only they marketed that part of themselves over the one that is appealing to buying audiences, well then we'd start to see some growth now wouldn't we. I wouldn't be pointing out the fact I don't see much growth if I was sure we were experiencing any, and at a fairly good rate.

As for creating new card magic and sleights, I'm glad to say that the underground stuff I have been exposed to is very secret and great. The newer unreleased manuscripts are continuously proving that card magic is still evolving, however I sincerely do hope this stuff never reaches the market. It's not absolutely NEW stuff, but newer takes on original and older plots, ressurecting old ideas... getting the gist?

As for being on the side of the argument I apparently am not on, I can assure you both Dstar and I have tons of original content we do not intend to share to publish, save for very close magician circles that will keep everything confidential. There is a certain respect for our own art and material that we have, and many others would agree with us in that we would not like to share with an underserving audience. My mentor still keeps me in my place and guides me through learning. He onnly shares when I am deserving or ready, and I do think that this extremely important part of apprenticeship should be at least somehow implemented into the modern selling of DVD's. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry should not have access to magic by the click of a button. There should be ways to weed out the ones who will not work hard, and one-click buy items just don't cut it. The magicians making the DVD's understand this, but hey... in this world you gotta' do what you gotta' do, and if that means selling DVD's for money, well then by all means I guess it's ok. They will take the praise, or the opposite, for what they've done. Some videos are extremely great and will be marketed out there, yet no one will buy them. I am talking about the Fenik DVD that dstar mentioned earlier. GREAT stuff, however no one will buy it. So it's funny how the ones who make high quality material can't get it sold, and then stuff from Kevin Parker gets sold like crazy. It's just gotten to an uncontrollable level where I wouldn't like to participate very much in production of DVD's, save for the next lecture Ortiz holds, whereupon I can request a copy.
 
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