How would you PRESENT this? A great exercise!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Morgan B, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. Randy - still the same.

    Well Randy, I don't know what to say. I mean, telling me "if" isn't really sharing your presentation. Actually, I have seen this presentation used by too many people. I find it a bit like saying the reason a bill floats is because you suck in really hard...nobody believes it, as the effect does not support the premise. I think tihs is one of the reasons when you get done magic, people say..."oh, my kids would love this", rather than giving the art the respect it deserves.

    As for you saying Sponge balls are "lame" and "rather silly". I can agree they are "silly", if you mean fun. Lame - well, many magicians consider having a spectator open their hand to find two sponge balls to be one of the strongest moments in ALL of magic. The reason I intro'd them into this forum...was not because they are "lame" - but because they are difficult to justify.

    Also, why I gave the easy out of colour changing deck...now that we got the easiest of easy out of the way. I look forward to reading the other submissions.

    You get an E for leave this forum and go to Ellusionist.
     
  2. Not a bad submission - what I like about this approach is that you are using common occurances to introduce your effect premise. The one thing I would be careful of is asking the audience a question that they are ACTUALLY right on (or they were) and then telling them they are wrong. This is similar to doing sponge balls and asking, "How many in the hand" - in which they say "one" and you say, "Wrong, three". Not a good way to connect. The effect sounds promising, but I would think about how I would word those moments to not make the audience wrong.
     
  3. Hmm, why not just use sponge rabbits?

    Good attempt, I know sponge balls are hard...that seems contradicting, but you get my point. If you really presented this for people, they might find it chidish. THE PREMISE SHOULD SUPPORT THE EFFECT - let's say it together - Arthur Trace tells people this, and it is very true - what you DO has to be supported by what they SEE - do you want people to believe what you are saying is true? If not, why are you saying it? If so, then I think you will struggle.

    Good attempt though - first to tackle the difficult premise of sponges.
     
  4. This is kind of a Darren Brown - "I control your mind" approach. Not sure what to say, I find it a bit serious for the actual magic that is being presented. I mean, forcing someone to see another colour card? I think if the effect was the cards turned to money, or all blank even after they saw faces...even then...

    I am on the fence about this one, as I don't hate it...but I have a hard time liking it either. I think it is close to narrative patter, with the difference being you are telling them about the mind control you are creating...or the visualization...rather than them experiencing that...until you are done your sleight. If you do this - the method has to be MOVELESS, or at least appear so...or you look like a guy that is using sleight of hand to try to suggest he controls minds...when you really control cards...anyhow - not bad.
     
  5. Just to remind you:

    I will send the winner a handling of a Colour Changing Deck this is original in concept...at least to my knowledge.

    Please write the script for:

    A) Sponge balls

    B) Colour changing deck

    Best of each wins the effect - I will give it a week....thanks for the submissions so far, minus Randy, haha
     
  6. Color Changing Deck and Sponge balls

    Color Changing Deck

    When I present myself as a werewolf or some other mystic thing I feel inclined to introduce myself as. I use this presentation:
    “Have you ever seen a Werewolf, vampire? I bet you haven’t, you want to know why? They use a special form of visual impairing, manipulation of your vision if you would to make you see another human instead of a snarling beast.” They stare blankly at me,

    “A demonstration I guess is needed.” Bringing out a deck of cards,

    “Please shuffle these cards for me.” Once they are satisfied with the shuffling take out a card and hold onto it. I ask for the rest of the deck back.

    Now at this point I magically produce a permanent marker, pulls it from my pocket *Sarcasm* very magical *end sarcasm* “Please I want you to know you shuffled the deck and you chose a one of a kind card. I want you to be even more reassured that your card the,” Names the card like a true mindreader :p

    “Go ahead and sign your card, its even more one of a kind now, you are the only one to have this signature.” Proceeds to put the card into the center of the deck.

    “Even though your card is in the center of the deck, I have gone through the motions to foul your eye into seeing your card on the top.” Turns the top card over and its there signed card.

    I know revolutionary, “But wait its not only the top card, it’s the next card, and the next,” Shows three or four duplications of the spectators signed card.

    “No I need to dispel the enchantment I have placed on you, first your card” waves hands over duplications causing them to become different cards.

    “This leaves you with your card still in the middle,” runs through the deck and finds the signed card still in the middle.

    “And to completely restore everyone’s vision,” Does a flourish snap of the fingers, “look your card is really this color.” Proceeds to pull out the card from the rest and then shows the backs of the deck which are different from the specs card.



    Pill Bottle Sponges

    I find it funny when I open a new bottle of meds.
    The spongy material that they place in here is peculiar it never seems to want to stay one color.
    *Takes a few pills*

    You see it always starts out ----- color, and after a few minutes it changes into this color. It continues to change, *Takes more pills*

    The world seems to melt away and my focus is on the peculiar sponge material, *changes color again.*

    I feel happy and I giggle some, then more and more until I can't stop. *finishes the bottle of pills*

    But then there is a point where I feel like I am being stabbed in the chest, sure the sponge is fun to watch as it changes from red, yellow, purple, but the pain is unbearable. No more giggles no more happy, I dread the next part. The sponge turns black. *Color changes sponge into a black one*

    It is then that I feel nothing.... *changes the black sponge, into a black box and end it there*

    Of course acting and dramatics is what sells this, and yes its was my presentation during drug awareness week at the Boys and Girls club of Kauai.
     
  7. I just say it's the world's fastest card trick. Everyone is familiar with the idea of a card being put back into the deck and then a magician somehow finding it again, though most people associate this with tedious counting sequences, sets of questions and answers, or at the very least looking through the deck at the faces.

    I try to keep to just one "pick a card" effect per audience when possible, and this will usually be the ACR. In an informal party setting, it can be expected that eventually somebody you have already shown it to will come back with a friend and say, "show her the one where the card comes back to the top!" When this happens, I act reluctant saying I might be pushing my luck a bit to do it so many times in one evening, but after agreeing to do it, I instead pretend it went wrong on the first try, hand them the incorrect card, then have it change into their card.

    No fancy plots on this one. I don't think they add much to the ACR. It is the simplicity of the effect that people can understand.


    Joe
     
  8. Thanks for posting.

    The colour changing deck doesn't suit me, and I, PERSONALLY, get turned off when the character that a magician plays is more morbid than I would see in your average restaurant or walk round performance. However, guys like you always seem to have an identified and strong idea of character that works. So, although it is not my favourite presentation of the colour changing deck, I can see how it would play strong for you. Again, didn't hate it, just not my favourite flavour. What I did love about it - how you wrote it out for us, very organized and focused on the script. Thank you.

    I really liked the sponge ball presentation - using the bottle of pills, although may not suit anyone or everyone else, (nor should it) is very creative and thoughtful. Also, outside of Scotty Clitsome...yeah that is his real name...not many do colour changes with sponges. My favourite presentation on sponges, so far. Great job!
     
  9. Hi Joe,

    I have seen this opinion before, and I don't disagree magic can speak for itself. I see it as music...music speaks for itself, but adding lyrics can make the song so much stronger. I see this with magic when presented properly.

    I wonder if you feel this way, because you have never seen an effect presented in a way that made you think, or connect with you. I would recommend the first of Ascanio's books "The Structural Conceptions of Magic" - and certainly "Strong Magic" by Darwin Ortiz...just to name a few - probably the latter will help you understand why it can enhance an effect to add presentation.

    Sure, David Blaine proved you don't need to add presentation - but being a TV magician is different than being an entertainer in a group. I often use motivational messages, educate about the common questions/misconceptions people have through an effect.

    Lastly, I don't agree that you should stay away from doing more than one card effect - I do think you should offer variation, and Ascanio calls cards, "the show in your pocket" - so I would think you could squeeze out one or two more. It doesn't sound like you are interested in your audiences opinion...they come back to see you again, for a CARD trick, and you don't feel it has value?

    Regardless, understand presentation is not just talking for the sake of talking, when it is done properly, it should create interest of various levels.

    I hope you reconsider your stance - but either way, thanks for posting.
     
  10. The moveless thing isn't difficult, hell I could just palm the cards and stick them in my pocket while grabbing a sharpie for the next effect. Though looking back, it would have to be perfect.

    For the spongeballs effect I would use the two larger rabbits to start and then produce more smaller ones. It was quite late so my brain wasn't being very creative.
     
  11. I am so glad that the bump worked :) and to see morgician back. I'll try to contribute some of the patter that I use laterz on :)
     
  12. Thanks for the compliments Morgician.
    I am not really all that dark in real life, (I just watched Halloween so I as in that mood)

    Here is my attempt at something less serious, and in the scenario of a walk up street magic style that is popular now a day.

    Walks past some marks and double backs to the group.
    “Excuse me do you have a second, may I have your opinion on something?”

    “Yes, oh great thanks you see I have this problem with this deck of cards.” Brings out a deck of cards and runs through them showing back and front.

    “Do you see anything wrong with them? Here take one out and get a better look at it. Actually lets go ahead and have you sign it.” Looks for a permanent marker, finds it and hands it to the spectator.

    “Go ahead and initial anywhere on the face of the card. Place it back in the deck. Wonderful, now here is my predicament, even though your card is in the center it appears on the top. I don’t want it to be on the top, I want to keep it in the center.” Does a two phases of ACR using one-card controls, the last phase leaving it on top of the deck.

    "It also does it in reverse," Leaves the signed card on the top of the deck.

    “See that’s not the end of it, if you look through the deck you will see that the rascal of a card is still in the center now.” Pauses and casually glances at the backs.

    “Gah wait that’s not all, besides the cards not wanting to cooperate by staying in the middle they have decide to change on me,” shows the backs have changed colors

    “Now they don’t even match the card case anymore, well except your card which you may keep. But what is up with the deck isn't that crazy, I mean really, the nerve of them.” CONTINUES with other patter.

    I love talking by the way.
     
  13. I think you've completely misinterpreted my post by jumping to conclusions about my stance. You seem have just argued several of the things that I often find myself arguing. I think you were too quick to read what I said and actually take in the meaning of what I was saying, and I almost find it insulting that you have made such assumptions about me as to recommend books, the latter of which I am very familiar with, apparently in order to "help me understand".

    First, when I stated my way of presenting the ambitious card, I didn't say there was no presentation, or a silent presentation, as you seemed to imply I did. You also seem to have taken my stance to be this on all magic, which is certainly not the case. I love to present effects with fuller plots and meaning to them, but the point I was trying to make was that I think people sometimes overdo this with the ambitious card routine, which is beautiful because of it's simplicity. I present the ambitious card simply (not silently or overusing the "watch" patter), so that I don't hinder the elegant simplicity of the effect.

    Furthermore, I'm not sure how you managed to misread my post as saying I only do one card trick. I am primarily a card guy, and most of the stuff I do is with cards. If you read again, you will see that I actually said I avoid doing more than one "pick a card" effect, that being, specifically, effects which entail having a spectator pick a card. There are many more types of card effect than that, most of which lend themselves much better to a deeper plot or idea to be explored in presentation.

    As for reconsidering my stance, I hope that you can please reconsider your ego a bit and tone down on the preaching. I know you are only trying to help, but if you aren't careful, you can end up making too many assumptions, jump to conclusions, and ultimately causing offence rather than being any help to anyone.


    Joe
     
  14. Idk, what i usually do is show them the card being placed in the middle(marlo tilt, love that move) and i say Watch if i snap my fingers, or wave my hand over it rises to the top. See I believe what im doing is magic cus then it creates that for everyone else.
     
  15. I'll be honest, it is very generic and would hope you strive for something more creative. Even if you believe it is magic it still could be so much more and relates or somehow impacts the audience on a personal level if at all possible.

    Remember it's all about advancing magic and yourself to a different level.
     
  16. Hi Joe,

    I guess when you start your post with a line out of a bad Harry Allan “sleight of mouth book”; it threw me for a loop.

    Then you decide to take a thread that is presentation based, and give your opinion on pick a card tricks...which is really not what this thread is about.

    I guess I got lost, because I don't see ACR as a pick a card effect, because it isn't lost then found, per say. Regardless, I didn't mean to assume you were a one trick pony.


    Not trying to start an argument, but I think what you said...to a guy that doesn't know you....when the intent of posts is to share presentations, made you look unlike the person you say you are. Please read your previous post before you try to argue my perception of you. I am not trying to be rude...as your own post, if that is all I know about you, made you look off topic when dealing with the intent of this thread. So, I think you are off base, as my intent was not to offend, but help...your post is serously misleading, as you didn't really add a presentation. Actually, we aren't even doing ACR anymore...we are on to two new plots, sponge balls and colour changing deck, so it actually showed that you didn't read either. So, who is being rude? It is like coming into a conversation half way through...with a topic that has been over months ago, and wondering why you are getting strange looks?

    This line then made me think that you weren't really about adding presentation...as you stated...you don't think presentation adds much...so, the natural assumption is you wouldn't add a presentation? Am I taking crazy pills? The word simplicity...come on?!

    GREAT - Share one - or share one you don't use, show your knowledge by thinking up a presentation that you may never use, but displays the approach you would use. This is the exercise and task at hand, not your feelings on how people overdo presentations. The thread, that I started, is an exercise in connected presentation - we used ACR, because it was an effect we all use...but again, we are past ACR...months ago...MONTHS! So, if I am out of line for not understanding your input on a conversation that hasn't been posted on - with the limited information you shared, my apologies...but I am intelligent, and I feel this was a communication error, more than an insult to you - but thanks for being mature enough to attack me in a community I constantly try to improve with my own knowledge - who is the real ego maniac when you think misguided help should be shunned in fear of offending someone? You sure showed me, but flaming me for the same thing you thought I purposely did to you. Seriously? Hypocritical to say the least.

    I think if you read this thread properly, you would have got the intent and spirit of why we used ACR - If my assumptions, because of poor posts, offend people...then I would say, "calm down, get thicker skin, and politely educate me where I have mis-stepped...or, instead show the forum that you are just another hot head that has an easily bruised ego and feels the need to defend himself" - really, this could have been avoided with as much precaution by you, as you wish I took...the difference - you had more information to make a smarter more accurate contribution to this thread, than I did about your "level of ability", from your 5-6 sentences.

    It was polite feedback...so instead of being thankful I took the time to read your words, you show ignorance on my misinformed reply. Perhaps the book I recommend next would be on communication skills, rather than your magic.

    Thanks for taking the time to put me in line though. I would hope for more on your next post. Please don't make this a flame war; I would really hope you would share ideas on presentation...even if it is something you don't present on...which again, was the idea. If I bruised your ego by unintentionally "talking down to you", that was not my intent. Again, forum posts are misleading...and I hope you can see that Joe.

    Cheers.
     
  17. Sorry Morgician, my last post was possibly a little too harsh, but seeing as I have not been around for the past few months, I thought there wouldn't be any harm in also giving my own input on the official topic of the thread rather than one of the conversations that has spawned from it that I have had equally no chance as yet to get involved in. Your analogy of coming into a conversation half way through and being ignorant of the current topic is flawed. A better analogy would be that of a conference centred around a topic, where many conversations could spawn from the initial topic, but a latecomer could still expect to be able to make an input on the original topic.

    My post was about my presentation of the ACR, and I wanted to emphasise simplicity in that post was because I had been reading through the thread seeing many weird and often overcomplicated ideas for presentations that could all too easily smuther the magic with obfuscated reasoning.

    The reason I then mentioned the repetition for a friend was simply to share some advice for when you are asked to repeat the ACR in front of a friend that works well when presenting in a simpler way. My comment about pick a card tricks was relevant because it related to my presentation of the ACR.

    I did not say that presentation doesn't add much. That's just putting words in my mouth. To quote myself "No fancy plots on this one. I don't think they add much to the ACR.". Emphasis on fancy plots, not presentation. Secondly, I said, very clearly and specifically "on this one". I then repeat that I am speaking specifically of the ACR "I don't think they add much to the ACR". Suddenly you think I apply this to all tricks.

    Please also understand that you had not upset me or damaged my ego. I couldn't care less if you thought I lacked skill, that's not why I replied as I did. The reason I was annoyed was because of your preaching down and assuming that you were better. It's not just me, I noticed it mildly elsewhere in this thread also. You demonstrate this trait again in your last post, when after apparently being repentant to some extent, you go on to say...

    Once again, you are preaching down. It's an ego booster disguised as advice, and it is something I find annoying whether it is directed at me or anyone else.

    In your previous post, you also invite me to share something which you deem to be relevant to the current conversation, but I now hope that you can see that I initial post was relevant and appropriate. Forgive me for not wanting to share my further thoughts and ideas on this topic, but I've somewhat been put off by the fact that you seem to be more expecting me to try to prove myself than anything else.


    Joe
     
  18. Joe,

    My comment on the "communication skills" book was a light jab, not an ego booster...there is a difference.

    I like everything you said up until the end - which may not be a cop out, but it sure as hell reads like one. I am not looking for you to prove yourself, I just figured because you stated that you are already up to par on the books I recommended and more, you would be able to help this thread...which at this point, I don't feel you have.

    If anything, you have detracted from the topic - and since I am running a contest to give away a creation of my own, and I started the topic...in effort to keep it alive, I do take position as the group leader and judge, hence the feedback and the effort to keep the dialog moving. I don’t feel this is my position in all threads, but if we were in meeting room and I brought up a topic that has merit, I would be responsible for the organization of it.

    I do deem you sharing something as relevant to this current conversation, because that is and was the intention of this thread - not the relevance of ACR presentation, but presentation of randomly selected effects as an exercise in presentation and approach to presentations.

    Truthfully Joe - I don't have to forgive you for not sharing your thoughts any further, because to state that is to state you have contributed to what is going on in this thread in the first place. Thank you for moving on to another topic that I hope you will not miss the point of.

    Please read the first post, and how we have been working on presentation, to understand how far off you are even if were discussing ACR. I hope you see this as a miscommunication, but I am insulted that your replies are as full of ignorance and self indulgence as you seem to think mine are.

    Joe, I think that is what you are confused. The purpose of this thread is to develop discussion around presentational mis-steps, discuss why some things would work, and others wouldn’t – without tipping out own presentations. We are trying, NOT to develop new presentations or talk about which effects do and don’t need presentation, but understand what it is to present an effect in a clear and connected manner. So…if that is the purpose, the intent of my posts was to critique and discuss that – which I am more than qualified to do…because all I am doing is contributing of my opinion, although a well informed one, still an opinion. Your purpose seemed to be sharing thoughts on if presentation is valid or not – which is not our topic – moreover, I am unsure of your intent, because so far – it has appeared to be a disruption to the goal of the thread, as you have added very little but a distraction…but I guess it beats having to bump the topic.

    Again Joe, you seem to think that I am trying to “ego” trip on you – when really people like you are the reason I left this thread. You are more concerned about policing how I write and approach my posts, then the validity of what I state. I gave you feedback on your thoughts – and you chastise me for my approach – when I feel you were off base. Your consistent personal attacks are just a sign of your insecurities, and I hope we can both put these issues aside and enjoy a discussion.

    If you have nothing to add – just don’t post Joe – move on and share your opinions in the proper threads…or heck, create your own. I would love to read your thoughts.

    Thanks
     
  19. So....to get it back on topic:

    We have had some great ideas and logical approaches to sponge balls, and colour changing deck. Does anyone else want to share an idea that we can discuss openly for either of those plots. How can we make the magic moments in these effects make sense from a presentational stand-point.

    Arthur Trace talks about the "effect supporting the premise" - does your presentation do that? Are we asking our spectators to suspend their disbelief too much for certain presentations?
     
  20. Would you have to suspend it depending on your presentation? Perhaps if this was an opener and to simply amaze them, but I believe most people would use the Color changing deck in the middle routine or to close it.

    In my case, I could do some very simple suggestion techniques from 7 Deceptions and could not necessarily suspend their disbelief but create a new belief in the process. After having success with the first suggestion I simply tell them because they did so exceptional with the first test the true "experiment" (w/e word works) shall begin.

    This "experiment" will test not only how well you listen, but how far I can take a simple suggestion. Then I could go into the effect with my presentation as listed before. If performed correctly this could nearly eliminate any doubt in the back of their head since it's not reading their mind or predicting the future.
     

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