How would you PRESENT this? A great exercise!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Morgan B, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. :p Allright, lets start with the weakness:


    1.-So yeah My love story plot has worked over so far, but that's because I usually perform for guys and gals of my age(18) so, this plot maybe wil work with young people, but if someone older (maybe 30 and more) comes... I dont think my plot will work that well.


    2.-(This is not a weakness its a mistake I made) There are a lot of sleights I like, one of them is the card call, so that move was in fact in my routine, but after a few test runs, I discovered that it was going a little akward, I forced the move into the routine just because I liked the move, and its not like that! I have removed it from the routine, and the routine flows better than before.

    Note: We should remember that our work, tricks and routines have to be worked thinking in the spectators, we can't incorporate a move we like just because we like it, we need to think a little bit beyond of what would the laymen think,and if the move works fine, then yeaaaa!:)

    3.-The Finale: Althought I created a Topic about this a while back, I just can't get the closer I want! There were some awesome Ideas there, but I still can't find it! So at the end the spectators are like "great but so much hype for this closer?" altough when I have a table nearby I perform Triumph( it usually goes well)

    4.-After the routine: Most of the time when I finish, the spectators ask for more, so it becomes an erratic mess of tricks, jaja, That's why I bought Panic, Because I wanted it to become my closer and my excuse to get out"And the deck goes back to the box!, awww I left the box at home..." But I haven't worked a way to do that, Its a little more complicated than that...

    5.-The tricks outside the routine.- I have dedicated so much time perfecting the routine and the sleights, that the other tricks or sleights are looking kind of weak when I perform them.


    So, Do I use An emotional hook? Definetly yes. Why?

    As you (morgician) Accurately quoted Mr. Brown, It's something we should practice a little more, and even outside magic...

    Being an Interesting Person is not about talking about ourselves and ALL our glorious triumphs, Its about taking the interest into the person in front of you...
    So when I perform, Its not about me, Its about them...:)

    Yep, My routine could be definetly better, there are a lot of flaws, and I Haven't thinked about using another storyline, maybe ill think about something different..


    Great thread, keep the posts coming:D
     
  2. well (for rdchopper) why dont you make your own gimmick for panic (apparently you can?), you could at the begining force lets say the 8 of hearts, at the end of the routine, say "and the girl and her freinds went away for a night out (put them in your pcket), when eventually they came back, everyone had left exept her boyfreind (vanish the cards exept the "boyfreind" if you can do that) and thats when she realised she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him". sorry to put it in the wrong thread, pm me if you wanna talk about your routine... or whatever :)
     
  3. RDChopper - thanks for responding - you started to get into method a bit, and eventually, we can certainly talk about that and I can share some ideas with you for an ending - however, for now, I would just like to discuss the presentational aspects.

    Your first point was great - this is a weakness - comedians will sometimes say, don't write a joke that can only be used in ONE country or city - as it is limiting, so you realized your presentation is limiting to age. Good.

    Also, you talked about you verus them in topic - I don't mind those things - but how about US? yeah, making it about us - and there is nothing wrong with making it about you sometimes, and them others - but remember, bring them in.

    So - if the story is about YOU - what does that look like for ACR reasoning?
    - if it is about THEM - what does that look like?
    - if it is about US as a group, what does that look like?

    What kind of presentations would give that vibe?

    blahblah - actually, that was sort of on topic - that may be a good presentational angle for yours - and instead of making the card have a persona...you have made it an analogy about love. Everyone can understand and relate to that.

    Let's discuss the above concepts though - how do you make it about them? us? you?
     
  4. I would think about the acr, what it is, a card comes back up to the top.

    now think about some theme, lets say you do "tricks" but are they tricks or are they miracles?

    well I thourght of this as a presentation a bit ago for the acr

    "look ill show you something strange, see, my uncle was a magician, he did the normal stuff like pulling coins from my ear and everything, anyway, a bit ago I went into the attic and I found this box of magic stuff, and I found this deck, and I wonderd about it, it was so pretty (pull out a nice deck like the ghost deck) but strange things happend when I did magic, look ill show the strangest...
    I would get a card, put it in th middle and it sometimes.... their see? It came back to the top, and its weird, it only happends sometimes but look ill show you again (this time do a db to show the card isnt on the top), oh yeah, that sometimes happens but see, If I concentrate and the improtant bit, which is to beleive, then the card is on the top, -do that a few times- and you know something weird? well see this I found out was a deck my uncles girlfreind gave to him just before he died, and on the queen of hearts she signed it with her name -now RDCHOPPER could go into the love routine, or you could do memento- and thats when I realised I needed to tell people its okay to beleive".

    or thats what I thourght...
     
  5. Would that patter precondition the audience to believe you have a gimmicked deck? Just a thought.
     
  6. well thats what I thourght, and if you think about it thats actually a good thing-If it was a gimmicked deck and all the cards are differant the question is still "how does he do that?" and you can ask them to check it, the more they check it the more they (will) beleive what your patter is - their is nothing wrong with the deck? well how did he do it then=you just have to beleive.
     
  7. The issue there for me is the ability of spectators to come up with increasingly illogical explanations... Rather than just having to believe, they'll just secure the notion in their heads that it's just somehow fixed in some secret way, and they'll just think that they simply don't know how. I'm not saying this will definitely happen of course, just offering a possibility. Of course, if they think they have a solution, even if they can't explain it and/or it's illogical, it still ruins the magic...
     
  8. I think It would be better if they don't have that kind of question in their mind since the begining, because all what you are producing in their minds is the question mark, they are going to be far more busy thinking in how do you do it, rather than enyoing the whole thing.


    Just my thoughts:D
     
  9. Alright, great so we have the ball rolling - blah X 2 story is a very cool emotional hook, and honestly - I don't think people will think you have a "trick" deck if you let them shuffle and examine it - and if they do - that theory will be short lived.

    So - what are the concerns - well, will people "buy" in to the story - how are they involved or hooked into the story. It's an interesting plot, but are we asking people to susend their disbelief. Blah squared's story would make a great show piece, but if we were at a restaurant will people realize that it's just a story to do your trick.

    On a side note - people are always thinking about how you do it...that is ALWAYS on their mind, so it's nice to lead them down the wrong path so far they can't get back. Think of it this way...the entire time we are thinking, I am going to fool the audience...so why is it so unnatural the audience is always thinking the opposite. Imagine a forum for laypeople, where a guy wrote - when I see a magician, I ask him about his family life...so he isn't always thinking of fooling me? haha.

    Seriously though, this brings up another question - do you think that extremes exist? Do you think that having no presentation, is as bad as OVER presenting something - making it TOO dramatic? Can we get to the point where we are trying to make it too serious or connect? How do we find the middle ground, while still maintaining an emotional hook.

    Keep in mind the car thing I posted above....also, what are people most interested in?

    I will talk more about that after a few more posts on the topic. Good work guys.
     
  10. #30 Randomwrath, Oct 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2008
    Hmm...I usually present it metaphorically making the card a thought. You know how you try to push a thought out of your mind? Think about something else and yet the first thought pushes it out the way and pops up? Where did I put your card? How many cards down would you estimate? About 20? So that's 20 thoughts for it to pop up in front of? Much harder. And yet here it is.
    You get the idea. Great thread btw.

    EDIT: Oh and then there's always the time when they aren't thinking hard enough about it. See, it isn't on top yet. Concentrate *pop* that's better...
    (In case you hadn't realised, I have some strange thoughts running through my mind.)
     
  11. I always try to find a connection to gambling with any card effect I do, because a layman is more likely to have encountered, touched, felt, experienced cards in a gambling situation than any other. Therefore, I have created some resonant meaning for the prop other than "Look, here's something I can do some clever s*** with!".

    Therefore, my take on the Ambitious Card is that it's a demonstration of the level card control can be taken to. If a particular card that the cheat needs in his hand is lost in the deck, he needs to be able to make it available for himself by controlling it to the top. In this way, an ACR can be dangerous and edgy, it can show the spectator that however safe they think they are, however clearly the card is buried in the deck (or, by implication, however thoroughly the deck is shuffled), it can always be controlled. This gives some real drama and tension to what can otherwise be a very masturbatory routine.

    For an average layman, as soon as you bring out a deck of cards, you are demonstrating that you cannot perform real supernatural feats. Therefore, you are either using some clever gimmickry or sleight-of-hand. I would prefer my audience to believe I have incredible dexterity rather than expensive gaffs, so I need to create a dramatic justification for these abilities. If I revealed the truth, that I spend hours indoors, out of the sunlight, playing with cards for hours and hours (...and hours...and hours...) for no personal gain other than to fool them, then there is no theatrical element. Drama comes from conflict, and, as far as I can see, the only conflict inherent in a blatant display of card control such as an ACR is created if you use a gambling presentation.
     
  12. MY PATTER...

    ME: "so, you see how that went right in th middle, correct?"

    THEM: "Yeah"

    Me: "Well, did you know thatafter a card is touched by someone, it retains a little bit of their energy?"

    THEM: "No."

    ME: "Well, when it has this energy, it is possible for the card to actually break down into microscopic particles and actually move itself to the top of the deck."

    THEM: " Okay."

    ME: "watch.... Did you see it?"

    THEM: "No."

    ME: Look...

    THEM: "Oh S*&$! That is insane, yo. You are a crazy M@^$#%F&*^%."

    Me: "Thank you... I'll show you one more time."

    That is how I usually do it. However, my patter ocassionally verries depending on the mood and/or situation I am in at the time.

    Dylan P.
     
  13. It looks nice, but in a personal opinion, if we overdo the patter,I mean like using a storyline too incredible it loses a bit of the credibility of the people, where are trying to make people believe that we can bend a little the reality, not that we make miracles...


    So I think it is a bad idea if we dont have a patter (well if you are trying to show skill that's another story) but if we have a patter to incredible for them, they may not diggest the magic that well.

    althought taking a little back into the routine you use my friend, I suposse you have a lot of showmanship to make that work like you say it works, nice!:D
     
  14. i'm sorry, but i can't let this go.. it's thought not thourght.

    oh.. and i dig sir fansalot's false start/restart idea. although you could only do it once or twice. do it as a precursor to a proper acr or something perhaps? (ie. one with magical gestures and faerie tales :D)
     
  15. Very Good point, however the would like to point out that, not one type of patter will suit every individual as everyone has their own system of beliefs and intellects. So for example if you are targeting a skeptic, and if you were to use a dejavu patter, it may seem completely irrelevant and even insulting to someones intelligence. I have to say there are people out there that understands that there is no such thing as magic, and others that do. I occasionally get asked wow is that sleight of hand or is that magic, as some spectators do differentiate between both.

    My overall point is that patter should not be 'fixed' it should adapt to you situation. So prior to a performance I like to talk to people, find out their belief systems and re-engineer my patter to suit that situation. For people who are more skeptical I like to point out that it is sleight of hand, and thus show that what I do is ability and not some hocus pocus stuff. I believe this complements their intelligence a bit better.
     
  16. I would never tell someone I do "magic" I would "do something weird" or "look at this its weird", with my patter before I know its a bit ridiclious but thats good, they think its a trick deck? well they can say that about every single card trick in the world (almost) but what I love about the acr is when I do it people (about 99%) think I just have two of the same card, I let them look at the cards and then its a miracle because instead of thinking about lots of differant ways it could be done they think about one...

    and then when they realise its wrong they cant go back in their thoughts, because thats was THE explanation, that was how it must of been done... exept it wasnt, then the only way forward for them to think is what you just told them. so now they realise it "must" have been you beleiveing and concentrating, was it magic? well I dont know, so maybe they ask me, and I would tell them to think about it, what did I do? well they already know you didnt do anything, so it must be magic!
     
  17. Randomwrath - I think your presentation is creative, but I am also concerned that if you don’t play it as an analogy, or tongue in cheek, that it almost appears a bit like I discussed in my thread above...going too far to sell an idea that seems hollow. For example, there is a difference in saying it’s LIKE a thought popping to the top of your head...and the card IS the thought popping to the top of your head. Either way, I am not sure if it IS like that, as the effect is the “idea” going to the middle or wherever, and coming to the top – not sure if this analogy is a great fit, but I can see how it would work. This brings up a great issue with “patter”, how often do we use stories with no real basis to fit the effect – versus coming up with a presentation and finding an effect to match. Randomwrath, thanks for sharing.

    TeeDee – I have heard guys use presentations like yours – I take issue with a few things in it, and again, we are only thinking critically, not trashing – as all presentations work on some level. That being said, I find you violate a similar concept as Randomwrath – your presentation has no real truth to it for starts, all the moves you use, a gambler wouldn’t...not even the way you handled the card. Moreover, it reminds them that the entire thing is sleight of hand. This, for me, takes away from the magic of the ACR – as it should look like you do nothing, and despite your best efforts to be fair...it still comes to the top. This is why Daryl won FISM – as it wasn’t for a clever presentation, but a build to make it more and more fair...until he “sleight of hand proofs” the deck. Your “gambling” presentation does the opposite on many levels. Also, it doesn’t really engage the audience, as it is now a demonstration style presentation.

    Dylan – again...same as above...I am not sure of your character, but regardless – I think magic is for intelligent people. Intelligent people usually make more money, and they can pay you more – with that being said – I will ask you this. Imagine you were the audience. If someone used your patter on your, would you really suspend your disbelief to think what he is saying is plausible? That the card has energy left on it? Also, your patter seems self narrative for the most part, which many will say is a mistake – for the audience can see what you are doing...and telling them only serves as mouth noise. Again, please don’t take this personally, the idea is to challenge all we do and see gaps – and what we can do to fill them if we choose to participate – thank you for sharing your approach.

    Dleerium – I appreciate your response – thanks. I think your concept of making a lucid presentation that can adapt to your crowds may appear like a good idea – but I do have a few questions for you. First, would you not agree that it would take many presentations to fit the multitude of different beliefs? Also, do you think that you could prepare that many PROFESSIONAL presentations that didn’t seem too wordy, jumbled or sloppy for even more than a few different groups? Lastly, and perhaps more importantly, even though you are playing on their beliefs...it is your magic, and it makes NO statement on who you are or your stance on magic. You are in control and it is your journey to take them on. PM me and we can talk some examples from my own work. However, you may not need them, just realize that it is great you want to connect with them, but this shouldn’t always change your message. A TV show doesn’t change it’s premise based on it’s viewers. You might make your ACR about the resurrection of Christ...it will turn many off...appeal to others...BUT you have made a stance on your message. This is closer to art than trying to come up with something that fits the scene...also, it allows for more of a clean and polished presentation. This isn’t to say stayed “fixed” as I see presentations more like Jazz music – I know how I am going to start and finish...the road in between...although I have a path, can be different based on the situation. So as much as I agree with you, I still believe that a flexible fixed path may be better than a fixed or overly malleable presentation style.

    Blah Blah – good line of thinking – and I don’t mind leading people down the wrong path – however, having them challenge you like that mid-effect can ruin the flow. A great idea is to remove all those doubts BEFORE they get there...so beat them to it. Loosely, here shuffle the back (so without saying you are actually letting them examine the pack) ...great you shuffled them, please go through them and take out one card...notice they are all different...take out one – (they take the two of clubs) but we want to make one REALLY different...more unique than ANY other two of clubs in the world. Sign your name on it...the only two of clubs in the world with your name on it. Now when they see it again, they can’t find a solution, you have removed them. Also, if your technique is solid – they should have no idea. Lastly, I wouldn’t want to say what you are doing is “weird”, it is what is it – ask them if they want to see something they will never forget? What would you rather see...something weird or something unforgettable?

    Glad this thread is picking up – let’s all continue to look at what we are doing – what can we do better. Are your ACR routines connecting or is there an emotional hook (remember, emotional hook just means they need to identify with it)? Are you presenting it in a way they can identify and willingly suspend their disbelief? Does your presentation fit your character – ex. If you are a magician, why are you doing a gambling demo? NOTE THIS – although there are many ways to present magic, we must realize that just like there are bad ways to do sleights or technique poorly, there are bad ways to present magic. We don’t all have to say the same thing, but I think there are some “golden rules” in presentation (obviously or books like Strong Magic wouldn’t exist) and that we can use the same concepts to improve different presentations.

    Thanks for everyone that is taking part in this – I see some real growth, and more to come. Keep it up!
     
  18. My whole performance character is built around demonstrating sleight-of-hand rather than performing something supernatural. I take great pains to take my effects away from "fooling" or "tricking" the audience, rather apparently giving them some insight into the possibilities of two hands and ordinary mundane objects. I think the audience can still have the experience of magic, the astonishment, the sense of the impossible happening right before their eyes. Everyone knows its sleight-of-hand, or they may think I use a trick deck. I allow the participant to handle the deck, shuffle it etc., and still make the card rise to the top, proving that however secure they think they are, however many measures they've taken to protect themselves and make conditions fair, they can still be cheated. I think this can create tension and conflict, and therefore drama, which I don't believe is inherent in a card "magically" rising to the top of the deck.

    I don't want to imply that I did nothing, and yet the card rose to the top of its own accord. Where does that leave me? It leaves me answering the question "How did you do that?", which is a death-knell for strong presentation. I want my audience to move past that question, to understand that I'm using esoteric, underground sleight-of-hand techniques, and to therefore allow themselves to play their own role in the piece of intimate theatre that I'm trying to create.

    I don't think it's important that I stick rigidly to gambler's techniques when I use a gambling presentation. Technique comes a distant second to story in my book. Anyway, at a real card table, a gambler would use one or two moves over the course of an evening and play fairly for the rest of the time. Just because I may demonstrate, or apparently demonstrate, many more techniques, that doesn't detract from the "truth" of my presentation.

    And I 100% disagree that this presentation is not engaging. If you manage your audience correctly this can be the most exciting and involving presentation of sleight-of-hand with cards. Laymen are familiar with cards from gambling and the card table. Therefore, starting from this point means you can take them on a journey with you, rather than introducing a deck of cards and presenting them as some kind of arcane object. You anchor the prop to associations they already have.
     
  19. #39 blahblah, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2008
    okay, well when I (would) do the routine (I dont actually say it like that it was just an idea, I dont have enough time with street magic), I try and do the magic so that while everyone knows its just sleight of hand, its "special" sleight of hand, so "special" that its not even real sleight of hand, so what is it? well its whatever the magician says... I like your patter but I normally perform in a place where their isnt much time (like the street) or its to loud or whatever...

    Im making a video right now, I do a bit of busking/street magic in it so ill show you, when ive edited it and added in the extras of magic :)

    the thing about magic though is people WANT to be able to believe, so they almost always challenge it in their head or (if they are "hecklars") by actually asking or taking the cards, so when they do that (which they will) its up to the magician to show people that it wasn't just a piece of wire or a magnet or whatever your doing. so thats why my patter is so that people DO question it, then they realize its not, and now their able to believe it was "real" and then their happy from the magic because its "real" to them...

    if you look at the wounded trailer you can see when he performs for that group of 5/10 people they laugh and scream, they laugh because its real magic to them, the scream because its gory...

    ill try and get the video up by today or tomorrow
    :)
     
  20. Hey guys, I want to share with you about my performance with some girls yesterday.....


    I was in a concert(free) with some friends who knew I do magic, so they asked me to do magic for random people... I said OK! so the first we encountered were some girls so here is how my presentation went...

    Me: Hi! How are you?

    Them: We are fine , how are you?

    Me: Great! Do you mind if I show you something?

    Them:Umm, What is it?

    Me: You will see.. (takes deck of cards out ) can I ask you something?

    Them: yes, go ahead

    Me: Do you have a Boyfriend?

    Them: *giggle* Noooope.

    Me: That's great ,because right here ( I show here all the cards) I dont have a deck of cards, I have 54 guys who are dying to go out with you...so, pick yourself a boyfriend!

    * the routine starts*

    I want to self analyse my performance and I want to do it with the following things...

    Presentation: I am a nice and friendly guy so the first thing I do is present me in a nice manner, I also consider a nice thing if they tell me their names at the beggining, and when they do that I kinda shake hands with them( I think this starts to create a little more personal connection with the spectator, its just not the performer and the spectator you know what I mean?)

    Other thing that I dont do, is that I never tell them Im about to do magic, I let them to discover that themselves because when I perform the first visual trick, it hits them harder, because they are not expecting it...

    Repeating Actions: I do not like tha way some guys go: "And I put your card in the middle and I push it flush and it comes out to the top!"so Im just letting them discover all those things out by themselves, Also the storyline is a indirect way of telling them what's happening...

    Hype: one of my errors yesterday is that sometimes I do not give the necessary build up that the tricks deserve... Obviusly im not like" yep it changed! It changed again!" I try to build up the tricks But at the end I think I could have gotten stronger reactions if I would have hyped the tricks more...

    So overall I got a decent performance and I aplyied some of the things we have talked it here, so my presentation developed a bit more...


    Thanks and have a nice day:D
     

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