Magic vs. Religion

Sep 30, 2008
310
0
34
Pittsburgh
Hey guys, it's been a while since I've posted here, I wanted to throw out a topic for discussion that I've come across lately.

A while back I was in a youth group meeting and the topic of the night was Exodus 20:3; Do not have any other Gods before me, one of the 10 commandments. Some people might not realize it right away, but this is the commandment that causes many people to protest things such as Harry Potter, or similar sorcery based movies/books. It is believed that this "Sorcery" is the same thing as believing in another God, therefore, watching and supporting something like that is essentially blasphemy.

Now, I am technically Catholic, but I do not necessarily believe everything that Catholics believe. The people around me knew that I performed magic on a regular basis, so I thought I would bring that up as a means to further the discussion. After a few harmless arguments, I found out that they had assumed that I had never actually tried to convince anyone that what I was doing was actually magic, and that it would be going against my religion if I were to ever perform magic without clarifying that what I am doing is not in fact magic, and that there is some trick behind how I do what I do. I will agree with them to a point and say that it is very rare that someone fully believes that I have magical powers, but if everything I did was approached with the idea that there is just a trick behind everything I do, it would not have the same effect.

Through my experiences the best reactions from people come when they start questioning reality, where what just happened is so impossible that they do not necessarily assume magical powers, but the wonder and awe that they have is so great that it goes far beyond the idea of "just a trick."

So what's my point here? My point is not to call out the ideas and beliefs of different people and decide who's right and who's wrong, but to bring up that idea of how you approach the magic that you do for people. I know people here range from all different beliefs and religions, including atheists. This applies to you too though, because despite what the magician may believe, there are a ton of people out there that believe the idea of magic and wizardry is wrong and a sin to support. If you knew the person you were performing for had this belief, would you approach your magic differently? Probably, because someone like this is likely to have a better time if you weren't trying to get them to question reality, because someone like that will just never do that. Then what if you didn't know, and you end up offending someone because they don't appreciate the idea of real magic because it goes against their religion. However, this person could also be the type of person who, if you perform correctly for, would have an incredibly memorably moment as he or she starts questioning reality based on what you just did.

Thoughts, Ideas, I'd like to hear what some of you guys think or have come across with this matter :)

-Kevin
 
Oct 15, 2008
826
0
Tennessee
If im showing someone a trick and they have that belief that it's a sin, ill just stop. I'm not going to try to convince them one way or another. I'm not trying to get people to believe something that don't want to. I'm just trying to get that one moment where, they question reality, and question if what just happened is possible.
If there's no way to get that moment out of someone because or their religion, then i won't perform for them.
Simple as that.
I don't know if that answered the last question, but i guess what i'm saying is.
No, if i know they have that belief i wouldn't change anything.
If they say they don't like this, or try to tell me whats right and wrong i will not be mean or rude i just say "Well I'm sorry that you feel that way"
and be done with it.

I'm of the state of mind that people can believe whatever they want to, as far as religion goes.
I really don't care, as long as you're not pushing it on me.
I personally think if someone thinks being or calling yourself magician, illusionist, psychic etc, is a sin. They are narrow minded, and kind of stupid. But of course I'm not going to go around telling them that, and I'm not going to try to make them believe something different.

I don't know where i was going with that, so take what you want from it.
 
Dec 23, 2007
1,579
4
36
Fredonia, NY
even before i read this i thought from the title "close this now" after reading it i think "CLOSE THIS NOW FOR THE LOVE OF HUMANITY" this kind of topic will only invite fighting and discord. I dont think it will benefit anyone as my Lawyer's Jewish Mayoral candidate always said, "don't ever talk about politics, religion, or law".... speaking of which.. haven't talked to her in awhile....
 
Oct 15, 2008
826
0
Tennessee
I agree, I was going to say that. But i figured i go ahead and answer the question before people start ripping each other's throats out
 
Sep 20, 2009
445
83
We all know this ends up in fights and pointless lashes at each other.

to throw my change into the pot...

i don't believe in "god" or "Jesus" or Christianity or Catholicism or Judaism any of the mainstream religions

my path is Occult, Black and Grey Magick real Psychic powers and that lot, so i don't know how much i can add to this discussion if it's based on the above

but if you let something control you that much that you wont do something because it's "against" a storybook then that's just brainwashing
 
Sep 30, 2008
310
0
34
Pittsburgh
even before i read this i thought from the title "close this now" after reading it i think "CLOSE THIS NOW FOR THE LOVE OF HUMANITY" this kind of topic will only invite fighting and discord. I dont think it will benefit anyone as my Lawyer's Jewish Mayoral candidate always said, "don't ever talk about politics, religion, or law".... speaking of which.. haven't talked to her in awhile....

I understand the controversy that the beliefs can bring up, which is why i tried to make it about the approach people take to magic, and not the beliefs themselves

People react to the way you perform based on SO many different things, not just their beliefs, religion was more of an example to lead to a broader discussion of approach
 
for starters people protest harry potter because it has strong references to magic, not that magic is another god. It's just the christian god doesn't like magic.

secondly, I don't think this subject should be discussed on the forum. Very few people can handle a mature discussion about religion here.
 
Aug 25, 2008
19
0
Needs of the Corps
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not, none will suffice." I don't bother trying to alter anyone's beliefs with my magic...in my opinion, that's just plain old manipulation. I prefer do go the way of the professionals ala Osterlind and Banachek and explain that the illusions are created through psychological, not psychic means. A lot more believable if you ask me. But do what suits your personality. If you're into the occult stuff, by all means use that to your advantage in creating your persona. It's just not for me personally.


But to answer your question fully and succinctly, a magician's job is to entertain. Approach these religious types as an entertainer and they are far less likely to push you away as "that demon with a deck of cards"

Just Keeping it Real
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
35
Raleigh, NC
But to answer your question fully and succinctly, a magician's job is to entertain. Approach these religious types as an entertainer and they are far less likely to push you away as "that demon with a deck of cards"

The question that is asked most often, if a magician's job is to entertain, why do magic? It's hard to learn and not as rewarding as similar disciplines that also entertain, both monetarily and status wise.

As far as magicians and religion meshing, do what you want and believe what you want to believe. Know when to draw the line (murder, not so great) and respect other peoples beliefs (you know, the people who don't want to be murdered, don't murder them). All in all it's usually great to gauge an audience with an open-ended question. "Are any of you religious or spiritual?" You can quickly find the conservatives and people who are proud (usually protective) of their beliefs because they will say it out loud "I'm Christian" or "Yeah, I totally believe in spirits and stuff..." Know which jokes will offend which groups and don't use them.

Ask them about their views on magic, if they're okay with it and if they want to see some. Magicians in the Bible were looked down upon because they were trying to prove they had supernatural abilities given from 'heathen' gods...hey sounds a lot like the people who fake it today!

All in all this thread should stay open, like your mind (not too far open, your brain might fall out) and just remember-if someone wants to believe what you do is trickery (imagine that...) then let them, maybe show them one more and see what they think or say, but don't force it on them (they're not forcing their non-belief on you! Don't believe in the magic you do!!!!)
 
Apr 5, 2009
874
1
29
Illinois
Heres what i'll say,

I see no problem with performing magic, and i haven't met anybody who questions me when i do perform. i've had one chuckle-head try to pick apart my faith cause i told him being gay is wrong. then completely ignoring my reasoning and telling me i could cover it up however i wished. the dude was an idiot. and he's not who i plan to talk about here.

First of all. I've never caused anybody to question reality. i perform i entertain, i make them wonder about if what they saw really happened. i've never had anybody doubt gravity because i made something levitate. but people will question their eyes.

do you know what i'm saying? everybody watching knows its all sleight of hand, they know i'm making it happen and that is not really magic

but i manage to suspend that when performing, my spectators seem to be able to relax, and watch, wonder about the method, when they can't come to a suitable explanation, they dont suddenly believe that i can suspend gravity for my own gain. they just seem to enjoy not knowing how it works, enjoying how what i say corresponds to something impossible happening.

i'm not trying to make people believe what i do is real.

i will often use magic as a sort of visual aid to an idea. i use clutch to tell the story of humanity, and i also use rubber bands to do the same thing. i use coin to demonstrate temptation.

understand?


this is probably a very helter skelter mish mashed mixed up post. i apologize. i may end up taking it down.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 3, 2007
150
0
36
Kentucky - Temporarily
Seriously???

You know, I wish we could all have a civil, respectful discussion about this, because it is a legitimate concern. But we can't because, as mentioned, people can't act like grown-ups.

I've already read at least 2 posts that are just literally ignorant and void of any opinion worth giving. Somebody just close this thread before it inevitably goes awry more than it already has.

Liderc, learn to contribute to a discussion without being condescending and insulting to other people's choice of belief. Mr. Draven, your first post confuses me deeply. The Christian god doesn't like magic???

Do you know the guy? Where does that come from?

When you criticize, you have to back it up.

Un-frickin-believable.

|| sean ||
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
35
Raleigh, NC
Have taken this down because it was irrelevant to the thread, am now resolving in PM's

Mods may remove this if they feel the discussion can be furthered.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Aug 25, 2008
19
0
Needs of the Corps
Well RikAllen....
If your job as a magician is not as an entertainer, what would you call it? Certainly you want your audience to be amazed, in awe and wonderment, no? All those things fall under the entertainment category in my opinion. Maybe you would prefer the art category, but magic exists in both...

I would also have to disagree with you on the learning magic is difficult thing...I would go with the "easy to learn, hard to master" adage. And I wouldn't say magic is any harder to live off of than any other entertainment profession, the hard part is finding your niche/venue.

Not trying to come off pushy or anything, just interested in why you think magic is not supposed to entertain.
 
Sep 3, 2007
150
0
36
Kentucky - Temporarily
You're lack of opinion insults the thread more than Draven's light-hearted jokes. Anyone who knows him on these forums knows he's not going to really get into it over religion, as most people don't want to hear (or respect) his views.

With that said, report the post if you deem it wrong, and then post something to further the topic, like a grownup, or don't say anything at all.

So I guess you're the hero huh? I've committed some atrocius travesty and it's your duty to just step up and teach me a lesson is it?

See, your post makes no sense. I criticized, and backed up my criticism, thus, I am completely justified in offering my opinoin, as I did, and I am completely entitled to do so. So, Mr. RikAllen, what exactly is the problem? And why do you feel the need to address me specifically when I was making general comments, AND my comment to Mr. Draven was not negative, but out of curiosity. In other words, I didn't get the joke.

Furthermore, I haven't insulted anyone, or attacked anyone. I gave my own opinion on everyone else giving their opinion. Liderc has an issue with communicating in civil discussion. I addressed that. You have an issue with involving yourself unnecessarily for reasons I don't know.

Lastly, you failed to criticize effectively because you resorted to insult. And you contradict yourself when commanding me to report posts I don't appreciate by not doing that yourself when calling attention to my post. You should have messaged me in private.

And please, don't talk to me about acting grown-up. In fact, how about you mind your own business from now on and stick to situations that CONCERN YOU.

|| sean ||
 
Dec 23, 2007
1,579
4
36
Fredonia, NY
pretty sure draven was only half joking as the position of the Catholic Church on magic is well known and documented throughout history.... just saying

now can we close this thread before it deteriorates any further?
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
35
Raleigh, NC
JMastaUSMC,

It is supposed to entertain, rather you're supposed to be entertaining. But that's not why you do magic. Jugglers juggle because they love it, and it's entertaining to watch. But what they do can't bring the same reactions magic can. So why magic?

By learn, I do mean every aspect of being a great magician, learning tricks makes you 'special' at best, doing magic makes you unique and remembered. Why not acting, as you have to learn it anyway to be a magician, or become a singer (I can't sing personally), pick up and instrument...anything can entertain. Laughing babies on youtube entertain millions, why did you chose magic?

It is entertainment, and can be art (but isn't in and of itself), but it's also something more. To say you do it for entertainment is correct, but I can entertain dozens of people with stories and jokes...I made the choice to learn magic. It leaves people knowing who I am, and quite often not sure of what I might be capable of. Entertainment can be found through the Amazing Johnathan, he doesn't inspire wonderment though (one of my favorites to watch though).

I'm off to bed, but that would be why I mentioned it. I'm sure you've thought about it too, but categorizing it as 'entertainment' is what event planners do, if you don't think more of it then you'll never enjoy it as much as the people who are amazed at it's hidden powers. (yeah I said it, magic..which in our case is sleight of hand...has powers...don't judge me)

Seeing as how this isn't directly related you can PM me and we can talk about it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ever heard of Gospel Magic or the Fellowship of Christian Magicians? How about Bro. John Hamman?

I was actually referring to magic in the pegan, spell casting, witchcraft kind of sense. Not as in Illusionary entertainment.


Mr. Draven, your first post confuses me deeply. The Christian god doesn't like magic???

Do you know the guy? Where does that come from?

When you criticize, you have to back it up.

Un-frickin-believable.

|| sean ||

But of course. All you need to do is but ask. Now, do you want bible verses? I can provide them for you, or are you good to go with a little history reminder? However for most for the sake of argument allow me to once again reinforce that my earlier statement about the Christian god's adverse preference to magic (or Magick for sake of clarity) is strictly reserved for the kind of magic performed by witches and Pegan spell casting lot.

Now with countless witches burned at the stake by the Christian faith, more hung by the neck until dead for the mear suspicion of witchcraft, and while we're at it please don't let me forget to mention that lovely little group of blood thirsty jerks known as the Spanish Inquisition, surely you don't intend to tell me that you don't think the Christian dogma is anti-magic?

Now I can quote bible verses but I'll just stick with one from Revelations, for sake of time.
Revelation 21:8
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

I hope that will back up my point well enough for you Sean.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Heh, if I ever end up offending someone who believes what I do is a sin and an act against a "god" I will give myself a pat on the back. Unlike most, I consider the offense a plus one on my part because I successfully succeeded in my goal of portraying actual magic and have tricked my participants into thinking that what I am doing as a magician is actually some act of supernatural power. I will present things my way and acknowledged others suggestions.
 
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results