Mental vs Magic

There has been a bit of an uneasy rift between Mentalists and Magicians for a while. For example, look at Uri Geller and James Randi.

Some Mentalist proclaim that they don't use tricks to do their effects.
Some Magicians claim the same thing.

Ethically, are we as entertainers obligated to confess to our audiences that the effects they see are just illusions? Or do you feel the experience is heightened by the possibility that through ESP, Training, Meditation, Dark Secrets known only to X ancient civilization, etc, that our effects are made possible?

What do you think?
 
Aug 27, 2008
283
0
Tijuana bC
No I feel were obligated to let our audiences know that what we produce are illusions and nothing more. I feel thats better than taking them for fools and down right lie to them, although you may think its cool for the people to think your of another species or something like that, it is always much better to tell that you are proficient in the art of misdirection and slight of hand ( well in my opinion) you look like a person who actually cares about his magic and takes the time to perfect it and show it.
 
Nov 10, 2007
1,706
1
In my opinion it is ethical to say you are performing a trick not real magic. Usually though when someone asked me how it is done I say " its magic" sometimes I say "Its your decison what do you think it was".
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
I feel thats better than taking them for fools and down right lie to them, although you may think its cool for the people to think your of another species or something like that, it is always much better to tell that you are proficient in the art of misdirection and slight of hand ( well in my opinion) you look like a person who actually cares about his magic and takes the time to perfect it and show it.

The entire art is built on lies and deception. We're all learning different ways to fool spectators. It's assumed that the spectator doesn't honestly think you have super powers. It's kind of arrogant the way most magicians think they have to come out and include a disclaimer to the audience that what they do is just trickery.

If you just go out and perform, chances are people aren't going to think you are some superpowered being because you did cool things with a deck of cards. Instead, your audience goes into a performance knowing that sleight-of-hand and illusion is used. To come out to them and say, "Really, guys, this is only dexterity and clever illusion. I don't have real powers," to me, is what really seems like you're insulting the audience's intelligence - implying that they were stupid enough not to figure that out themselves.

The amount of power we THINK we have seems to greatly outweigh what we can actually do.

Are there some really powerful illusions out there which could be passed off as real? Absolutely: Saw, Thread, Wounded. Could a really strong presentation do the same thing with certain tricks? For really good showmen, yes, but it requires a REALLY GOOD presentation and a total conviction to an appropriate character. Could you mix the right presentation with the right tricks to fool someone into thinking you're some sort of bizarre magical being? Maybe, but that depends on the person you're performing for, what you do, the subtleties of the performance, your acting ability, the setting, the situation, your intention, the audience's willingness to believe - in other words, there's a LOT of factors involved, and it's really rare to come across.

How many of you can manage to do that? Or even try to?

If you want to respect the audience's intelligence, then don't go into a performance thinking you're so amazing or so mind-blowing that the spectators have no other option but to believe you're Dr. Manhattan in disguise. They know. They may not know how you did it, but they know what sleight of hand is. They know how an illusion works. They know its fake. They know what magicians are - deceptive showmen.

Instead, why not go into it with a little theater? Play the part of a con man, and embellish your act with stories of amazing deceptions and scams you've pulled off (probably tall tales, of course). Play the part of genius psychic, with a n intricate vocabulary and test-condition mentalism. Maybe play the part of wandering astonisher - your Paul Harris or your David Blaine. Make it interesting - provide a character. You are the show, not your tricks.
 
May 3, 2008
864
3
33
Singapore
www.youtube.com
i dont really see the rift...
the uri geller james randi thing happened only because geller kept claiming what he did was real, and not it the Derren Brown sense, but the I have paranormal abilities sense.
 
Quite possibly the best insight I've seen yet. Thank you for your input. I've been trying to wrap my head around this one for a bit now. Personally, I believe it is all about the spectator's experience and entertainment and not so much about us as magicians. However in my travels I've encountered some reall interesting people who ask me with a serious urnasty(sp?) weather or not certain TV celebrity magicians with a less than sub-atiquate vegas cirq show truely is the devil or possess super human powers. After I got a simular question to that for about the 100th time I started to wonder if a disclaimer was really needed. Or if this was just part of the course.

The entire art is built on lies and deception. We're all learning different ways to fool spectators. It's assumed that the spectator doesn't honestly think you have super powers. It's kind of arrogant the way most magicians think they have to come out and include a disclaimer to the audience that what they do is just trickery.

If you just go out and perform, chances are people aren't going to think you are some superpowered being because you did cool things with a deck of cards. Instead, your audience goes into a performance knowing that sleight-of-hand and illusion is used. To come out to them and say, "Really, guys, this is only dexterity and clever illusion. I don't have real powers," to me, is what really seems like you're insulting the audience's intelligence - implying that they were stupid enough not to figure that out themselves.

The amount of power we THINK we have seems to greatly outweigh what we can actually do.

Are there some really powerful illusions out there which could be passed off as real? Absolutely: Saw, Thread, Wounded. Could a really strong presentation do the same thing with certain tricks? For really good showmen, yes, but it requires a REALLY GOOD presentation and a total conviction to an appropriate character. Could you mix the right presentation with the right tricks to fool someone into thinking you're some sort of bizarre magical being? Maybe, but that depends on the person you're performing for, what you do, the subtleties of the performance, your acting ability, the setting, the situation, your intention, the audience's willingness to believe - in other words, there's a LOT of factors involved, and it's really rare to come across.

How many of you can manage to do that? Or even try to?

If you want to respect the audience's intelligence, then don't go into a performance thinking you're so amazing or so mind-blowing that the spectators have no other option but to believe you're Dr. Manhattan in disguise. They know. They may not know how you did it, but they know what sleight of hand is. They know how an illusion works. They know its fake. They know what magicians are - deceptive showmen.

Instead, why not go into it with a little theater? Play the part of a con man, and embellish your act with stories of amazing deceptions and scams you've pulled off (probably tall tales, of course). Play the part of genius psychic, with a n intricate vocabulary and test-condition mentalism. Maybe play the part of wandering astonisher - your Paul Harris or your David Blaine. Make it interesting - provide a character. You are the show, not your tricks.
 
Sep 1, 2007
165
0
I'm going to recommned you all pick up Richard Osterlind's Making Magic Real and Making Real Magic. This man will school you right!
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
38
Belgrade, Serbia
I have a question that is Mental vs Magic related:

In magic, when a friend or a spectator tells you to do that trick where the card rises to the top, you can always do it, and if you practice enough, you can do it invisible all the time...

My question is this; if a spectator approaches you as a mentalist, and tell you to guess what card or word or anything he is thinking of, can you do it "on the spot" to the same spectator who is expecting for his mind to be red?

Maybe i wasn't clear enough... Let's try it this way: If you saw a Derren Brown on the street, and told him "hey man, you are Derren Brown, common guess what card am i thinking of right now", could he (you) do it?

My point is, magician can repeat ACR, 2CM, Biddle, Triumph.... as many times as he likes to a one spectator because it all depends on a magician, even though spectator knows what to expect... Can the mentalist do the same thing, when a spectator is already in that protective state of mind and awareness?
And how do you cover it up if you can't do it?

Cheers
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
I have a question that is Mental vs Magic related:

In magic, when a friend or a spectator tells you to do that trick where the card rises to the top, you can always do it, and if you practice enough, you can do it invisible all the time...

My question is this; if a spectator approaches you as a mentalist, and tell you to guess what card or word or anything he is thinking of, can you do it "on the spot" to the same spectator who is expecting for his mind to be red?

Maybe i wasn't clear enough... Let's try it this way: If you saw a Derren Brown on the street, and told him "hey man, you are Derren Brown, common guess what card am i thinking of right now", could he (you) do it?

My point is, magician can repeat ACR, 2CM, Biddle, Triumph.... as many times as he likes to a one spectator because it all depends on a magician, even though spectator knows what to expect... Can the mentalist do the same thing, when a spectator is already in that protective state of mind and awareness?
And how do you cover it up if you can't do it?

Cheers

An In-Character answer:
"What I can do, it doesn't work the way you think it does. It's not always on. When I'm performing, it's because I've spent the last few weeks doing nothing but meditating / practicing my psychology / attempting to move small objects / reading a friends' mind / gathering up the will and inner strength / whatever. If I could just read minds in an instant, well, I wouldn't be here, would I? It's in a much smaller capacity than you might think."

Then, smirk and say, "I could make a guess though."

An Out-of-Character answer:
"Actually, I've been working on something just like that, but it's not ready. It's going to be impressive when it's done, though. How about you come to my next performance at (shameless plug goes here) and I'll use you, specifically, with that very same card you're thinking of."
 
Mentalism doesn't function the same way magic does all the time. Sure Mentalist have their gaffs and tricks the same as a magician, but most of the more hard hitting mental effects rely strongly on psychology and a whole host of other little nuonces(sp?) that all add up to a bigger picture. So not everything works on everyone 100% of the time.

Since this post isn't designed to be an expose of the mentalist I will leave it at this: To answer your question directly a talented and educated mentalist who has taken time to study his craft should be able to perform something impromptu and failing that would have enough sub-rutines and excuses to bow out while saving face.
 
Nov 27, 2008
28
0
Pittsburgh, PA
Ethically, are we as entertainers obligated to confess to our audiences that the effects they see are just illusions?

I believe that the average audience is willing to go along with the fact that they are being deceived if its in good fun. If it is truly meant to deceive them into believing something that it is not, then they feel cheated or lied to.

Perception creates reality.

With that being said, I do not feel as though going out of ones way to convince the spectator that they are there only to be entertained is necessary or ethical. Thats why they are interested!

Or do you feel the experience is heightened by the possibility that through ESP, Training, Meditation, Dark Secrets known only to X ancient civilization, etc, that our effects are made possible?

If its part of your presentation and if it adds to the effect and if its in good fun - sure. Why not find a middle ground, explain little of your abilities, and let it be an entertaining mystery?
 
Nov 27, 2008
28
0
Pittsburgh, PA
My question is this; if a spectator approaches you as a mentalist, and tell you to guess what card or word or anything he is thinking of, can you do it "on the spot" to the same spectator who is expecting for his mind to be red?

Maybe i wasn't clear enough... Let's try it this way: If you saw a Derren Brown on the street, and told him "hey man, you are Derren Brown, common guess what card am i thinking of right now", could he (you) do it?

My point is, magician can repeat ACR, 2CM, Biddle, Triumph.... as many times as he likes to a one spectator because it all depends on a magician, even though spectator knows what to expect... Can the mentalist do the same thing, when a spectator is already in that protective state of mind and awareness? And how do you cover it up if you can't do it? Cheers

It can be done, however, the mentalist would more than likely need more information to go on. They would have to take control of the situation and get you to give up more of that information that they need. Their proficiency at doing this would depend largely on their ability.

Also, the state of mind that you referenced is the conscious mind. It is much harder to hide the reactions of the subconscious mind (which come out through physiological micro-signals), especially when investing so much conscious effort into trying not to.

As far as covering it up, again, take control of the situation and turn it into something that you can work with. Magi or mentalist, you need to be in control of your performance at all times.

If that doesn't work, ask 'em to pick a card instead ; )

........or maybe use an invisible deck - in all seriousness.
 
May 19, 2008
448
0
manchester
intresting question - the answer is just what you think it is, if you see derren brown im not amazed that he can have these magical powers, im amazed that I could do this, everyone COULD do this, but he can when everyone cant (If that makes sense)

what I mean is withouth saying its magical he makes tests and conditions that amaze us that a normal human being can do this, a normal person can create these illusions.

If you see a stage psychic then (normall) I would feel patronised. this person gets all these people to a theater, charges us maybe £5 or something, stands in front of us, and gets people to come on stage and be told about their dead relations (or whatever the pyshic says hes doing).
basiccly - I pay money for you to stroke your ego telling us how YOU can comunicate with the dead, and then go and show us a magic trick to prove it.
I mean obviously a good performer can make the ride less painfull but still, its lost the game - the pyschic is just getting us to pay him so he can prove that he may have a nice trick.

I think magic is more of a game, if its serious or not it doesnt matter, but its a game, and what makes magic so lovely is that the audiance is the star, I think saying that you have powers takes away from it...

but it is intresting that some performers still get reactions and are succsesfull even though they claim "superpowers"

and toby - their are lots of ways to do that, (pyscho force, billet switch, center tear, (derren brown trick) invisably deal (I dont have it though), invisible deck, some good sleight of hand...)
 
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