Presentation / Story Teller

[Toby]

Anybody else wants to join?
I think this thread should stay alive (not because i started it, lol), but because everyone can improve their presentation, and we can help each other...
It is hard to believe that everyone except me, has a perfect routine and a presentation of it...

 

[Mentalizing]

I find that the guy was being rude and even though was older seems to be somewhat inexperienced in performance skills or perhaps just like straight to point tricks, I'll leave that to your own opinion.

The biggest objection I have to performances is when they don't have a point to it. Ricky Jay is a good example, he is brilliant, skilled, funny, but also spreads his patter a bit to much for my liking. Unless you have great charisma then you should stick to tricks that patter evolves with it while you are demonstrating whatever trick.

My example would be my ACR routine, I go about using the Queen of Clubs or Spades and describing how it's a crazy girlfriend and when you dump her (put in middle) that you find her over your bed the next morning (card to top). This is how I demonstrate most of my card tricks. I think that people tend to exaggerate on the storytelling, making people believe that it is necessary for every environment and it must be done with a story that is prolonged for a enhanced effect.

When people say tell a story they don't mean be Ricky Jay and delve into nonsense that doesn't make any sense and it makes the trick a bit better. When you are practicing or performing your favorite trick then ask yourself what story or performance you can put on to make it more interesting than just a simple trick.

Praetoritevong made a great post, although people have different viewpoints on how to achieve the same goal the main objective is to listen to opinions and mold them into a moderate belief that fits you. So even though this guy told you to "get to the point" the best course of action would be to either tell him "you don't have to see this if you don't want", crack a joke, or just ignore him. My joke would be a little offensive but rude people deserve it. "If I wanted to hear from an a$$h0le I'd fart".

Good Luck on w/e you may do.

-Drew

 

[Toby]

My example would be my ACR routine, I go about using the Queen of Clubs or Spades and describing how it's a crazy girlfriend and when you dump her (put in middle) that you find her over your bed the next morning (card to top). This is how I demonstrate most of my card tricks. I think that people tend to exaggerate on the storytelling, making people believe that it is necessary for every environment and it must be done with a story that is prolonged for a enhanced effect.

Lovely. That is the story that everyone can relate to. Specially if you present it as a "psycho girlfriend", because everyone has had one. But can you tell us a little secret? What is your ending to this ACR? I can't think of how "pop out" move will fit. You can't say "I than folded/bended my girlfriend in half..." lol. I mean you could, but you would have to pull it off really good.

So even though this guy told you to "get to the point" the best course of action would be to either tell him "you don't have to see this if you don't want", crack a joke, or just ignore him. My joke would be a little offensive but rude people deserve it. "If I wanted to hear from an a$$h0le I'd fart".

Good Luck on w/e you may do.

-Drew

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. He didn't act like a jerk, he acted like a professor (no, not like Dai Vernon). He just suggested that people don't like long tricks, with a long story. He was trying to give me advice, so I couldn't just ignore him.
But, I'm totally with you guys, and I agree 100%.

Thanx Drew, good luck to you too.

 

[Mentalizing]

Ahhhh okay, trying to teach you seems better, yet also makes it seem like he doesn't know what he is talking about. I won't accuse anybody of anything because I don't quite understand what happened since I wasn't there.

The ending is card to mouth, I kinda go on saying about how she can be right under your nose and not even know about it. Pretty cool ending, but if anybody has any ideas they could share it would be appreciated.

 

[Toby]

Ahhhh okay, trying to teach you seems better, yet also makes it seem like he doesn't know what he is talking about. I won't accuse anybody of anything because I don't quite understand what happened since I wasn't there.

Well, it went like this. It was regular night at the Magic Club, and I decided to do that trick. I was using the Paul's patter, and about half way through, the guy told me "Get to the point. People don't like story telling, they love straight to the point tricks." And that kinda ruined the whole trick. I never said that he attacked me, or anything like that, I was just asking for opinion on the subject, because I always read about pattern, and presentation and story telling on this forums.
Hope that clears things a little bit.

The ending is card to mouth, I kinda go on saying about how she can be right under your nose and not even know about it. Pretty cool ending, but if anybody has any ideas they could share it would be appreciated.

Well, of the top of my head:
"But, even though she was a psycho, she kinda grew up on me a little bit, so I still carry her picture in my wallet" and then perform card to wallet
I will think about this thou, and we will make a great routine out of it...

 

[Mentalizing]

Hmmmmm... I like that but maybe with a slight twist. I have no clue how card to wallet is done and have never attempted to buy it, so when you say you have a picture of your current girlfriend you show the Queen of Hearts and then say but my girlfriend is still acting crazy and puts her picture in my wallet when I'm asleep. Then a switch occurs, again I have no idea how they work and I really like that idea of yours. The reason I like the story is because people talk about the patter afterwards and not necessarily the trick making interesting conversation.

The only problem is that I rarely do any card tricks unless that is all I have on me or if I am handed a deck. I specialize in mentalism so I hardly do card tricks anymore even though I love what people make with them.

Btw, almost forgot if what I am understanding then the proffesor doesn't quite know enough about magic or performing. Maybe he should go to forums and learn something because last time I checked people love stories and if you can make them have a point and make sense then there should be little reason they are not extended.

 

[Shakutau]

So in mentalism, is story telling involved at all?

 

[Toby]

Hmmmmm... I like that but maybe with a slight twist. I have no clue how card to wallet is done and have never attempted to buy it, so when you say you have a picture of your current girlfriend you show the Queen of Hearts and then say but my girlfriend is still acting crazy and puts her picture in my wallet when I'm asleep. Then a switch occurs, again I have no idea how they work and I really like that idea of yours. The reason I like the story is because people talk about the patter afterwards and not necessarily the trick making interesting conversation.

Hmmmmmm.... How about "But I still have picture of her in my back/inside pocket" and that solves a problem. Maybe it is not as hard hitting as the wallet, but it will hit hard.

Btw, almost forgot if what I am understanding then the proffesor doesn't quite know enough about magic or performing. Maybe he should go to forums and learn something because last time I checked people love stories and if you can make them have a point and make sense then there should be little reason they are not extended.

Yeah, I didn't really talk to him about that. I don't know much about his performing history. But he is very good technician, so that is why I tried to take his advice.

 

[Randy]

It probably had to do with the fact that they found it out to believe that a kid/teenager would know about anything that deals with poker. You kind of have to make the story believable. The reason it works for Paul Wilson is because he is well known and obviously learned things from cheats. Otherwise he wouldn't be on the real Hustle.

What you could do with the story is make it quick and say that when you were a kid, you're uncle or father used to plays cards a lot. Then just change up the story to whatever else you want.

As for Story telling not working. Well those "pro's" were most likely hobbyist and had no idea what they were talking about. Darwin Ortiz talks about this, He says that he can usually spot a TRUE pro over a hobbyist just by when he tells a story presentation. If the guy seems interested in his story or shares another story with him. He knows the guy is a pro. If the guy sits there fixated on the technical side of it. Then he's a hobbyist.

This is the one pot hole most hobbyist tend to fall into. They stop thinking in terms of what the audience sees and start carrying more about the technical side of it. Story presentation works for a ton of guys in the business. Rene Levland, Bill Malone. Darwin Ortiz. the list goes on and on. If people don't like story magic. Then how come they have booming careers and are the most wanted guys in the business.

 

[Toby]

It probably had to do with the fact that they found it out to believe that a kid/teenager would know about anything that deals with poker. You kind of have to make the story believable. The reason it works for Paul Wilson is because he is well known and obviously learned things from cheats. Otherwise he wouldn't be on the real Hustle.

What you could do with the story is make it quick and say that when you were a kid, you're uncle or father used to plays cards a lot. Then just change up the story to whatever else you want.

As for Story telling not working. Well those "pro's" were most likely hobbyist and had no idea what they were talking about. Darwin Ortiz talks about this, He says that he can usually spot a TRUE pro over a hobbyist just by when he tells a story presentation. If the guy seems interested in his story or shares another story with him. He knows the guy is a pro. If the guy sits there fixated on the technical side of it. Then he's a hobbyist.

This is the one pot hole most hobbyist tend to fall into. They stop thinking in terms of what the audience sees and start carrying more about the technical side of it. Story presentation works for a ton of guys in the business. Rene Levland, Bill Malone. Darwin Ortiz. the list goes on and on. If people don't like story magic. Then how come they have booming careers and are the most wanted guys in the business.

Hey Randy
First of all, I'm 22 years old, I will be 23 in 3 months, so I'm no kid and no teenager either. But i can see how you would assume that, because most of the forum members are teenagers. And I'm 6.6" (2 meters) tall, basketball/fitness coach, so I'm not small either

Second of all, that trick has nothing to do with poker. But that is really not important

But, with everything else, I totally agree. That is the best way to spot a hobbyist, or a stage manipulator (joke ). I think that he stopped performing magic, if he ever did. He is an architect, so magic is a hobby to him. At the time, I taught he was speaking from personal exp.

 

[Mentalizing]

So in mentalism, is story telling involved at all?

In some ways yes but for certain tricks it really depends. I try to make my mentalism believable but to a point of being extraordinary beyond belief, if that makes any sense.

My usual patter resides along the lines of hypnosis in everyday words and certain words that influence the mind to think towards a certain subject or number or card or w/e. People buy it but when I delve deeper into it then it makes it amazing and really has people thinking.

 

[Shakutau]

Would you be kind to offer a glimpse of this presnation Mentalizing?

 

[Randy]

You can story tell in Mentalisim. I know that Derren Brown will often do that for his shows to give context to some of his effects.

 

[Morgan B]

Hey Toby -

I just caught up with this thread.

A few things - we can talk more later, hope you don't see me as coming in to bash on you - just want to point out some things for your growth. Let me know how you feel.

First - do you realize that 2CM (which the proper name is "be honest what it is") and Dr Daily's Last Card trick are essentially the same effect? Just different methods? I think you should offer a variety of effects - not the same ones in a set.

Second - All the effects there is a point where the spectator is "wrong" and the set up is you versus them - even thought they are playing you. I would re-think the structure.

Third - I think after using the aces - you should finish with "Paul Wilson's Punch Too" as they will think you lost right away, and will end better - offering a different effect. You could say, I just have to find your card to win "your" money back.

Forth - don't like This and That - because it is a rip of "Colour Monte", everyone is doing it to death, and your entire set comes off as packet tricks. I just don't like it in this set.

Lastly - try to trim the fat on what you say. I can imagine not much is happening in the way of magic - it doesn't have to be a drawn out storty - the beginning, set the premise - then trim your words to only those with meaning and that create direction/interest/outcomes. More on this later, as this statement is a bit ambiguous - lastly lastly - read Scripting Magic and/or Strong Magic...delete the "or".

 

[Randy]

I don't think you should challenge the spectators or make them lose. Unless you are doing 3 card monte or Michael Skinners Ultra Monte. Other than that, Darwin Ortiz recommends that you tell them that you have an unfair advantage or that you change the routine around to where THEY win or that when you do win the challenge, you end up being a very humble winner.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

OK here's the deal. I think there could have been a couple of problems here. Now the retorical thing to say would be it's your presentation of the story that bored the hell out of your audience in which case just so happens to be magicians,....................SO quit freakin performing for magicians this crap ticks me off. Sorry little glitch in my main frame back to what I was saying. Patter and story telling is just as important as the trick itself but there comes a point that if the story isn't really telling a story and your words are just garble to get you to the finale then your audience will see right through that and tire out in a state like frenzy of cutting your tongue out and feeding it to Steerpike.

Stop a minute and think about what your saying. Am I making sense to my audience? Is what I'm saying conveying the feeling of something magical? Or am I in serious need of reading Maximum Entertainment. What I suggest to you is sit down for a moment and look back at your patter and look at its timing and insertion and determine if what your saying MAKES sense. Remember connecting with your audience is like paying your car insurance. It might feel a little uncomfortable at first but after its over you feel alot better.

Shane

 

[D ICE R]

My belief is a little different to most, everythign that you do is has to be intresting to the spectator and have the most important element 'context'. Without context all the audience can percieve is that either a. you are werid or b. you are boring and trying to hide that in a layer nonsense.

A great modern example is Derren Brown's Zamiel's Rose. It is a beautiful effect withan amazing emotional hook. Whislt these aspects make the world of difference the only reason that they work (in my opinion) is that opening line he said about how he got started in magic. It may have been a lie or it may have been true the spec does not care but the idea of a context is already built in. I mean I cannot count the number of times that I have been asked the question how did you get started in all of this. So in my eyes Derren atleast to his spectator either answered a question that was just asked or one that may have been asked just a few moments dow the road.

Then you look at something that has the same amount of patter ie. Ammar's preformance of Kannibal Kards and you see that yes the spec's enjoyed it however it was nowhere near as powerful as Brown's piece. Espically now days more often than not the audience will loook at you like you are an idiot and quickly lose intrest. Luckly that Ammar is a strong preformer and han hold their intrest.

However there are some effects where there stories make the effect. 'Sam the Bellhop' is one. There is an intresting thing about that routine and it is that the spectators know that they are watching a demonstartion of skill either with knowledge of false shuffles / cuts or some amazing ablility of riffle culling.

Now for my views; the spectator will be intrested in aslong as they see some gain for them. Say you do a gambling routine the spectators will look at that and see it as something of intrest maybe they too can learn this and cheat at cards. Or even look at one of Luke Jermay's preformances on the EI DVD. His magic castle piece went for 25 minutes and the audience was still drawn in, why? Because it logically built and secondly because he created a context for it to work.

So in every one of my piece's I try to create either some false explaination or a strong context about the piece to draw the audience in. So if I am going to tell them a story say longer than a paragraph it has to have at least one of two things.

1st. It has to be something the audience can relate to.

2nd. It has to be plausable.

One of my closers I often use is the apparent memorisation of a dictionary. Whilst as outlandish as it sounds I am sure there are people who have memorised the dictionary for the sole reason they wanted to. Is it plausable probably not in reality but after doing a series of other memory feats that the audience though was impossible it may be something that is achievable. Other pieces I will often use is very personal pieces that revolve around the spec like EI or The Invisible Stranger.

Toby you pieces with the Daley's Aces and 2CM have a nice theme of gambling and what not but it is not something that the audience can always relate too. Plus the fact that you always win looses some of the excitment. However the idea of the ambitious card with the premise of the returning ex is intresting, would it fit my style no but none the less the audience can relate to it a lot more than simply being grifted.

 

[Toby]

Hey Toby -

I just caught up with this thread.

A few things - we can talk more later, hope you don't see me as coming in to bash on you - just want to point out some things for your growth. Let me know how you feel.

First - do you realize that 2CM (which the proper name is "be honest what it is") and Dr Daily's Last Card trick are essentially the same effect? Just different methods? I think you should offer a variety of effects - not the same ones in a set.

Yes, but they are also very different in my opinion, because Dr Daily's use 4 cards, and 2CM uses 2 cards. And in Daily's spectator see Aces switch place with other two Aces, while in 2CM Aces switch place with 2 cards they never saw.

Second - All the effects there is a point where the spectator is "wrong" and the set up is you versus them - even thought they are playing you. I would re-think the structure.

Yeah, I can see your point there. But in my presentation, I try to make it look that only I lost, and that the spec are only helpers to tell the story, while magic is happening in their hands, and have participation in effects. But, can you tell me what structure would you suggest me?

Third - I think after using the aces - you should finish with "Paul Wilson's Punch Too" as they will think you lost right away, and will end better - offering a different effect. You could say, I just have to find your card to win "your" money back.

Yeah, sounds like a great closure effect. I will try to incorporate it. Thanx.
Oh, and, you know it is MY money that got lost, not spectators, because I keep pulling out money out of MY pocket after every faze.

Forth - don't like This and That - because it is a rip of "Colour Monte", everyone is doing it to death, and your entire set comes off as packet tricks. I just don't like it in this set.

Yes, but my spectators are seeing it for the first time, and I got some of the best reactions with that trick. But, can you tell me what should I do about it? Thanx

Lastly - try to trim the fat on what you say. I can imagine not much is happening in the way of magic - it doesn't have to be a drawn out storty - the beginning, set the premise - then trim your words to only those with meaning and that create direction/interest/outcomes. More on this later, as this statement is a bit ambiguous - lastly lastly - read Scripting Magic and/or Strong Magic...delete the "or".

I completely agree with that, I also think that I have too many words, so i will try to trim that. You can also trim it if you want
About Scripting Magic and Strong Magic, I kinda have a problem with getting material on the house, because Strong Magic which cost around 40$ I think, it will cost me around 150-200$ to get it delivered to my house

Toby you pieces with the Daley's Aces and 2CM have a nice theme of gambling and what not but it is not something that the audience can always relate too. Plus the fact that you always win looses some of the excitment. However the idea of the ambitious card with the premise of the returning ex is intresting, would it fit my style no but none the less the audience can relate to it a lot more than simply being grifted.

It is ME that always looses. I know that the spectators are holding the cards, but it is MY money that got lost, and I always relate to audience by saying "yes, I said that too" or "yes, I also thought that Spades were on top, but...", if you know what I mean.
I know it is not perfect routine, I don't even think it is good, but that is why I made this thread
I just wanted to have this gambling/monte routine with every step more impossible than the previous, therefore is the gradation of 4,3,2,1 cards. And those are the only effects that I know of with 4 (Daly's), 3 (This and That) and 2 (2CM) cards...

 

[D ICE R]

It is ME that always looses. I know that the spectators are holding the cards, but it is MY money that got lost, and I always relate to audience by saying "yes, I said that too" or "yes, I also thought that Spades were on top, but...", if you know what I mean.
I know it is not perfect routine, I don't even think it is good, but that is why I made this thread
I just wanted to have this gambling/monte routine with every step more impossible than the previous, therefore is the gradation of 4,3,2,1 cards. And those are the only effects that I know of with 4 (Daly's), 3 (This and That) and 2 (2CM) cards...

Nice idea with the 4,3,2,1 thing I did not pick up on that. Anyway the point I was trying to get across was that yes you lost your money but when you were showing what happened the spectators were always loosing. And I know that your story relates to them more than just a show off. But if you had a story like that I would come up with one of two conclusions.

1. Why do I care that you lost your money, and more to the point why are you showing me how you lost it?

2. If you can do this so well how the (4 letter word) did someone grift you out of your money.

I know that sounds like I am being a heckler but deep down people are only concerned with themselves. And the point I am trying to put forward is something that Phil Goldstien mentioned in his Nothing DVD; (paraphrasing)

'Whenever I go to see any preformer not just magician I ask myself three questions. Who is this person? What story are they trying to tell me? and was it worth my time? And the last one is usally the easiest to answer because they did not answer the first two.'

I see that you did answer those first two questions so you are already ahead of the curve, However the story you gave the spectators is that you got grifted buy someone. I just dont see that as being intresting thing to listen to.

 

[Toby]

Nice idea with the 4,3,2,1 thing I did not pick up on that. Anyway the point I was trying to get across was that yes you lost your money but when you were showing what happened the spectators were always loosing. And I know that your story relates to them more than just a show off. But if you had a story like that I would come up with one of two conclusions.

1. Why do I care that you lost your money, and more to the point why are you showing me how you lost it?

2. If you can do this so well how the (4 letter word) did someone grift you out of your money.

I know that sounds like I am being a heckler but deep down people are only concerned with themselves. And the point I am trying to put forward is something that Phil Goldstien mentioned in his Nothing DVD; (paraphrasing)

'Whenever I go to see any preformer not just magician I ask myself three questions. Who is this person? What story are they trying to tell me? and was it worth my time? And the last one is usally the easiest to answer because they did not answer the first two.'

I see that you did answer those first two questions so you are already ahead of the curve, However the story you gave the spectators is that you got grifted buy someone. I just dont see that as being intresting thing to listen to.

Yeah, i get you. And I agree. So basically, I need some form of closer that will either bring me all my money back, or some that the spectators will do that for me and thus, becomes winners of this situation...
Can you help me figure out what would that be?

Edit: I mean, the whole idea of this routine is for spectators to hear funny story and basically enjoy it. But I guess that bringing some emotional hook can help the situation even more.

Thanx for reply and for your help