Presentation / Story Teller

[Toby]

There is this Magic Club that i go to every friday. There are some young magicians, but mostly older/more experienced ones. One of them even attended FISM. And i was showing them a trick from Paul Wilson and Lee Asher's On the Road, the one with 4 of a kind that turns out as a magicians mistake, but have a unexpected ending.
Anywho, i started presenting the trick, and telling the story and what not, and all of those older magicians "jumped" at me to get straight to the point, and that people don't like story telling tricks, but more of straight to the point presentations. One of you guys even have that in their signature, quote from Maximum Entertainment, that people likes straight to the point tricks, and that all other than that is just a magical masturbation.
Ok, i have no problem with that. But than what is all this talk about presentation, and leading audience into the trick, building it up, making a story, and all of that stuff that is on this forums?

I'm sorry if there is already a thread on this, but i couldn't find it.

Thanx

 

[TeeDee]

I think people like "straight to the point tricks" if the tricks are more interesting than the performer, and traditionally, a lot of magicians haven't really bothered with such gimmicks as charisma and stage presence. This is not to say that effects shouldn't be simple, but ideally, the audience should be fascinated first by the performer and only then by the trick. If you find yourself having to bring out a deck of cards before anyone pays attention to you, you should probably rethink your understanding of theatre and performance. That's not a dig at you Toby, just a general comment.

My models of performance are Dai Vernon and Derren Brown. Dai Vernon said "the story is the interesting part of the trick", and Derren Brown has commented several times on the importance of creating a character and an aura before any magic happens. If you listen to Dai Vernon's stories, like in his fingerprint card trick, and his three card monte routine, they're anecdotes of his own life, meaning that his character and tricks are intertwined, and he's not just some guy who's learned some tricks. The same with Derren Brown. He's built up a performance persona from which all the effects he performs naturally flow.

Essentially, my view is that your stories and patter, your dialogue with the audience, should be the focus. The tricks should appear incidental, as if you wanted to give an example of what you were talking about, or to explain something more clearly. In this way, you are seen as a magician, a unique wonder-worker, rather than just some kind of automaton doing a bunch of tricks.

 

[praetoritevong]

EDIT: TeeDee brings up a very good point which I haven't considered before. In reading the following, keep in mind his advice where appropriate.

Hey mate. I think that that advice is true depending on circumstance. If you approach someone on the street, in my opinion, that would not be the time for a deep meaningful presentation trick with a beautiful emotional hook. If someone asks to see something, the first trick you perform, would not be suitable for a deep meaningful hooks.

Does this mean that alas, magic cannot be more? Of course not. Stories have their place. For example, say you sit down with two friends one afternoon. You happen to live in a highrise apartment. You sit down with them in your modern, stylish lounge room, two old friends, and you talk about life. The three of you are each sipping a beautiful crystal glass filled with three ice cubes and some smooth Baileys as the sun sets in the background. You introduce a pack of cards, and offer to show them something - your patter for your opening trick happens to coincide with what you've been speaking up and discussing just now. Is this a lovely moment to bring in a trick with great patter, and an emotional hook? Absolutely.

...Ok, so that was utterly cliched, and you'll probably never do that (incidentally, it reflects what I like doing, though). But you sort of get the point. Hopefully. If you're sitting down with mates, that would be a much better time to bring out presentation tricks. Stuff about stories and lessons and hooks. I mean, obviously, it depends on the presentation - if your patter is something about a magical rabbit called Toby which was looking for water and fell down a well - maybe not so much. But as long as you have a nice presentation, maybe something about how chance affects us, or whether snap decisions are better than cautious ones - that would be a nice time to throw that out there.

Let's look at other situations. Say you approach someone to show them a trick. You don't show them something with a huge story. But they stay and talk. You show them two or three more tricks, and they're still around. They talk to you about magic, how you got started, etc. You're becoming friends with them. Now would be a great time to pull out a really nice routine which has an emotional hook about how you got into magic - eg Tony Chang's version of his ACR. That's a great time for story tricks.

Or let's say that you have a stage gig soon. People come to expect magic. They want magic. They want the experience of magic. This should tell you something - you have much more freedom to play around with presentation, with storytelling, with themes. Now you can perform tricks with the theme of "Is it possible to read someone's mind" - and genuinely, genuinely have a discussion through your routine.

But if you tried this to someone as an opener? Not so much. They'll probably prefer straight to the point tricks. Visual magic to capture their attention. Why is this necessary? I think it has to do with expectation. If you approach someone and ask to show them something - you've essentially entered their space, disrupted their life, so they want to see something. So with this mindset, I think it's natural that they want to see something direct first.

Consider this anecdote, which is true. Some years ago Coke was concerned that Pepsi was winning in sip tests conducted by their company. After a long fiasco (the anecdote has been abridged ) Coke still maintained a lead in sales. The sip tests said that customers preferred Pepsi. But people bought more Coke. After some further tests, they discovered that when families were given cases of Coke and Pepsi to take home, the majority preferred Coke. Why is this so?

Pepsi won the sip test because it is sweeter in taste than Coke, which has a more citrus flavour. But, having a sip of sweetness is very different to having a whole bottle of sweetness. So when they were taken home, they preferred Coke, which wasn't as sweet overall. But Pepsi did win the short, brief, sip test.

So apply this to magic, where visual direct magic is Pepsi, the sweeter one that people love in short bursts. Then consider storyline presentation magic, which is Coke, which people prefer the flavour of overall, when considered at home. It's not a perfect anecdote, so don't take everything literally, but if you sort of look at this with a very critical eye, you can sort of understand my point.

So I guess my answer would be that both have their place. I will always prefer magic with hooks and meaning. But it's so important to know when to use them, or they won't have the impact you want. My Out of this World routine is perhaps one of the strongest in my repertoire, and it leaves people with the most amazing reactions - but only at the right context. In this sense, this is one reason I prefer stage/parlour magic to street close-up. I find more potential to be engaging and interesting and meaningful.

Magic can be more than just straight to the point visual wtf-ness, but it needs a context and it needs to be performed at the right time.

 

[Toby]

Thanx TeeDee for the reply, i hear you loud and clear.
Thank you too Praetoritevong. One of best reply I have red. Also, there is so much metaphor's and comparing, on these forums, but yours (with Pepsi an Magic), is by far the best. Thanx again for your reply.

 

[toyrobot]

Before you can attach a story to a trick, you need to be able to, well... tell stories.

It's not just about reciting a script and then punctuating it with an effect. It has to make sense and mesh with what's going on. It's odd - your story needs to be strong outside of the presentation, but it also needs to weave just perfectly with the effect. Proper presentation and writing is an art form unto itself, and storytelling has long been a difficult art to master. You need a rich knowledge of symbols and metaphors, you need to be able to act or at least recite the tale in an interesting fashion, instead of just casually stringing words along while your hands do something.

Aside from having the chops to tell a tale, you also need to match up the material with it. Some tricks just don't benefit from a story. The current trend is to make magic as visual as possible, which has a plus and a minus: our plus is that it brings us closer to letting the audience genuinely see the magic happen. Our minus is that it robs us of our need to verbally enhance the effect, since it speaks for itself. (Of course, you can tie a story to any trick, but sometimes the presentation suffers from it). Dissect the trick like you would a story. Find where you can pause or alter pace to match what you're saying. Extend the story or effect to drive a point home or heighten tension, and trim the fat to get to the parts that matter. It's a delicate process.

If you really care, pick up Garden of the Strange by Caleb Strange. He can spin a yarn in such a poignant, perfect way that your own presentation will seem terrifyingly inadequate after reading. Also, a lot of Bizarrist performances deal with storytelling in some degree. Thread's got a good bit from Wayne, in the DVD - he says the effect doesn't really need patter, it's so visual it speaks for itself. He used to just pull the thread out and be done with it, but lately he's used it as a vehicle to portray his character. He gave a presentation dealing with never being able to back down from a dare, and attempting to floss himself with thread from mouth to nose, yet it going weirdly wrong. He tells it as if it were an honest childhood memory, playing on the amusement of the audience, and it also has context - that's just the sort of thing a bold, scheming little rascal of a magician might try. It just fits.

 

[Morgan B]

Toby,

I am pretty good at understanding feedback and knowing common "growing pains" with young magicians. From what I could gather, either these magicians don't know what they are talking about - regardless of their experience (some pro's don't like longer effects - like Jay Sankey) OR your story was so long that by the time the magic came around you lost your momentum.

I think the guys above have given you great advice. So, I won't repeat some of the key things mentioned - but say that Prae gave you some good advice on timing - Toyrobot gave you some good advice on meshing your magic and message (presentation) together.

Here is what I will add - I think the book that will really help tie things together for you is "Scripting Magic" by Peter McCabe (and other greats) - as it will help you think about the amount of words you say that are empty - compared to what helps the magic.

Often when a magician is trying to present something, it is front end heavy - then during the trick they hardly go back to the foundation they built.

I would love to know how you are presenting "Punch Too" - as it is a good effect off that DVD, and I have fooled many a magician and lay audience with it. However, I wonder what kind of "story" you are using. The thing is - presentation should have the feel of authentic and organic. It shouldn't look like a presentation, but a conversation. So, the feedback from the group could have been "You really talked AT us for a long time, rather than WITH us".

I think people like story telling effects - so your group is sort of wrong - as Bill Malone's "Sam the Bellhop" is JUST that - and you would be surprised at how many people say, "I saw a guy do this thing where he tells a story with the cards", as their most memorable moment with magic. However, Bill is very engaging with his audience. It is not just "I" talk, "you" listen.

Here is a challenge for you - write down what you say in the third person and actions in between. See where the gaps are - if you are typing too much, TRIM THE FAT.

EXAMPLE:

Toby pulls out a deck of cards and has a card selected.

TOBY

I am going to riffle the edge, please say stop and remember your card.

ALEX

Stop

Toby

Great. Remember it. Now, I need four of a kind, and sense I have already used the aces in an earlier trick...how about we use the...ummm, 7's.

Toby pulls out the 4 sevens and places them on the table.

Toby

Now, let's see if we can narrow down the options of what your card is, to three choices. Could you please touch three random cards?
____________________________________________________________


Anyhow, this is how you write it out Toby - when you write actions - write them how you want the audience to see them, not what really happens - example - Toby does "Strip out move" or whatever. Then, write what you say - and a typical audience response. This will allow you to see and read what your audience experiences....and is the bones of the book "Scripting Magic".

WOULD YOU MIND SHARING HOW YOU PRESENT IT, when you are done writing it up. We can help you trim the fat - and perhaps see more clearly why someone would say - GET TO THE POINT!! As, I don't agree that people like to get right into the magic.

I think people like you to relate and build a plot, not always, but for you to do one trick and them jump on you?

I find it odd that they saw that part of Maximum Entertainment - because my goal is not Maximum Entertainment - it is Maximum Astonishment...which includes entertainment.

I sort of hate that mentality...JUST GET TO THE TRICK! That is such a North American approach too - which is odd, from your destination. Ask them about guys like Ascanio, Tamariz...who do magic slow, with a bigger build. They need to read the Magic of Ascanio.

Anyhow - it is hard for me to make a call on this one, until I get more info - much has been thrown at you.

Let's continue this thread - the ball is in your court. You got the A team above me trying to help though...and I am sure more help is on the way.

 

[Toby]

Wow, i don't know what to say, you were really great help guys.
Thank you Morgician very much.

The thing is, I used same patter and presentations when I showed same effect to my friends at my birthday party. And they loved it (the effect, I don't know about the patter), and they are still talking about it. Then, after that, I went to my magic club, repeat the same thing all over again, and they said I need to make it shorter. I used the same exact patter as Paul Wilson did, if that helps you in any way.

Maybe I should said something about myself first, that might help.
I'm 22 years old, i will be 23 in 3 months. I am a basketball coach, so I kinda got used to being in center of attention, and don't have a problem talking in front of a large group of people. I was an theater actor for a short time, but did a few plays, so yeah, I don't have a problem talking in front of a large group of people, friends or strangers. I'm fairly new in magic, one and a half years, and that is why I used Paul Wilson's patter instead of my own.

If you have anymore questions, please ask.
And I will do what you told me. Tomorrow I will write down my patter for some of the tricks that I use, and we can work it out. I guess that will help others too.

Keep this thread alive.
Thanx again guys

 

[Steerpike]

Anywho, i started presenting the trick, and telling the story and what not, and all of those older magicians "jumped" at me to get straight to the point, and that people don't like story telling tricks, but more of straight to the point presentations. One of you guys even have that in their signature, quote from Maximum Entertainment, that people likes straight to the point tricks, and that all other than that is just a magical masturbation.

I'm sorry, but that is extremely funny to me.

Granted, it's difficult to make storytelling commercial. And most people suck at telling stories. They barely have enough charisma to just say hi, never mind give us a good narrative.

That said, most magicians are actually terrible judges of what an audience finds entertaining. Our art is so egomaniacal that most of us just can't relate to other human beings when it comes to entertainment anymore.

I'll have to know more about the effect and script that you used, but I think it's mostly a case of a lot of windbags blowing smoke in your face.

 

[Sinful07]

Some very intresting posts were made in this topic, quite enlightening.

To add: This is probably why Flourishing looks cool to magicians. To laymen, its just another dexterous and fancy way of shuffling.

 

[zatch]

In my opinion....

Walk around= straight to the point

stage/paid gig= storyline

 

[Morgan B]

Don't agree there Zeanator - sorry, walk around has room for plot and connected messages - straight to the point is a bit to "HA I FOOLED YOU".

Now that Toby clarified and I understand your background - I would agree with Steerpike on this one.

Especailly considering they were bagging on Paul's presentation really - and not yours. Tell your group to read "Transformations" or "Scripting Magic' - that Maximum Entertainment, wasn't even written by an entertaining magician! There are some key points in Max. Ent. but the concept of "get on with the magic" can be taken to extremes.

 

[Steerpike]

In my opinion....

Walk around= straight to the point

stage/paid gig= storyline

You're kidding, right?

 

[Toby]

Ok guys, here it goes...
I will describe the routine that I'm doing right now, which is kind of more important to me, than the trick we spoke of...

And this is the situation when I sit at the table with spectators, in a coffee place, or library, or anywhere where i have a table. That is how I did it so far, because I never did "Street" magic on the streets. But I can use spectators hands instead of a table for a support, if I ever had to do it while standing up.
And this goes on after I introduce myself and sit at their table:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me: "Hey guys, wanna hear what happened to me on my way over here?" (I think it makes it more interesting than if it happened a year ago or something like that)

Spec: "Sure"

Me: "Right down that corner, while I was walking by, I saw a guy with a wooden box in front of him, and some cards. He catch my glaze and asked me to come closer. He than asked me if I had a dollar. First I thought that he was a bagger, so I took out a dollar." And I openly take a dollar (coin) and put it on the table. "He said, would you like to play a little game, you can earn another dollar or loose the one you have. With my spare time, and with that dollar that I was about to give him anyways, I accepted the challenge. He than took out the cards" I take out the cards "and pull out the four Aces" I pull out the four Aces. And then I asked a spectator "Can you help me demonstrate this please?"

Spec: "Of course"

Me: "Great, thank you. I will be the bagger and you will be me, ok? Great. He than showed me the four Aces" I show the four Aces "and said "Watch carefully. The Ace of Spades goes in your hand, and on top of it goes the Aces of Clubs. Now watch really really closely. I will move them around couple of times, and you will have to tell me which one is on the top.""
This is of course, Dr.Daley's Last Trick. Than I ask a spectator to guess...

Spec: "Spades is clearly on top"

Me: "Yeah, thats what I said, but than he told me "Would you be surprised if the Clubs were on top?" I said yeah. And he replied "would you be even more surprised if they were both actually here in my hands?"" Than i reveal the two black Aces in my hands and let them turn the ones in their hands.

Spec: "Wow, how did you do that? That's amazing"

Me: "And then, just like that, I loose my dollar" And do a some kind of coin vanish.

Spec: "Wow"

Me: "As i was about to leave, he stopped me and asked "Do you want to earn your dollar back?" and I said that i did because I was so eager to figure him out this time, and off course, I wanted my dollar back. "Ok than" he said "I will give you another chance, and this time I will try to make it easy on you, and use just three cards - two jokers and a queen. But you need another dollar."" I take out another dollar, and then proceed with "This and that". Also involve spectator on every question (I really don't think that it is necessary to write all that down). "And than the bagger said "Ok, one more time, in the cleanest way possible, if this is the joker, if this is the queen, what is this third card? Double or nothing...""

Spec: "It is the Joker, it has to be."

Me: I slowly turn the card around to show the Ace of Spades... "That's what I also thought So I lost another dollar" Again, the coin vanish. "And now I was really frustrated, I wanted my money back, and i wanted for him to loose. So I took out my last dollar and said to him, "please give me one more chance to get my money back, but this time, you use only two cards." And he agreed, so i thought that I will get him this time, and even if I couldn't follow what he is doing, there is still 50-50 chance of getting it right." I than instruct a spectator with what he needs to do, and go into 2CM. "First card, the Queen of Hearts. Hold it like this, and hold it tight so I cant pull it out. Great. Now, what card do you think you are holding?"

Spec: "The Queen of Diamonds?" with really strange look on her face...

Me: With the mysterious voice as possible "Turn it over..." And than we all laugh, which is the perfect misdirection for me to show the second Queen. "Ok, second card is the Queen of Diamonds. And than he even offered me to show before hand, how will he switch it." I switch the cards. "And than he said "I will do it a couple of more times, but really fast, and you need to guess, without looking at the card, which Queen is in you hand ok? So watch carefully"" I do the moves a couple of times, and than the important eye contact with the question "So, which one is it? Hearts or Diamonds?" and when they look at me, i do the last move.

Spec: "It is Hearts. Yeah, I'm sure"

Me: "So Hearts is on top, and Diamonds is on the bottom?"

Spec: "Yeah, deffinetly"

Me: "Turn them over..."

Spec: *screams* *curses* *Turrets syndrome*

Me: "Yep, that's what I taught too" I keep saying this, so that they don't feel stupid, or that I think I'm above them, and that is what everybody would have said in that situation...
Than the final coin vanish... "So there goes the third dollar. And just when i was about to leave, he said "Ok, one more chance, double or nothing, and i will use only ONE card this time...""

Spec: *eyes wide open* *how the hell can he do it with one card* etc

Me: "... but, I already lost all money that I had, so I couldn't see it "

Everybody laughs, and that is pretty much it...

Now, it's your turn

Thanx for all your reply again

 

[Shakutau]

Dude thats, thats....dude...*applaud*.

Thats the kind of thing i do too to string my effects together. One personal note on the 2CM. When i perform it, i make the patter of whats going on simple - after when i tell them to check if its the same card i claimed to be in their hand and showing the matching suit in my hand, i show them the switch of the face down cardl; i just do one switch, i dont tell them i will be swtching a couple of times, i ask them "You see the switch?"/"See me switching you're card?". David Blaine's 2CM is simple and hard hitting too. Should check em out.

If i was your spectator, i would have loved to watch you do that routine!

 

[Toby]

Dude thats, thats....dude...*applaud*.

Thats the kind of thing i do too to string my effects together. One personal note on the 2CM. When i perform it, i make the patter of whats going on simple - after when i tell them to check if its the same card i claimed to be in their hand and showing the matching suit in my hand, i show them the switch of the face down cardl; i just do one switch, i dont tell them i will be swtching a couple of times, i ask them "You see the switch?"/"See me switching you're card?". David Blaine's 2CM is simple and hard hitting too. Should check em out.

If i was your spectator, i would have loved to watch you do that routine!

Oh, so you show them the switch very openly, than some kind of misdirection for the final move, and than the reveal?
Sounds excellent. It really does sound (and look) like nothing has even happened.... YET.... great man, thanx.

And also thanx for the compliment.
I have this idea for the longer routine, where I start just like I described, to tell people that it is how I got into magic after that experience, so that I could finally get back at that guy and return my 3 dollars back lol. And than at the end, when i finished my training, and was ready to face him again. Full of confidence and knowledge, he somehow succeed to get another dollar out of me...

Something along those lines. It can be very funny and entertaining routine

Thanx again

 

[Shakutau]

Yeah, for lay people, after the second (fake) stab "switch", i find them all focused on the card the spec is holding, so i can do a top change while i break frame to give them a bit of space. Or, if not, i try eye contact. Or if not, i try movement. Left hand points after stab, both hands gesture, hands return and swtich. David Blaine is pro at this. Should watch his recent vid when he was performing in that office place.

I have this thing i wrote down, i dont know what to call it but its cool. Its another story driven effect.

First i do FOUR by Aaron Fisher. Then Dr Daley's Last Trick. Then 2CM.

Also you could use DD Last Trick to be an entertaining interactive effect. When you have given them the cards, dont show that its a different pair on either side. Instead do this. Tell the spec that you want to spark their imaginetion for a moment. Remind them of how they look at themselves in the mirror every morning when they brush their teeth. Remind them that they see themselves mirroring themseves each time they move. Tell them it scares you - do you know why?

Tell the spec to immitate your movement (while you hold the two face down cards with the same hand), when you shake the cards, they shake the cards, when you stop, they stop, when you turn it over, they turn it over. Do this as slow as you can so they can immitate every movement. When they turn it over, BAM.

It plays well when done to two specs, like if you are performing for a group of 3, or two, after gving a pair to the spec, you will have one pair in your hand, give that pair to someone ese in the group to hold, and proceed with the mirroring shizzle. It is killer. All the time.

 

[Toby]

Yeah, for lay people, after the second (fake) stab "switch", i find them all focused on the card the spec is holding, so i can do a top change while i break frame to give them a bit of space. Or, if not, i try eye contact. Or if not, i try movement. Left hand points after stab, both hands gesture, hands return and swtich. David Blaine is pro at this. Should watch his recent vid when he was performing in that office place.

That is the way that I do it... Maybe I didn't explain it very well... My bad...

I have this thing i wrote down, i dont know what to call it but its cool. Its another story driven effect.

First i do FOUR by Aaron Fisher. Then Dr Daley's Last Trick. Then 2CM.

Also you could use DD Last Trick to be an entertaining interactive effect. When you have given them the cards, dont show that its a different pair on either side. Instead do this. Tell the spec that you want to spark their imaginetion for a moment. Remind them of how they look at themselves in the mirror every morning when they brush their teeth. Remind them that they see themselves mirroring themseves each time they move. Tell them it scares you - do you know why?

Tell the spec to immitate your movement (while you hold the two face down cards with the same hand), when you shake the cards, they shake the cards, when you stop, they stop, when you turn it over, they turn it over. Do this as slow as you can so they can immitate every movement. When they turn it over, BAM.

It plays well when done to two specs, like if you are performing for a group of 3, or two, after gving a pair to the spec, you will have one pair in your hand, give that pair to someone ese in the group to hold, and proceed with the mirroring shizzle. It is killer. All the time.

Hahahaha, lol.
That is brilliant. I just imagined myself as a spectator, and that someone else is doing that to me... Haha, it's just mind blowing. I guess the reactions would go in this order: *jaw dropped for 5 seconds* *Turrets syndrom* *ROFL*

It doesn't quite fit into my presentation above, but I will deffinetly try this out.
Thanx man

 

[Shakutau]

Well i tend to present magic as if it was nomal, so when i get the comment "HOW YOU DO!?", i can cleanly explain "YOU DO NOT I!".

 

[praetoritevong]

Haha, tourettes. That sounds perfectly fine to me man..

 

[SeraphSigma]

I think the need for a story depends on the effect in question. However, presentation is necessary for all. If the magician has the benefit of time and interaction to get to know the audience better, then lengthy effects would be good. But if it is on the street, always start with something visual and fast to seize their attention.