Risk and Reward

[Randy]

Randy: If you figure something out, you have to use your creativity and logic to fill in the blanks of what you didn't figure out. So it's an exercise instead of just straight stealing from the creator. They are inspiring you.

Let me ask you this. Would you rather learn how to play piano by sitting there and fiddling with the keys. Or would rather learn how to properly read music and play it.

Sure you can teach yourself to play piano. But it would be a lot more beneficial to actually have somebody who knows what they are doing, teach it to you.

 

[visualartist]

The fact that some people can figure out should be irrelevant because dealers and magic creators should be honest and upfront about what we're getting. (wishful thinking?)

Honest about what exactly?That it is a simple method?

 

[aznofspades]

Randy: I think you should learn the BASICS of sleight of hand from a good teacher. But from then on, it's still ok to go back to others, but I think after that we should try creating our own stuff.

Best:
Buying the product from the creator to compensate them for inspiring you and learning to do the effect the way they teach it and then maybe create your own variation to fit your style.

The two other options:

Figure the trick out. Get the basic mechanics down and anything you couldn't figure out from the demo, you adapt so it works for you. When you eventually have the chance, you can purchase it and get the creator's insight.

(This is what I did with Jay Sankey's Back in Time. I just bought Sankey Unleashed last week, great stuff!)

Pirating the DVD. Completely stealing the trick from the creator. Sure you might learn the trick completely as they teach it, but you still stole it. You're just being lazy: too lazy to work or think about the trick for a few seconds and try to figure out if it will work for you. Or search online for some reviews. I guess you could still purchase it, but why would you, you already know the creator's insight?
______

If you have a different perspective on this then I'd like to hear it.

And one of the talented musicians I know is self-taught.

Visualartist: Honest about what the trick looks like. Showing us a full performance of the trick should be enough, but an effect description that is honest about the limitations of the effect.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm saying that I think they should show the whole trick. Like Jay Sankey does in his trailers. The fact that some people can figure out should be irrelevant because dealers and magic creators should be honest and upfront about what we're getting. (wishful thinking?)

That assumes however that not wanting to show very sensitive moments in an effect is dishonest, which is a rather cynical and pessimistic assumption.

Yes, unscrupulous individuals can use flashy editing to hide poor quality, but why do we have to assume that everyone is like that?

What do you mean with the second part?

It sounds to me like you're trying to justify their actions.

 

[Randy]

Randy: I think you should learn the BASICS of sleight of hand from a good teacher. But from then on, it's still ok to go back to others, but I think after that we should try creating our own stuff.

And you can also learn other sleights to a well. The stuff from the guys that have been doing it, will save you the time of having to try and figure out if this or that angle is bad. Because they have been using it for however many years. You can also use sleights that you learned from them to create your own stuff.

 

[nexusmagic]

Randy: I think you should learn the BASICS of sleight of hand from a good teacher. But from then on, it's still ok to go back to others, but I think after that we should try creating our own stuff.

How would someone who is geographically isolated find a good teacher to learn the basics. I know I had no teacher to teach me basic slieght of hand. Trying learnig the classic pass from a book.

 

[aznofspades]

Steerpike: I'm saying that all dealers should try being as upfront about their product as Jay Sankey is. I don't think he cares if you figure it out or not because his tricks aren't meant to be magicians foolers. Just cuz other dealers aren't as honest doesn't mean they're doing it intentionally just to deceive us.

I was unsure what "trailer weasels" meant: the dealers that make the trailers or the people that figure them out.

Personally, I don't try to figure out tricks that I know I'm not gonna use. But if I see one that I will use, I'll try to work out my own method and perform it my own way and buy the real product the next time I go to the magic shop.

Maybe the difference between me and the other "trailer weasels" is that I'm actually willing to put down some cash for the product?

Randy: Right. I agree. But I'm saying it's better for you and magic to try to figure it out yourself than to pirate it. And not illegal.

nexusmagic: A good teacher can be a DVD, too. I think you misunderstood what I said.

 

[nexusmagic]

nexusmagic: A good teacher can be a DVD, too. I think you misunderstood what I said.

Yes I missunderstood your wording I think it should have been worded,
I think you should learn the BASICS of sleight of hand from a good teaching media.

A dvd cannot talk to you if you are having problems with a certain slieght. A teacher can but a dvd can't. That is what I misunderstood in your post.

 

[Randy]

Randy: Right. I agree. But I'm saying it's better for you and magic to try to figure it out yourself than to pirate it. And not illegal.

How is figuring something out. Bette than learning it properly and from the people who have had experience with it? Wouldn't you rather save the heart ache and have them tell you which angle works and which doesn't and how to properly perform it?

 

[Steerpike]

I don't think he cares if you figure it out or not because his tricks aren't meant to be magicians foolers.

You keep saying that, and to be honest it seems like a non-sequitur. Maybe it's because the products aren't meant to be magician foolers that they cut out the sensitive parts.

Just cuz other dealers aren't as honest doesn't mean they're doing it intentionally just to deceive us.

I do not buy the idea that it's somehow dishonest.

Maybe the difference between me and the other "trailer weasels" is that I'm actually willing to put down some cash for the product?

I still don't get why you're trying to justify they're actions, unless you're trying to justify your own for whatever reason.

Regardless, you're in the extreme minority.

 

[aznofspades]

Randy: I think people learn better if they work it out for themselves. They go through the trial and error themselves and in the process, work harder then those who just bought the DVD.

If you are really that determined to get all the information that the creator gives, just buy the DVD in the first place.

Steerpike: I'm saying that maybe they shouldn't care if we figure it out or not. It's not supposed to fool us, it's supposed to fool the laymen. Anyone who buys a Jay Sankey product after watching his trailer knows pretty much exactly what they're getting and what it looks like in performance.

It's not dishonest, BUT it's not as honest as they COULD be.

I'm just explaining their actions, it makes sense to me and I don't think everyone understand it.

Steerpike you've called me "cynical", "pessimistic", and "in the extreme minority". That's really saying something coming from you

 

[Randy]

Randy: I think people learn better if they work it out for themselves. They go through the trial and error themselves and in the process, work harder then those who just bought the DVD.

There is an old saying where I come from. Work Smarter, Not harder.

Why should you work harder than the guy before you and get less of a reward? The reason DVD's and or books are good is because you learn from other peoples experience using said moves and what not. Which makes it better and easier on you. It cuts out the heart ache.

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike: I'm saying that maybe they shouldn't care if we figure it out or not.

I would argue they should accept it's going to happen, but from a business perspective, I cannot fault them for not wanting to show certain part of a trick in the trailer.

It's not supposed to fool us, it's supposed to fool the laymen.

I still think that's completely irrelevant to the point, and just sounds like a conceit.

Anyone who buys a Jay Sankey product after watching his trailer knows pretty much exactly what they're getting and what it looks like in performance.

Have you noticed that most of his previews actually don't follow the format of that series of effects in which the trailer featured the young lady in the pink top? Hundred Dollar Miracles, Invisible, Spontaneous Combustion, Amazing Magic and Mentalism Anyone Can Do, Hemispheres, 32 Blows to the Head, Twister, Revolutionary Card Magic, Omnilope...

Jay actually does the same thing that a lot of dealers do. Especially when selling a DVD with multiple effects, how you going to fit the contents of the whole thing into one trailer?

It's not dishonest, BUT it's not as honest as they COULD be.

So to be 100% honest, they have to show everything, even the stuff that works fine in performance, but looks bad on camera?

Well that begs a few questions. How does a lecture or a book provide 100% honestly? Where's the line drawn there?

I'm just explaining their actions, it makes sense to me and I don't think everyone understand it.

It sounds to me more like you're trying to explain your actions. The majority of people who reverse engineer from trailers have no intention of ever buying the effect. For some, it's not a malicious intent, others it is. There are a lot of circumstances that motivate people to do it. Regardless, it is folly to assume that everyone else is going to adhere to your ethical standards.

 

[aznofspades]

Randy: Would you rather have a bunch of perfect Dai Vernon clones that perform everything exactly as he did or some original people performing less refined tricks, but taking risks and trying new things? It's really your choice, but I like to try new things and experiment.

I'm saying if you want to learn the trick exactly the way the creator does, buy the DVD. Don't pirate it.

Or if you just were inspired by the idea once you saw the trailer, come up with your own idea email the creator and then work out the kinks yourself. Sure it's more work, but in the end you get a trick that is truly your own that you know because you built it up from scratch.

Steerpike: I'm not trying to sound conceited. Darwin Ortiz explains in Strong Magic and Designing Miracles that magicians and laymen look at trick differently. He explains that just cuz it doesn't fool a magician doesn't mean it won't fool a layperson (and vice versa)

Assuming that you're performing for laymen, you want your trick to work for that audience.

Right about Jay. In his single trick dvd preview with the girls, he shows the whole trick. In his compilations, he shows quick previews of the faster flashier tricks. He also teaches some of his trick for free in his email and on his website.

I'm saying that more dealers should have the amount of faith in their products as Jay does when they demo their products.

Yes. To be 100% honest they have to show everything as the spectator's pov. (I think all of the T11 trailers that I've seen are fine they do exactly that) Obviously we're all human so we can't expect 100% honesty from people, but it is something that I think dealer's should strive for.

And what you said about Sinful: Didn't Wayne Houchin release full performance clips off Indecent, Distortion, Control, and Thread before their release? So he wasn't discouraged by the people figuring it out either.

Ok.

This is what I do:

Watch a performance.
If the method immediately jumps out at me I'll go ahead and brainstorm off of it.

If not, then I'll write down the name of the trick, search some online reviews and remember to ask the guy behind the magic counter to demo it for me and we just talk about it.

(I like watching him demo it for a mixed crowd of magician and lay people.)

If I think it's something that I'll actually use, I'll buy it, but after I've brainstormed as much as possible about my own ideas. Somehow after seeing the DVD, it changes how you think about the effect so I want to preserve my initial feeling of the effect.

That's my thought process, I agree that most people probably wouldn't do that. I still think that figuring it out from the demo is better than just pirating it.

It's the same as a laymen figuring out a trick from watching the performance. That's fair isn't it?

 

[Randomwrath]

Right. I agree. But I'm saying it's better for you and magic to try to figure it out yourself than to pirate it. And not illegal.

Ah, but the choices here are both or one. If someone can figure it out from the trailer, that doesn't make it un-piratable. So it's either piratable AND possible to figure out, or it's just piratable. And from a business perspective, you wouldn't think 'well there are two ways of getting the method for this for free, but one of them encourages you to think, so that's ok!' So ultimately, it isn't a one-or-the-other situation, people won't stop pirating just because they CAN figure it out.

 

[aznofspades]

Yeah. Both choices are still possible. Unless it's an unreleased trick or something.

But I'm saying that of the two, figuring out the trick instead of pirating it is better for magic and you.

And a from a business perspective, not editing the demo down probably is quicker and cheaper. If people are gonna pirate it anyway why bother?

It will stop the people that just want secrets from pirating it.

What this thread was about before we went off on this tangent:

An 100% honest demo based on spectator's pov.

Risk:
That some people would figure it out.

Reward:
People will respect your product because you have the faith to be honest about it flaws and buy it after making informed decisions, leading to more favorable reviews.

 

[Steerpike]

Randy: Would you rather have a bunch of perfect Dai Vernon clones that perform everything exactly as he did or some original people performing less refined tricks, but taking risks and trying new things?

So the only way to be original is to do things your way?

Steerpike: I'm not trying to sound conceited. Darwin Ortiz explains in Strong Magic and Designing Miracles that magicians and laymen look at trick differently. He explains that just cuz it doesn't fool a magician doesn't mean it won't fool a layperson (and vice versa)

Assuming that you're performing for laymen, you want your trick to work for that audience.

Did you miss where I said that's totally irrelevant to my point?

I'm saying that more dealers should have the amount of faith in their products as Jay does when they demo their products.

Who says it's a matter of having faith in the product?

Yes. To be 100% honest they have to show everything as the spectator's pov.

Which is bull****, because the human eye is nothing like a camera. I get away with murder right under my spectator's noses, but a camera would catch every single move. Camera's record everything within their view, while the human eye can only adequately focus on one thing at a time. That's one of the fundamental concepts of misdirection, for god's sake!

So are you going to sit there and tell me that my magic sucks or that I have no faith in it because most of it does not work on camera? Are you actually going to say that with a straight face?

And what you said about Sinful: Didn't Wayne Houchin release full performance clips off Indecent, Distortion, Control, and Thread before their release? So he wasn't discouraged by the people figuring it out either.

Not the trailers I saw.

I agree that most people probably wouldn't do that.

Then why do you keep talking as if they do?

I still think that figuring it out from the demo is better than just pirating it.

Fundamentally, you're still looking for a way to avoid paying.

It's the same as a laymen figuring out a trick from watching the performance. That's fair isn't it?

No, it's not. Because if you're performing live and a spectator figures out how you did it, that's a failure on your part.

But I'm saying that of the two, figuring out the trick instead of pirating it is better for magic and you.

And I still don't buy that. Because you're still assuming that everyone possesses your ethic about use and paying for what you want.

And a from a business perspective, not editing the demo down probably is quicker and cheaper.

Not necessarily. What, did you think they only shoot one performance and use that? Give me a break. Have you ever worked as a professional videographer or editor?

If people are gonna pirate it anyway why bother?

That logic is actually why some magicians never release anything. Think about that for a second.

It will stop the people that just want secrets from pirating it.

They'll just reverse engineer it and still never pay a dime. Durr!

EDIT: Here's another reason your argument that reverse engineering is better for you doesn't hold up. Check out the YouTube videos of the guys who say they reverse engineered the effect. They all suck! Their performances are terrible.

 

[Randy]

Randy: Would you rather have a bunch of perfect Dai Vernon clones that perform everything exactly as he did or some original people performing less refined tricks, but taking risks and trying new things? It's really your choice, but I like to try new things and experiment.

I see nothing wrong with performing refined tricks and performing them like Dai Vernon.

 

[Randomwrath]

Yeah. Both choices are still possible. Unless it's an unreleased trick or something.

But I'm saying that of the two, figuring out the trick instead of pirating it is better for magic and you.

Yes, but people aren't going to reverse engineer because it's better for them and magic, because it involves more effort, and people in general are lazy. What you're saying is that it's better to give people two ways to find out how the trick is done, in the hope that some people will take the slightly better option, rather than just limit the amount of options to one. From the creator's point of view, it would be better to limit the options, because, ultimately, less people will get the trick for free. Remember, the people that make these trailers aren't going to be making continuous shot performances in the hopes that some people will be more original when performing the trick, they're going to be making it hard to figure out, so that they sell the maximum amount of copies.

 

[aznofspades]

Steerpike: Isn't that one being original is? Doing stuff your own way?

I didn't miss it, I just don't think its irrelevant. You wanna explain?

If you have faith in your product, it means you realize that you have a good idea and are willing to share it. You've worked out the kinks and you're willing to show it without hiding anything.

From the spectator's pov. Like what they remember. But if you're showing it from the spec's perspective, you should explain that in the description that there is more to the effect but that the demo shows how the spec will remember it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

http://media.theory11.com/1019-Control---Performance

I'm optimistically saying that if you come up with your own idea, you will put in the effort to perfect it.

You guys are talking optimistically like people that pirate DVDs will all spend the time to perfect every move on the DVD.

I agree. If a spectator figures out the trick no matter why it's your fault.

I have never worked with a professional videographer or editor. But I'm assuming that NOT editing something is easier, cheaper and quicker than doing it.

Yea. I agree. Piracy is bad for magic. But figuring out other magician's tricks from watching them perform has been around

Yea that's what I meant. If you already know the secret from reverse engineering, you won't pirate it.

The people in those videos didn't put in the effort. But they tell you that they reverse engineered cuz they thinks that makes it clever.
But there are those that pirate DVDs, and they don't say that in the video description because it's illegal. So it's hard to tell if people that pirate dvds are actually better performers.

Randy: I'm saying would you rather have perfect clones or imperfect original performers?

Randomwrath: I'm saying that magic dealers should stop worrying more about people figuring out tricks in the preview and focus more on stopping piracy.