Risk and Reward

[Steerpike]

Steerpike: Isn't that one being original is? Doing stuff your own way?

No, I meant specifically your way. What you're doing right now, everyone must use your process in order to be original. Do you think we're that stupid that if we don't reverse engineer a trick first that we'll just be carbon copies?

I didn't miss it, I just don't think its irrelevant. You wanna explain?

Because it's not about who the trick is supposed to fool. It's about whether or not you should consciously attempt to reverse engineer every single trick you find. To keep telling me, "It's not supposed to fool magicians," is to miss the point.

If you have faith in your product, it means you realize that you have a good idea and are willing to share it. You've worked out the kinks and you're willing to show it without hiding anything.

That works great on paper. Now let's talk about how things work in the real world.

From the spectator's pov. Like what they remember.

The camera can't do that. It's a machine that captures everything in the panoply of its vision.

But if you're showing it from the spec's perspective, you should explain that in the description that there is more to the effect but that the demo shows how the spec will remember it. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

In other words, all trailers should be shot like The Blair Witch Project and Cloverfield.

There's a reason they do not shoot every single movie that way.

I'm optimistically saying that if you come up with your own idea, you will put in the effort to perfect it.

That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

You guys are talking optimistically like people that pirate DVDs will all spend the time to perfect every move on the DVD.

That also has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

I agree. If a spectator figures out the trick no matter why it's your fault.

And yet, when magicians do it and then don't feel the need to pay you a dime for your product, it's okay. I guess creators can just pay their bills purely on optimism and honesty and integrity.

I have never worked with a professional videographer or editor. But I'm assuming that NOT editing something is easier, cheaper and quicker than doing it.

Put it this way: do you have any idea how much footage they don't use? Do you know how much ends up on the cutting room floor regardless of whether you do a continuous cut or montage editing?

Watch the opening sequence of Touch of Evil or The Player. You think those scenes were nailed in one take?

Yea. I agree. Piracy is bad for magic. But figuring out other magician's tricks from watching them perform has been around

So because it's older, it's okay?

Yea that's what I meant. If you already know the secret from reverse engineering, you won't pirate it.

For all practical purposes you have. They can't bring you to court over it, but if prosecution is the only reason you have not to pirate, well...

The people in those videos didn't put in the effort. But they tell you that they reverse engineered cuz they thinks that makes it clever.

But the fact remains that they did reverse engineer. Which means that most people who do it are neither ethical nor talented. But they're somehow better than the same talentless apes using torrents?

But there are those that pirate DVDs, and they don't say that in the video description because it's illegal. So it's hard to tell if people that pirate dvds are actually better performers.

It's not that hard to tell. The more they brag or boast, the greater the chance they pirated it.

Randy: I'm saying would you rather have perfect clones or imperfect original performers?

Are those the only two choices I get? That blows!

Randomwrath: I'm saying that magic dealers should stop worrying more about people figuring out tricks in the preview and focus more on stopping piracy.

For all practical purposes it means the same thing to the business owner: diminished revenue. But for some reason, you're rather insistent that reverse engineering is excusable in all circumstances because you happen to have a scruple or two.

 

[nexusmagic]

You are not going to stop piracy, the internet is a free thing and isn't governed by anyone person. In order to stop most websites and take them to court would cost more then the original dvd at of the creators pocket.

That is the fundamental problem, most pirating sites or warez sites are located in foreign countries. I would imagine it would be a nightmare financialy too try and get people in india. Plus if you did take them to court paying for the trips over to said country, there is always the chance that you loose the case or you win it and sue them for everything they got which is probably close to nothing.

Point of my entire post is that to truly stop piracy would cost something we all need now a days... Money. Besides if people start provoking the pirate subculture they will only want to do it more because that is just what they do.

 

[fkace63]

piracy

because of piracy, certain gems will never be released. Just look at true astonishments. Its being pirated the hell out of, and it was sold for $300, presumably to prevent noobs frob buying it and pirating it.

 

[aznofspades]

No. But it's a simple step towards being original. There are definitely other ways to be original.
Reverse engineering is just a natural part of brainstorming about the trick in terms of method. When I first see a trick if I'm interested, I also brainstorm in terms of presentation.

I said if the "method immediately jumps out at me". I'll start thinking about it. It's not a conscious effort. Sometimes watching a performance just sparks an idea in my head.

No I'm not saying like that for the demos.
I think there was an effect Blizzard, that involved a very bold switch that would fail on the camera but would always fly by the spectator's. So the camera would just zoom to completely cut out the switch when it happens because the spec's wouldn't see it anyway.

But if you're a magician and you see them cut like this, isn't it not that hard to assume that something happened when they zoomed in.

Demos should work as hard as they can to portray the effect as it would be remembered by a spectator in a real live performance.

Right the thing about optimism was more directed toward Randy and how he thinks if you pirate the dvd you will put in a lot of effort because the creator teaches it to you, but thinks if you come up with the method by yourself you will put in little to no effort.

I'm saying if you figure out a trick and you're not gonna perform it, you don't have to pay for it.
If you figure out a trick and you are gonna perform it, you should pay for it or at least contact the creator.

I'm looking at knowing the method prior to purchase as a way to make an informed decision.

Ok for the videographer thing. You would still have to do the same amount of work to get the original footage and editing it so it looks professional. But you wouldn't have to do the additional work of editing it down so that the trick is not revealed as much.

Figuring out the trick is something Ed Marlo did. To magicians, it's like solving a puzzle. It still leaves some aspects of the trick unknown to you. But if you pirate something you have no reason to buy the actual product, unless you all of a sudden have a change of heart and realize that it's wrong. You got everything for free why pay for it?

I'm saying that it's easier to get a statistic of bad reverse engineers than bad pirates because piracy is illegal and smart people don't brag about doing illegal things.

It's not black and white, you can mix it up. But they are the two opposite sides of the coins. Basically which side are you MORE leaning toward?

It is excusable if you figure it out, and decide that you're not gonna use it and don't use it. You are then giving the creator nothing for something you deem worthless to you.
or
It is excusable if you figure it out, and decide that it's something that you're gonna use and you buy the actual product.

Anyone from the T11 staff wanna say how they feel about this?

EDIT: DID YOU WATCH THE WAYNE HOUCHIN VIDEO? BECAUSE IT WAS FROM A GIG OF HIS SO I DON'T THINK DANA COULD KEEP RESHOOTING IT IF IT DIDN'T WORK OUT THE SAME TIME. A FULL PERFORMANCE THAT DIDN'T REVEAL THE METHOD IN ANYWAY. GOOD JOB WAYNE!!

P.S. LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING YOU TOMORROW.

 

[nexusmagic]

because of piracy, certain gems will never be released. Just look at true astonishments. Its being pirated the hell out of, and it was sold for $300, presumably to prevent noobs frob buying it and pirating it.

And you know what, Some jems shouldn't be released. Let others find their own GD gems. It espically irks me when a "Jem" is released with the sole intent of making a quick buck.

 

[aznofspades]

I'm not trying to stop piracy. I'm saying that if you want to make an informed decision on a purchase so you don't get ripped off by a method that is impractical for you, reverse-engineer the method. It will help you creatively and in deciding on your purchase. Who knows? You might come up with a new method that would work for you. If you decide that it is something that you are gonna use, please show the creator your thanks and purchase their products or at least contact them and ask them what they want you to do.

DON'T PIRATE THE DVD!! As fkace63 says, it is bad for magic.

I'm trying to explain to people that pirating magic in order to get the same information as above (making an informed purchase), is unnecessary and bad for magic.

________________
I don't feel like wasting my time trying to convince those whose ethics let them steal the magic that they perform by means of pirating or reverse engineering and not compensating the creator in anyway.

 

[nexusmagic]

I'm not trying to stop piracy. I'm saying that if you want to make an informed decision on a purchase so you don't get ripped off by a method that is impractical for you, reverse-engineer the method. It will help you creatively and in deciding on your purchase. Who knows? You might come up with a new method that would work for you. If you decide that it is something that you are gonna use, please show the creator your thanks and purchase their products or at least contact them and ask them what they want you to do.

DON'T PIRATE THE DVD!! As fkace63 says, it is bad for magic.

I'm trying to explain to people that pirating magic in order to get the same information as above (making an informed purchase), is unnecessary and bad for magic.

________________
I don't feel like wasting my time trying to convince those whose ethics let them steal the magic that they perform by means of pirating or reverse engineering and not compensating the creator in anyway.

You know the one thing about reverse engineering things is that sometimes you learn a certain move wrong and it becomes habitual. when you finally get the dvd you find out the right way to perform and effect. I sure as heck would like to see my effect performed right then a half assed performance on youtube do to reversed engineering.

Reverse engineering is not as practical as click, click set it and forget it for a day. Furthermore if I am paranoid of buying a dvd on magic you should know there is something terribly wrong with the Magic market.

I help the creator by putting out a good word for them with either a review and or word of mouth. I know for a fact that I basically sold three, three disk dvds from word of mouth and a review and a little preview of what to expect on this 3 disc dvd.

Also please do not go, I still am not 100percent convinced that pirating magic is a bad thing for magic.

 

[Randomwrath]

Randomwrath: I'm saying that magic dealers should stop worrying more about people figuring out tricks in the preview and focus more on stopping piracy.

I see what you're trying to say, but I think it's wrong. I think that they should try to crack down on piracy, keeping the same amount of focus on stopping people reverse engineering the tricks. You said it was a black or white thing, piracy or reverse-engineering. I think this is where you're wrong. A creator doesn't like either, so a creator will try to prevent both.

 

[Steerpike]

Reverse engineering is just a natural part of brainstorming about the trick in terms of method. When I first see a trick if I'm interested, I also brainstorm in terms of presentation.

No one can be faulted for having a brain. What I'm asking is if you're trying to justify a conscious attempt to reverse engineer a method.

No I'm not saying like that for the demos.
I think there was an effect Blizzard, that involved a very bold switch that would fail on the camera but would always fly by the spectator's. So the camera would just zoom to completely cut out the switch when it happens because the spec's wouldn't see it anyway.

But that in itself looks suspicious. You keep forgetting that cameras are not like human eyes, nor do they record in the fashion that human memory does. If you tried to shoot a trailer in the same manner as you think the spectator would perceive the trick, it would still be suspicious as all get out. The sleights may not flash, but a half-way competent magician would recognize a critical moment.

As much as we would like to, we cannot suspend our knowledge, nor can we completely suspend our unconscious observations.

Bottom line: cameras are nothing like the human eye.

But if you're a magician and you see them cut like this, isn't it not that hard to assume that something happened when they zoomed in.

Nor is it that difficult to figure out what sleight they might be using.

In effect, you'd slow the pirates down by about 30 seconds worth of thinking.

Right the thing about optimism was more directed toward Randy and how he thinks if you pirate the dvd you will put in a lot of effort because the creator teaches it to you, but thinks if you come up with the method by yourself you will put in little to no effort.

And you assume the opposite.

If you figure out a trick and you are gonna perform it, you should pay for it or at least contact the creator.

How many do you think actually do that?

Ok for the videographer thing. You would still have to do the same amount of work to get the original footage and editing it so it looks professional. But you wouldn't have to do the additional work of editing it down so that the trick is not revealed as much.

Bottom line: it ain't easy no matter which way you slice it. And if you're a business trying to move a certain number of units, perhaps that extra hour in the editing room and cutting the trailer up is worth it to you.

Ever consider that?

Figuring out the trick is something Ed Marlo did.

Oh Christ, we've gotten into name dropping. The thread is screwed.

You got everything for free why pay for it?

Can you honestly not think of any?

It's not black and white, you can mix it up. But they are the two opposite sides of the coins. Basically which side are you MORE leaning toward?

That's a loaded question.

EDIT: DID YOU WATCH THE WAYNE HOUCHIN VIDEO? BECAUSE IT WAS FROM A GIG OF HIS SO I DON'T THINK DANA COULD KEEP RESHOOTING IT IF IT DIDN'T WORK OUT THE SAME TIME. A FULL PERFORMANCE THAT DIDN'T REVEAL THE METHOD IN ANYWAY. GOOD JOB WAYNE!!

Performances like that are not easy. I'm speaking from experience. Wayne can do that because he has experience, but I'd bet money that not every performance he's taped has turned out good enough to show. There's so much that can go wrong, and it takes not only an incredibly careful selection of effects, but great teamwork between the camera operator and the magician to minimize flashing.

I keep repeating this: cameras are nothing like human eyes. You cannot misdirect a camera.

I'm trying to explain to people that pirating magic in order to get the same information as above (making an informed purchase), is unnecessary and bad for magic.

But have you ever stopped and considered why people pirate? And that suggesting your technique is not an actual solution?

 

[Randy]

Right the thing about optimism was more directed toward Randy and how he thinks if you pirate the dvd you will put in a lot of effort because the creator teaches it to you, but thinks if you come up with the method by yourself you will put in little to no effort.

I never once said you SHOULD pirate a DVD. I said that the different between pirating a DVD and trying to reverse engineer the method or the effect is that when you pirate the DVD, at least you are doing the effect justice and properly learning the moves and often times the theory behind the effect. Thus making you look less like an idiot.

When you reverse engineer something that you maybe saw in a trailer. You have no idea if it will work out or not. So why not save yourself the trouble and learn the effect/method properly?

 

[SHANE BLACK]

The secret is never impressive. In fact, learning it often feels like an insult to our intelligence.

I was wondering if I was the only one that felt this way.

 

[aznofspades]

I'm not trying to justify those of us that watch previews frame by frame meticulously with a notebook in hand to watch for a flash of a method.

So then how would you demo a trick like Blizzard? A cut would be obvious, a zoom a little bit more subtle. I've heard that Blizzard is an effect that needs no demo because it really is what you pay for, but I disagree.

If you were watching Blizzard for the first time, you wouldn't know what was happening because of the susprise ending so it would still be effective on the first viewing.

What should we worry about more? Helping those that take magic seriously or hurting those that do unethical things?

I firmly believe in the policy of not buying tricks that you haven't seen performed beforehand.

I don't assume the opposite. I think that either way there are different ranges of skills for those that pirate and reverse engineer. And I'm showing you the idealized version but acknowledging that it's unlikely.

Not as many as should. But how many magicians actually perform for real people nowadays anyways?

I'm saying sure you can edit it to make it professional. But try to make sure that the final cut is as honest to the spectator's recollection as possible.

"Christ" Isn't that dropping a name, too?

I'm trying to show that respected members of the magic community have reverse engineered tricks. How many respected members of the magic community are there that pirate?

If you're a pirate who ethically doesn't care about ripping off creators, what do you have to gain from purchasing the actual product.

I'll add more later.

 

[nexusmagic]

How many respected members of the magic community are there that pirate?

Define Respected. The only people I see on this forum being respect all the time are the artists themselves.

If you're a pirate who ethically doesn't care about ripping off creators, what do you have to gain from purchasing the actual product.

Duhh, a hard legal copy, I am speaking of course if the dvd really is that good.

Now it may seem that I have downloaded many dvds. Tis not true only about 5 most of them single effect dvds that I was skeptical about.

 

[Steerpike]

So then how would you demo a trick like Blizzard? A cut would be obvious, a zoom a little bit more subtle. I've heard that Blizzard is an effect that needs no demo because it really is what you pay for, but I disagree.

If you were watching Blizzard for the first time, you wouldn't know what was happening because of the susprise ending so it would still be effective on the first viewing.

I'm going to cut straight to the point this time around.

A lot of magic just does not work on camera. Period. That point is important to the issue and I'm getting a little frustrated that you have yet to address it in any way. This is not an issue that can be fixed by amateurish attempts at cinematography. I am speaking not only as a magician, but as a filmmaker. Because of the differences between the human eye and a camera, there is a lot of magic that should not be taped because it doesn't work with the latter. You cannot misdirect a camera and cutting different angles to hide flashing a sleight isn't going to work because it will not get rid of the problem.

To continue talking about how the industry isn't honest enough and acting as if redesigning trailers will somehow fix the problem is to completely miss the point.

And none of this does anything to address the causes that motivate people to pirate magic. You're treating the symptom, but not the illness.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

And none of this does anything to address the causes that motivate people to pirate magic. You're treating the symptom, but not the illness.

I already got enough posts and responses to idiocy in this night. But I will respond to this.

Take (A). He is a guy that likes magic and wants to see a new trick. Mr. (B) is a magician and his intention is to show some good magic. Will Mr. (A) Let Mr. (B) show a good trick? Well, Mr. (B) tends to pirate magic and has a hard time letting (A) know that he doesn't. Mr. A could smell that B.

So (B) shows the trick and Mr. A looks at him and says....



WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?


That is how it works people.


Anyone downloading stuff for free is ripping off anyone that paid for it. You get for free the stuff I have paid for? And you are alright with that? WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?

 

[aznofspades]

Nexus Magic:

If you practice a move wrong, but it still works for you, you have adapted the trick to fit your hands. Isn't that a good thing?

Furthermore if I am paranoid of buying a dvd on magic you should know there is something terribly wrong with the Magic market.

Now it may seem that I have downloaded many dvds. Tis not true only about 5 most of them single effect dvds that I was skeptical about.

You said it yourself, does that mean that there is something terribly wrong with the Magic market.

Respected: People who the majority of magician's recognize as consistently good contributers to the art of magic. And if you're on the Theory 11 forums, they would respect the artists cuz if they didn't they'd go somewhere else to post.

Why would you want a legal copy if you already have the contents? Just burn it to a DVD. It's not like the FBI is gonna storm in on you and search your magic DVDs. You gain nothing, unless you're doing it cuz you respect the creator and magic, as both an art and a business.

Steerpike: Yea I agree. But dealers should have something to show. If they encounter people that believe in seeing a performance of the effect before purchasing, and they don't have a performance or one that is obviously edited to conceal the faults, then those people will just go on Youtube or to a magic shop and look for a performance. It's still the same, but the dealer no longer has control over what the spectator sees. They're leaving it up to chance that their potential customer sees an amazing performance and decides to buy it.

If the industry was honest, then dishonest people could not blame their piracy on the industry's dishonesty and justify it.

We were talking about something different about demos and various method about figuring out the trick before purchasing.

But if you want to switch over to talking completely about piracy, here is my position:

I think it shows laziness. The time you spend pirating could be spent performing what you already know, brainstorming about the trick and actually thinking, or researching the effect for reviews and performances. Or even working to get the money to legitimately purchase the product.

In my posts I was trying to show a way to get similar information to pirating, that would still let you make an informed decision, that's perfectly legal, and might help your magic in the long run.

This should only be used if you're going to compensate the creator if you use it.

Performing a non public domain trick that you have not paid for is stealing.

Randy says: "Work smarter, not harder." I think hard work will eventually pay off instead of shortcutting it by copying someone else's work. Thinking before seeing the answer isn't very hard work and it's fun. You get out what you put in.

Shane Black: The secret can be impressive because it is devious, bold, or new, but not in the same way as the effect.

Randomwrath: I'm saying that, of the two, piracy is worse for magic.

 

[nexusmagic]

Nexus Magic:

If you practice a move wrong, but it still works for you, you have adapted the trick to fit your hands. Isn't that a good thing?

Not really, If you perform a classic pass like you are cutting the deck is it still the classic pass?

does that mean that there is something terribly wrong with the Magic market

Ahhh I couldn't tell if this was an actual question so to get right to the point... Yes I know there is a problem with the magic market.

Why would you want a legal copy if you already have the contents? Just burn it to a DVD. It's not like the FBI is gonna storm in on you and search your magic DVDs. You gain nothing, unless you're doing it cuz you respect the creator and magic, as both an art and a business.

I choose the later, plus if I ever do get arrested for something that is only copyright deep at least I wouldn't have any hard copy bootleg dvds lying around. Also for me to take you even more seriously use proper English. Cuz is not a word because is.

If the industry was honest, then dishonest people could not blame their piracy on the industry's dishonesty and justify it.

Only in a perfect world, Knock knock, who's there Reality. Everyone is dishonest, at least I am voicing an opinion that apposes your "reverse engineering"

But if you want to switch over to talking completely about piracy, here is my position

No no by all means don't switch the conversation over, you are doing so well voicing your opinions about full demos and trying to prove the all seeing eye blinks.

I think it shows laziness. The time you spend pirating could be spent performing what you already know, brainstorming about the trick and actually thinking, or researching the effect for reviews and performances. Or even working to get the money to legitimately purchase the product.

I guess Lazy is the hot word on this forum, the time you spend analyzing my post could be spent learning and practicing your effects that you know; which you got ethically or unethically do to reverse engineering. Furthermore I am a hard working person, graduating in the top 10 percent, the problem is not that I am lazy it is I do not have income to spend on crap magic dvds, having to pay your way through college is at the forefront of my mind. If you want to give me 35 thousand a year so I can buy the magic dvds that I want to get then be my guest.

In my posts I was trying to show a way to get similar information to pirating, that would still let you make an informed decision, that's perfectly legal, and might help your magic in the long run.

I think certain people who bought pressure and reversed engineered it to the point that they could would disagree with you. Also it may be perfectly legal but is it perfectly ethical?
I might be playing devils advocate for something that I did a long time ago Limewire long time ago. I still have a great ethical standard now, I am just simply engaging in open debate. Now that is cleared back to the crossfire.

Performing a non public domain trick that you have not paid for is stealing.

It may be stealing, but it is only on an ethics level. What is non public domain tricks?
A patent?

I think hard work will eventually pay off instead of shortcutting it by copying someone else's work.

Copying is the first steps to great magic. The hard work comes later once the beginner has gotten use to taking on the role of a magician.

I'm saying that, of the two, piracy is worse for magic.

It isn't bad for magic, it is bad to the creator.
Piracy and Exposure helped push magic forward.

Now Piracy is a destructive force, but with death there is rebirth.

I have already seen the errors of my ways, and it is a part that has not been exercised for awhile now.

Ps

The dvds are pre theory11.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

Why would you want a legal copy if you already have the contents? Just burn it to a DVD. It's not like the FBI is gonna storm in on you and search your magic DVDs. You gain nothing, unless you're doing it cuz you respect the creator and magic, as both an art and a business.

Be careful bro. The FBI isn't gonna storm in on you for that. They would just knock on your door. Remember, if you get in trouble for that you face time in jail. And your IP is recorded.

Hahaha just kidding bro. But really.

 

[nexusmagic]

It is completly true. Why do you think I got a new computer and left the country.
That was a Yoke by the way.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

That was a Yoke by the way.

That is very funny. Very funny.