Risk and Reward

[Randomwrath]

Randomwrath: I'm saying that, of the two, piracy is worse for magic.

I know you are. Key word in that sentence being 'worse'.
If I was a creator, I wouldn't care how people got my tricks for free. It wouldn't matter to me whether they figured it out from the trailer or whether they pirated it. They would still have got it for free. I still lose money. Therefore, they are both just as bad.
The only difference between the two is the legality issues behind pirating. Ethically, they are both just as bad, because, in the long run, they are both the same to the creator.

 

[Steerpike]

Nexus Magic:

If you practice a move wrong, but it still works for you, you have adapted the trick to fit your hands. Isn't that a good thing?

I could build my own car and give it a more personal touch. Does that automatically make it good?

But dealers should have something to show.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. None of that does me a lick of good because it just goes in circles about idealism without getting anything practical done.

one that is obviously edited to conceal the faults,

And how exactly would your suggestion of hackneyed cinematography solve that?

They're leaving it up to chance that their potential customer sees an amazing performance and decides to buy it.

Ever had a job in sales?

If the industry was honest, then dishonest people could not blame their piracy on the industry's dishonesty and justify it.

Again, irrelevant. Because it tells me nothing practical nor does it bring us even a step closer to a solution.

We were talking about something different about demos and various method about figuring out the trick before purchasing.

But if you want to switch over to talking completely about piracy, here is my position:

In practical terms reverse engineering and piracy have the exact same result.

I'm thinking of results, and you still seem to be stuck on ideals.

I think it shows laziness. The time you spend pirating could be spent performing what you already know, brainstorming about the trick and actually thinking, or researching the effect for reviews and performances. Or even working to get the money to legitimately purchase the product.

Ah, so now people who pirate are lazy too? Tell me, what the hell does this have to do with working toward a solution?

In my posts I was trying to show a way to get similar information to pirating, that would still let you make an informed decision, that's perfectly legal, and might help your magic in the long run.

In other words, you found a loophole and are now looking for the moral high ground. I'm not impressed.

"Work smarter, not harder." I think hard work will eventually pay off

Once again, the real world tends to disagree with you.

Randomwrath: I'm saying that, of the two, piracy is worse for magic.

And I'm saying you're wrong.

A recent study conducted by Norwegian business students found that people who pirate music actually end up spending more money on iTunes than people who don't. I'd suggest that this phenomenon is not exclusive to music.

 

[aznofspades]

nexusmagic: It's not a classic pass, but if it accomplishes what you want and you are satisfied with it go ahead.

I say one slang word and you get on me for grammar?

It's an ideal, but I think it's something that people could strive for. To be as honest as possible. Be the change you want to see in the world.

Is that sarcasm? I'd like to think that even though you guys disagree with my opinion, you understand what I'm saying and acknowledge my way of thinking.

But analyzing your post helps me think about magic by opening me up to different points of view.
I'm saying pirating is taking the path of least resistance and that there are other ways to get the same information and avoid buying crap magic DVDs.

You're just figuring out a trick and paying for it if you're going to use it. It's like piracy, except without the part where you actually pirate the DVD.

I think if you figured out Pressure and decided that it wouldn't work for you and didn't purchase it, that's fine. If you knew the secret and decided that you wanted to use it, then go ahead and purchase it or contact the creators and explain your situation and listen to what they say.

Non public domain tricks are marketed effects that have specific creators. If anyone has a better definition, please say it we'll use that instead.

I said in one of my first posts that you should have a good teaching media for learning the basics of magic well. From then on you should try to make things your own by either creating your own stuff or adapting the tricks that you do perform.

Creators are an important part of magic. If it's bad for the creator, and they decide to stop releasing stuff because they decide they're not getting paid enough for their time, we miss out. I think someone else already stated this point.

That's the Masked Magician way of thinking. I think it is true, but it is even more idealistic than mine. And some people don't do it for magic, they do it out of greed.

P.S. I wasn't specifically addressing you when I was calling pirates lazy.

Sir Fansalot: Haha yea. I was kidding too. That's why I said "It's not like..."

Nexusmagic:

Why do you think I got a new computer and left the country.

Ahhh I couldn't tell if this was an actual question so to get right to the point... Yes I know there is a problem with the magic market.

Randomwrath: I agree. "Ethically" But to Steerpike, how is that not the kind of idealistic thinking that you say is "irrelevant"?

Steerpike: If the car that you builds works for you and you are satisfied with it, then it is good. I would personally like to see the Steermobile.

My suggestion would allow creators to demonstrate the effect in such a way that is honest to the spectator's interpretation of the effect, but does not completely show the intricacies of the trick.

If you don't have your own demo of the effect, isn't it logical that the customer will go somewhere to find one? And you leave it up to chance that they see a good performance and come back and purchase it from you.

Are you saying that I present the ideals that should be strived for by individuals, but you present the realities? Because I agree. I think that ideals and principles are what ethics and personal beliefs should be based on, but nobody is perfect.

I'm not trying to impress you. I'm trying to make informed decisions with magic. It's not that I'm trying to beat the system, it's just a few seconds of thinking that will tell you if something will work for you.

I believe that if you work harder for something, you will appreciate it more when you finally achieve it. I think there should be a balance between hard work and being smart.

“Intelligence without ambition is a bird without wings.“
-Salvador Dali -

The study is logical if you think about it, but are you implying that spending more money on magic is what is good for magic?

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike: If the car that you builds works for you and you are satisfied with it, then it is good. I would personally like to see the Steermobile.

Oh god...

Just because I built it and the engine doesn't explode upon turning over doesn't mean it's a good car. Yeah, it may get me from place to place, but what if it needs constant repairs? What if the mileage sucks? What if the emissions aren't up to code?

Just because it's personalized does not make it good.

And to be honest, I abhor the phrase "good enough". That's a ****ty excuse for laziness and stagnation.

My suggestion would allow creators to demonstrate the effect in such a way that is honest to the spectator's interpretation of the effect, but does not completely show the intricacies of the trick.

And I have told you about ten times that it isn't going to work because you are still assuming that you can get a camera to perfectly replicate the experience of the human eye and the human mind. You have ignored me every single time in favor of reiterating the supposed virtues of your idea.

I'm telling you this as a filmmaker. Someone who understands cameras, editing, and cinematography. You know, because I actually work with them for a career. Do you really think I'm pulling this out of my ass?

If you don't have your own demo of the effect, isn't it logical that the customer will go somewhere to find one? And you leave it up to chance that they see a good performance and come back and purchase it from you.

That assumes that every single person on the face of the planet thinks that way. When the truth is that they don't.

I have numerous magic books in my library for which no demo exists. I am buying the information contained within sight unseen. By your logic, I am some kind of super-rare, perverted psychological aberration. Or a robot.

I don't require trailers to make my decision. I either go to Google for product reviews, or I decide to take a calculated risk. Either way, I am responsible for my own actions. And a trailer using your amateurish concept of cinematography is not going to in any way help me. Half the time, I don't even watch the trailer if it does exist.

Are you saying that I present the ideals that should be strived for by individuals, but you present the realities? Because I agree. I think that ideals and principles are what ethics and personal beliefs should be based on, but nobody is perfect.

I'm saying you're focusing on ideals to the point where you have become useless to the process of finding a solution.

It's not that I'm trying to beat the system, it's just a few seconds of thinking that will tell you if something will work for you.

I don't need a trailer to think.

I believe that if you work harder for something, you will appreciate it more when you finally achieve it. I think there should be a balance between hard work and being smart.

What you're suggesting isn't being smarter. You're just creating more work for yourself. The path of least resistance is not always a bad thing.

For example, given the option between having to figure everything out for myself and having a small handful of mentors to guide me, I'll take the latter option every time. And anyone with an ounce of sense and the ability to set their pride aside for a second will do the same.

The study is logical if you think about it, but are you implying that spending more money on magic is what is good for magic?

No. I'm hypothesizing that there is a fundamental flaw in the perception of piracy. Specifically that they're existence is purely parasitic.

 

[aznofspades]

Well then you would not be satisfied with it?

It would mean that you are human. And that you can't build the perfect car on the first try. So over time you would refine it. And you would take the time to do it because you had invested a part of yourself into that car toward reaching your initial vision.

Or maybe that's just me.

Ok. What I am proposing with the demos is completely possible as it has been done by Wayne Houchin and Jay Sankey. I think the rules that Mark Wilson stated about performing magic on television should be upheld in the case of producing demos. The David Blaine style of performing and filming would work. I'm not saying it has to be perfect. Lately Ellusionist has had very honest demos and in the case of Rich Ferguson's Tagged they showed a full performance minus the pre show. Which is fine, I'm not saying what the spectator sees, but what they remember in their mind.

But books are different. People don't pirate books as frequently. And if you buy a book, it is extremely unlikely that there isn't at least one idea that you will use in some shape or form.

A crappy demo will still give you an idea of the effect. It helps cut thru the hype in the effect description.

You don't have to have a trailer to figure out a trick. When I heard the description for Witness, the method just popped into my head. It wasn't a conscious effort. I then watched the demo to see if my method was the same as Lee Asher's. I decided that Witness was not the kind of trick that I would perform because I already have enough card tricks so I passed on that one.

I'm suggesting that we take a moment to stop and think before purchasing instead of just pirating. That is not significantly more work.

Do you mean real mentors or the instructors on pirated material?

Demos, effect descriptions, and reviews are all free methods to learn about a trick that the creator supports. Why not use the resources that the creator gives you instead of pirating?

Saying that pirates are purely parasitic is something that I disagree with. They're human beings. Saying that a human being contributes absolutely nothing to society and only takes from it is extreme. Pirates generate interest for magic by freely distributing the knowledge and I'm sure that there are some contributers to magic that have pirated stuff in the past that just don't tell us. But I still disapprove of their methods.

 

[Steerpike]

Well then you would not be satisfied with it?

It would mean that you are human. And that you can't build the perfect car on the first try. So over time you would refine it. And you would take the time to do it because you had invested a part of yourself into that car toward reaching your initial vision.

Or maybe that's just me.

To repeat: personalized does not automatically equal good.

Ok. What I am proposing with the demos is completely possible as it has been done by Wayne Houchin and Jay Sankey. I think the rules that Mark Wilson stated about performing magic on television should be upheld in the case of producing demos. The David Blaine style of performing and filming would work. I'm not saying it has to be perfect. Lately Ellusionist has had very honest demos and in the case of Rich Ferguson's Tagged they showed a full performance minus the pre show. Which is fine, I'm not saying what the spectator sees, but what they remember in their mind.

Mark Wilson would have probably agreed with me that Blizzard should not be performed on TV. It should not be filmed.

I state again and again and again that some magic just should not be filmed. Why are you ignoring that point? You have not presented me with an argument as to why I'm wrong in that regard, you just keep telling me the same thing about how you think the industry should be run.

But books are different. People don't pirate books as frequently. And if you buy a book, it is extremely unlikely that there isn't at least one idea that you will use in some shape or form.

Ha! I remember my days of piracy when I first started out in magic. Getting PDFs was a hell of a lot easier than it was to get video files. They were far more plentiful and much more seeded.

And you know what? I still ended up with a bunch of crap I never used.

A crappy demo will still give you an idea of the effect. It helps cut thru the hype in the effect description.

A set of really well-written reviews could do the same thing.

You don't have to have a trailer to figure out a trick. When I heard the description for Witness, the method just popped into my head. It wasn't a conscious effort. I then watched the demo to see if my method was the same as Lee Asher's. I decided that Witness was not the kind of trick that I would perform because I already have enough card tricks so I passed on that one.

That wasn't my point. I'm saying that I don't need a trailer to make a decision. I like to think that my literacy and ability to use Google is far more effective.

I'm suggesting that we take a moment to stop and think before purchasing instead of just pirating. That is not significantly more work.

It is if you choose to make it that way. Some people create more work for themselves then they have to out of the delusion of some virtue.

Do you mean real mentors or the instructors on pirated material?

You seriously just asked me that?

Demos, effect descriptions, and reviews are all free methods to learn about a trick that the creator supports. Why not use the resources that the creator gives you instead of pirating?

Good question. And this goes back to my point of why you're of no use to the magic community in finding a solution. You're not looking for the cause, you're just telling me why the symptom isn't moral enough.

Saying that pirates are purely parasitic is something that I disagree with. They're human beings. Saying that a human being contributes absolutely nothing to society and only takes from it is extreme.

Okay, now you're just splitting hairs.

My suggestion was that pirates are less harmful to magic than many knee-jerk reactionaries would like to believe. They are not parasites on the magic community, as I would suggest that they give back eventually. The paradigm is changing, and the business models in the magic industry must adjust to compensate.

 

[nexusmagic]

I'm saying pirating is taking the path of least resistance and that there are other ways to get the same information and avoid buying crap magic DVDs.

So what you are saying is that your reverse engineering and piracy are the same ethically? Just one is a little less work.

I think if you figured out Pressure and decided that it wouldn't work for you and didn't purchase it, that's fine. If you knew the secret and decided that you wanted to use it, then go ahead and purchase it or contact the creators and explain your situation and listen to what they say.

I was only using that as an example, nothing else.

Non public domain tricks are marketed effects that have specific creators.

If I read this correctly you are saying that a non public domain trick, is an effect that is openly marketed to the Public is a non public domain trick. My definition of a non public domain trick is Bizzaro's silk through hand, Teller's Shadow play, and many illusions.

I said in one of my first posts that you should have a good teaching media for learning the basics of magic well. From then on you should try to make things your own by either creating your own stuff or adapting the tricks that you do perform.

I think it was good teacher that is what initialy got me involved in this thread. But now that it is corrected I completly agree with the above statement. Except don't try, do.

Creators are an important part of magic. If it's bad for the creator, and they decide to stop releasing stuff because they decide they're not getting paid enough for their time, we miss out.

Oh Boohoo, not directed to the specific creators out there but to the people who are relying on a creator to feed them effects. You should be able to create infinite amounts of effects with a few books and a good multi-effect dvd.

 

[Reakan]

Ok, since there are 7 pages I have only read the original post and the first page and I had to disagree with your statement because the creators don't state if theres a clean up and if there is how hard it is:

The first effect I bought from T11 was Riot, I saw it and it seemed like a great ACR ending to me, the reviews said the gimmick was easy to make which is true, there is s small chance really of not having the materials needed to create it in your home, I had them so I made it but you know what? He only explained how to do the trick and how to make the gimmick, there was no footage about Dan Hauss actually performing it live, I think there was even a statement that it is a new, perfect ending for an ACR but in the end of an ACR the person knows the card and therefore you have no time to misdirect laymen to put the gimmick on and there is also no way to hide it in the deck, I have a pert in my ACR where I give the deck to them, they might notice if the gimmick is in the deck even if I don't and so its a hard effect and Dan doesn't even show how to perform it for people, unlike Crash Course 2 from ellusionist where Christian pointed out when he was doing which move, and I'm not saying that T11 is all bad and Ellusionist is really cool, I prefer T11 actually but for example W:H does his effects for people - Control, Indecent, Distortion, they are all done for people now I don't know anything about the clean up of those trick but at least he shows his effects for people and puts them in the DVD's, also I think it is stupid that DVD's don't have descriptions of trick with popular questions like do you end up clean, if no is the cleanup hard? Because I think effects like Riot are ridiculous because you not only have to clean up after the effect but also misdirect people to put it on the deck and there is no real time to do that in an ACR! It also states in the 1on1 section that the effect is easy and I tend to agree with that, however the gimmick on the deck and cleaning up is not, I think it should be stated as Intermediate. So I wont take my words back until I see Dan Hauss do it live, as an ending to an ACR!

 

[Randy]

The only one actually hurting magic is the guy who is improperly learning the routine or sleights.

Now I myself don't like pirating, but if I was to have my choice of the two. I'd most likely pirate something to check it out. If I liked the DVD or routine, then I'd go out and buy it. The same has been said for comic books. I've known comic writers who said that they USED to not like pirating, but because of it. More people were introduced to their work. The fact is this, if you pirate something you like. There is more of a chance of you deciding to go out and buy it.

When you sit around and try to come up with your own sleights or ideas for how something is done. You are just causing yourself some unneeded heart ache and head aches by going through all that. When you pirate something, you are still learning the moves and nuances and little details of the effects that make it work. The creator can tell you what angles work and what don't. How to properly present it and what to look out for.

 

[aznofspades]

Steerpike: I agree personalizing stuff doesn't necessarily mean its good. But if you honestly put yourself into it and make an effort then it's a starting point that you can work from as you refine it over time.

Ok. I admit that I've just been repeating my ideal of filming live performances, in magic where it's not about what is seen but what is perceived. And it's impossible to do that for all effects.

Does anyone have an actual copy of Mark Wilson's rules? I remember seeing the whole thing somewhere before and it's constantly referenced in posts about Criss Angel. About not cutting away and not using stooges?

Do you mean PDFs of entire books or just the quick shorter ones?

"A picture speaks a thousand words"

It just gives you a feel of the effect. That and a few reviews are all I need when I make a purchase.
The trailer can be used to cross-reference the reviews and effect description.

I still stand by the point that taking a few moments to think is easier than pirating the whole thing and watching/ reading it all.

Yes, it was a question. I wasn't sure from your post. Are you talking about real live mentors or instructors in a DVD?

I would definitely choose real live mentors over piracy and reverse engineering any day. And you're not figuring out everything just the gist of the effect so you can figure out if it works for you.

I'm offering a simple alternative toward those who pirate. Take it or leave it.
It's a way to help them paradigm shift quicker.

How do you suggest that the magic industry change?

My suggestion is that they be more upfront about their products, but I'd like to hear your ideas.

nexusmagic: No. Piracy gives you all of the information. Reverse engineering gives you a gist of the information. You watch the demo, read the description, read the review and you have a general idea of the effect. Isn't that enough to know whether it will work for you?

I was using pressure as an example too.

I think I wrote that definition wrong.

An effect that has a specific recognized creator that has not explicitly given permission for the trick to be distributed freely.

I'm not saying that we need creators to feed us effects. But if creators start being selfish with their idea, magic will stop being a brotherhood where we help and inspire each other by sharing our ideas. I am unable to think of a single practical working trick that was developed in a vacuum with no input from other magicians.

Reekan: I'll let other people respond to your post first. But I agree as I've said before that Wayne Houchin's honesty in his demos should be an ideal that other marketers should strive for WHENEVER POSSIBLE. (thanks for clearing that bit up Steerpike)

Read reviews if you want to find out about the pros and cons of a certain effect.

Or write your own if you feel so strongly about it.

If you want to talk more about the ACR feel free to PM me or post in one of the many threads here about it. I'm sure you'll get interesting feedback.

Randy: Bad magic is the only thing that truly hurts magic.

I personally think researching the effect through reviews and watching performances will help you too.

I'm saying that when a trick sparks an idea in your head, you should expand on those thoughts as if you already own the DVD. So if you end up actually buying the DVD, you're ahead of the game.

A few moments of thinking is not very hard.

 

[Randy]

Steerpike: I agree personalizing stuff doesn't necessarily mean its good. But if you honestly put yourself into it and make an effort then it's a starting point that you can work from as you refine it over time.

He could build his own car and "refine" it over time. Tho that wouldn't do him any good sense he probably doesn't know how to build a car and it would be too costly trying to get the right parts. Why not just go and buy an already made working one and save yourself the trouble.

Randy: Bad magic is the only thing that truly hurts magic.

I personally think researching the effect through reviews and watching performances will help you too.

I'm saying that when a trick sparks an idea in your head, you should expand on those thoughts as if you already own the DVD. So if you end up actually buying the DVD, you're ahead of the game.

The problem with that is that a lot of the times they can lie in reviews and over hype something.

 

[aznofspades]

Randy: I thought it was just an analogy. If you are willing to put in the effort and money to building a car by yourself go ahead. Experiment. Take risks. Make your vision a reality. It will mean a lot more to you than if you just bought it. It's your choice.

I was thinking more of like a Pimp My Ride sorta thing. Where you take an existing idea and you build onto it.

If everyone thought like that, there would be no innovation at all.

Dishonest reviews:

Using dishonest piracy to counteract dishonesty in reviews is like fighting fire.
Why not just use water?

Think about the product you're buying and get a basic idea of it to help you decide. Look in other places for reviews.

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike: I agree personalizing stuff doesn't necessarily mean its good. But if you honestly put yourself into it and make an effort then it's a starting point that you can work from as you refine it over time.

But there's so much else to do in life, why should I have to build a car when I can just buy one made by a professional automobile designer? And if I really want that custom look, there's always decals, detail painting, vanity plates...

Of course, there's always the risk that in customizing it, it's going to become a garish eyesore. And then there's those really obnoxious modifications that some people think really make them stand out as individuals. Anybody remember Bubb Rubb?

Ok. I admit that I've just been repeating my ideal of filming live performances, in magic where it's not about what is seen but what is perceived. And it's impossible to do that for all effects.

Thank you. Moving on...

Do you mean PDFs of entire books or just the quick shorter ones?

I mean whole books. There are torrents out there for The Tarbell Course in its entirety. Yeah, you get the short ones too, the little booklets. But just about everything is being torrented at this point.

That and a few reviews are all I need when I make a purchase.
The trailer can be used to cross-reference the reviews and effect description.

And I generally don't use it anyway.

Yes, it was a question. I wasn't sure from your post. Are you talking about real live mentors or instructors in a DVD?

It's an extremely grim commentary on the magic industry that I have to answer. Real mentors.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go kill my liver a little more.

And you're not figuring out everything just the gist of the effect so you can figure out if it works for you.

Or you could stop and consider if it's something you'll actually use in the first place. I don't buy the latest and greatest card tricks because I'll never use them.

I'm offering a simple alternative toward those who pirate. Take it or leave it.
It's a way to help them paradigm shift quicker.

No it isn't. They already know the option exists. This is not a dramatic epiphany for them. They know your way exists, they're just not taking it.

Again, you're offering the solution to the effect, but you don't understand the cause.

My suggestion is that they be more upfront about their products, but I'd like to hear your ideas.

Shareware magic.

I say magicians should learn to accept the p2p networks instead of fighting them.

But if creators start being selfish with their idea, magic will stop being a brotherhood where we help and inspire each other by sharing our ideas.

You mean it hasn't happened already?

Much as we like to pretend otherwise, there is no real solidarity among the magic community. It's strictly tribal.

 

[Randy]

Magic is still a "brotherhood." just that from what I have read (the Magic Cafe mostly.) A lot of the time I see the supposed "mentors" in magic bickering over who took who's routine or who took who's sleights or whatever. Now this doesn't happen all the time. But I have seen a lot of it on The magic cafe which is supposedly one of the leading magic forums.

Steerpike is right tho. There is so much more to life than him trying to build a car or something. Like I said, it saves you the time and heart ache if you learn the effect properly. You don't end up looking like a fool, because you've learned from somebody Else's experience.

 

[nexusmagic]

How do you suggest that the magic industry change?
Magic has become more available and easy to get too.

My suggestion is that they be more upfront about their products, but I'd like to hear your ideas.
If they where, in my opinion they wouldn't sell anything.

nexusmagic: No. Piracy gives you all of the information. Reverse engineering gives you a gist of the information. You watch the demo, read the description, read the review and you have a general idea of the effect. Isn't that enough to know whether it will work for you?
My point of the post is that if I did figure out a trick that I really wanted, once I actually went through the entire process I would just run with it and use it. But this is just as bad if not worse than pirating. When you reverse engineer a trick you, might have the tendancy to miss the subtlties that helps make the effect work. By pirating you at least have someone explaining every little detail and subtlty that you might miss in the demo.

I was using pressure as an example too.

I think I wrote that definition wrong.
It was, I was steering you in the right direction


An effect that has a specific recognized creator that has not explicitly given permission for the trick to be distributed freely.
This is correct, but if you put it on dvd you are selling your information, you can compyright the dvd, but not the method.

I'm not saying that we need creators to feed us effects. But if creators start being selfish with their idea, magic will stop being a brotherhood where we help and inspire each other by sharing our ideas. I am unable to think of a single practical working trick that was developed in a vacuum with no input from other magicians.

I wouldn't say it is selfish to with hold tricks from going on dvds, I think it is a great idea. I use to share ideas, but some of my ideas where good ones and realized I really shouldn't be posting them for thousands to see. Magic is, and always will be a a brotherhood. I feel though that it is relying on the internet way to much.
Like previously stated the internet has made the world smaller.

My reply to the post is in Yellow.