Sigh...

Sep 1, 2007
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I think we can all agree on the fact that there are a lot of people that are doing magic that just shouldn't be.

I could say the same for music and filmmaking, both of which are very dear to me. That doesn't mean I need to go on a crusade.

And I thought I would let everyone know that you seem to have a personal vendetta (since you are an E moderator) and not just trying to systematically tear down peoples arguments.

Not at all. I actually have immense respect for the founders of the site. It's the politics and fanboys here on the forums that I don't care for. I've said it time and again: there is no rivalry except in the minds of the gullible.

The administrators created these forums with the intent of unifying the magic community. That's one of the reasons I'm still here. The problem is that not everyone seems to understand that.

Lol Steerpike.... Try to actually make a point rather than "diss" other people about their statements....

I've set out to do two main things.

First, I asked someone to explain to me how advertising devalues magic and what proof there is of that statement. Thus far, no one has volunteered an answer.

Second, I have reaffirmed my stance that threads like this always turn out the same. There is no rivalry, but there are people here who like to pretend there is. Would you like me to point to some examples?

And as for your comment on my previous post... on economy and dog eat dog....

I'm 23 actually, fresh out of college. And if you're a school kid, then you're not really in a great position to tell other people how capitalism works. I confess that I'm no expert, but I know better than to grossly oversimplify and misrepresent the process in an attempt to be glib.

We all say stupid things at some point. No sense getting your knickers in a twist when someone notices.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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It's real easy to say that when you don't have to confront someone face-to-face.

I'm willing to bet you've never shared so much as a hello, nevermind a conversation with anyone on the staff. What exactly are you basing your opinions on, and what is your proof?

I can't wait to meet that guy, I have so much to say to him. :)

The fact that Ellusionist indeed started as a company that was selling secrets to the tricks that David Blaine made popular is what I find wrong. The site gave the impression that Blaine had given his permission to do that but it was later found out that he had not.

Also renaming other peoples effects and teaching them without a permission is equally not-cool.

How did Brad Christian reply to the criticism he received after trying to cover his tracks? Here's a quote from Genii forums:

"Oh, get off your high [Big Grin] horse and have some fun Andy!"


Now you can compare this to the mistake that T11 made with DD and how they took care of it.


Did you even watch the show?

It doesn't broadcast worldwide. I would propably have a lot more to say about that if it ever did.



Congratulations, you have just figured out what advertising is for.

Thanks, but I still can't see why magic should be advertised. If there really is a good trick or a book then people would get it without watching well edited videos and huge ads all around. A good trick doesn't need advertisement. If the trick sells because of ads then the trick isn't very good.



Shall I pass that along to Wayne Houchin, Danny Garcia, Justin Miller, and Nate Kranzo among every other contributor to the company?
Are seriously saying that tricks like Kaos, Axis Change, Fallen, King Rising etc. are good tricks? What's the deal with making Box Monster a separate trick and not include it in the Loops DVD set? And why to have 3 different DVDs when the material in there would easily fit in one DVD? Why does Ultragaff have filler cards if it's so ultra? There's just so many things that I don't understand.



XCMers love the Tigers and Vipers. And I love using Ghosts.

So... what's that about no purpose?

XCMrs might like them, but Elluionist sells them for magic. Card magic is about doing magic with ordinary cards...

Let's have a little quote from our favourite article:

"Because, after all, if the beauty and power of sleight of hand lies is the ability to do magic with ordinary objects, as opposed to relying on unnatural props - which is precisely why Victorian and Edwardian era apparatus either became extinct or was relegated to the kid-show magic ghetto - then these special cards are a giant step backwards, as the simple trustworthiness of a pack of commonplace and recognizable playing cards suddenly becomes transformed into a spectacularly suspicious object - or, as it says right in the advertising video: "A deck never before seen." As if that were a good thing."



It's very easy to project your hang-ups onto people, but quite another to actually talk to them.
Right, but as you can clearly see the fact that this is a forum and there is no way to go directly face-to-face with our Ultimate Street Magic Guru and share my views.

I guess I just have to keep waiting to get a chance to meet the guy.

http://www.antinomymagic.com/swiss.htm
 
Jan 27, 2008
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Umm..did you guys forget or did you just not know that the CEO of T11(J.Bayme) was for a while, with E, and the way i see it, if it weren't for E there would be no T11.
 
Oct 6, 2007
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Can you honestly tell me this thread was going anywhere great before I got here?



That is what it will inevitably become. There are too many people here with a vendetta to settle and they will choke out all other conversation. You gave these rabble an excuse to complain, and they will be all over that like ugly on ape.



How does that work?



By the logic you're using, the art of playing guitar has been destroyed by the schmucks on college campuses who learn how to play pop singles to impress girls at parties.

As to your blood, sweat, and tears, what about hobbyists? They don't make the same sacrifices and dedications that working professionals do because there's no reason to, not enough pay-off for the self-sacrifice. Are they somehow detrimental?

Well done in again, picking out everything you can criticize and ingoring the MAIN point of my post.

As for the point you made, the best hobbyists DO put their blood, sweat and tears into their magic. The ones that don't, are the kids complaining here about why they suck at performing in school, etc. People who fail to really work their butts off when practising are the ones who are making the art deteriorate- by giving magic an image of...crap.

This is going to be my last post directly addressing you Steerpike. You know it, I know it, all you do in this forum is make people pissed off at you- and pick out everything you can talk trash about while leaving everything out.

First, I asked someone to explain to me how advertising devalues magic and what proof there is of that statement. Thus far, no one has volunteered an answer.

Actually you didn't. All you did was criticize other people's statements.

Better question: why should I care? I'm not being cute. I honestly don't get what all the fuss is about. Anytime magic appears on TV, there's a group of people who start claiming it devalues magic, but they never explain how.

If you don't care, then why are you still on this thread?
 
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Oct 6, 2007
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Umm..did you guys forget or did you just not know that the CEO of T11(J.Bayme) was for a while, with E, and the way i see it, if it weren't for E there would be no T11.

This is not a thread about E vs. T11- we have enough of those.

Please READ my inital post before trying to sound like a smarta**.

I'm talking about the way Ellusionst MARKETS their magic products.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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The fact that Ellusionist indeed started as a company that was selling secrets to the tricks that David Blaine made popular is what I find wrong. The site gave the impression that Blaine had given his permission to do that but it was later found out that he had not.

Also renaming other peoples effects and teaching them without a permission is equally not-cool.

This is what's called picking at an old scar.

The issue has long since been corrected. To continue harping on it is classless.

It doesn't broadcast worldwide. I would propably have a lot more to say about that if it ever did.

So you haven't watched the show, but you will gladly criticize it? Am I the only one who sees the faulty logic there?

A good trick doesn't need advertisement.

Bull****. If good tricks don't need advertising, then why does every magic messageboard have a review section?

All aboard the clue train! Reviews are a form of advertising.

Are seriously saying that tricks like Kaos, Axis Change, Fallen, King Rising etc. are good tricks?

The only one I own is King Rising, and I can't perform that because of wardrobe restrictions. I won't go into it any further because that would entail exposure. Since I don't own any of the other effects, I can't judge.

That said, do you want to tell me that Silver Dream sucks? Or the Scorpion kit? How about the Loops trilogy? Flow? Stigmata?

In your efforts to fulfill a vendetta, you're aiming a shotgun blindly.

XCMrs might like them, but Elluionist sells them for magic. Card magic is about doing magic with ordinary cards...

That's what Jay Sankey says, but you'll notice that Justin Miller uses Vipers and Guardians. Ever read Capricornian Tales by Christian Chelman? Ever read any of Mark Edward's books?

I've been using Ghosts for about 2 years now and no one has accused me of using a trick deck in about a year and a half.

I have no problem with people who don't use custom props or prefer only borrowed objects. That's their personal style. But mine is just as legit, and it's disengenuous to tell me otherwise when you've never seen me perform.

Right, but as you can clearly see the fact that this is a forum and there is no way to go directly face-to-face with our Ultimate Street Magic Guru and share my views.

You're talking to me right now. It doesn't have to be face-to-face.

Actually you didn't. All you did was criticize other people's statements.

Since you refuse to believe I asked before, then I'm asking you now.

How does advertising detrimentally affect magic and what proof do you have of that? What counts as good advertising and what is bad? What are you basing these observations on?

If you don't care, then why are you still on this thread?

Because I want an answer.

In lieu of that answer, all you've done is yell at me.
 
Jan 27, 2008
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you missed the point completely! what i'm getting at is: where do you think J. Bayme learned how to run a magic business, or how to market products? his approach is just in a different direction, he is just better at marketing and not making it seem so obvious, i.e. the buy a brick of guardians for a chance at 12 bricks, how many people do u think bought multiple bricks that day? and how much money do you think that raked into j bayme's wallet? yes ellusionist is trying to make money so does any other business! E just tries to do it on a different scale. t11 is underground and from the looks of it always will be. E is trying to branch out further than t11. and so what if its to make money! THEY ARE A BUSINESS AND THATS WHAT BUSINESSES DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just to a different extent. what if t11 put a commercial out there about the guardians and their one-on-one section? would you ***** about that too?
 
Oct 6, 2007
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@ Steerpike:

I do not have the time to write much. But what I can say is that magic shouldn't be advertised like any regular commerical product, to avoid the light-hearted from damaging the art.

Oh and if you want an answer, that means you DO care- don't say you don't.
@Magic_Murray:

I never said that Theory11 was marketing the 'right way'. Their 12 hour 25% discount was most definately a great way to market a product. However, they are not selling the secrets to many excellent effects like Ellusionst are with the 'Street Magic Package'. They were selling CARDS. Selling cards to the public will not damge the art- selling SECRETS of our art to the public could. Ellusionist is giving a discount on a DVD full of magic secrets, with the chance to return and get your money back when you're done watching? I mean, what could be worse than that? Allowing people to find out magic secrets, and then get their money back!? Geez....

I like how Steerpike misses the point of every post.

Ditto- agreed 101%
 
Sep 1, 2007
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I like how Steerpike misses the point of every post.

Then explain it to me. What is the point? Assume I really am that stupid.

to avoid the light-hearted from damaging the art.

How would they do that?

Oh and if you want an answer, that means you DO care- don't say you don't.

I asked you why I should care. I don't understand what the big deal is. I'm challenging you to explain it to me.
 
Oct 6, 2007
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Wow. you're a tough kid aren't you? Challenging me?

Well, what are you going to do about me not answering, since I have better things to do with my life then hang around internet forums and ***** about others?
Continue talking trash?
Enjoy!
 
Jan 11, 2008
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france
I quickly skimmed through the thread and what cracks me up is how much people i see repeating:

magic is an art.

sounds pretty doesn't it?

please people, refrain from using a 1 phrase post unless it is truly insightful.
magic is an art true, but how is that relevant in any way? are you saying art cannot be sold?

every art till this day has been exploited, all these people who make money with magic including all the artists on this website may be in it for the art but they also love the money.

Everyone here is a magician or an xcm'er, but magicians in particular, remember the first book, video or magic set you got? if this magic exploitation did not exist you would not be here right now.

In conclusion ladies and gents, ellusionist is not evil, it is not destroying our art in any way. I know many people are going to get angry at the following especially the theory 11 fanboys. but theory 11 and ellusionist are identical, theory 11 are just much better at selling their products and making them look "cool".
 
Jan 27, 2008
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@ Steerpike:


I never said that Theory11 was marketing the 'right way'. Their 12 hour 25% discount was most definately a great way to market a product. However, they are not selling the secrets to many excellent effects like Ellusionst are with the 'Street Magic Package'. They were selling CARDS. Selling cards to the public will not damge the art- selling SECRETS of our art to the public could. Ellusionist is giving a discount on a DVD full of magic secrets, with the chance to return and get your money back when you're done watching? I mean, what could be worse than that? Allowing people to find out magic secrets, and then get their money back!? Geez....


ok i see you perspective a bit better now
 
Oct 6, 2007
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Again, I'm not saying Ellusionst as a whole is 'evil'. I'm just saying that I disagree with they way they have advertised their new Street Magic Package like a product advertised on TV.

Before then, their marketing was identical to Theory11's right now, which I believe is suitable. But once they cross the line, it ruins the secrecy behind the magic.

Can we discuss the way magic is advertised now?
 
Apr 5, 2008
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guys, guys....

Yo! Why don't we all chill out man...

Let's just put it like this... Respect each company's way of marketing and or money-making and just take advantage of what they are offering us in the process, right?

This squabble and insult-throwing here and there ain't worth it...

Peace! :D
 
Sep 1, 2007
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But once they cross the line, it ruins the secrecy behind the magic.

That's the thing I don't understand. I don't see the progression from TV advert to death of magic. There's some steps in between that, and I have no idea what they're supposed to be.
 
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