Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by darosa.justin, May 27, 2008.

  1. This is what I was talking about earlier. Vendettas and ignorance rule over actual discussion. Trying to get meaningful conclusions out of threads like this is, to quote Aaron Williams, like entering the running of the bulls in Spain and trying to make it out with a steak dinner. I'm trying, but it's not getting any easier.
  2. darosa.justin, i just toke a look on the new street magic trailer, and read through the posts.

    All the anti-E argument are simply based on one thing, that bad publicity/advertisement/marketing is damaging for the magic community and will so called lead to the downfall of the "art".

    How ever that has never been proven and possibly never will, instead of trying to debunk all the counter-arguments how about you provide some facts to your claim and with that i mean
    #1, What was the ACTUAL damage and how bad was it?
    #2, How is it related to the bad advertisement/publicity/marketing?
    #3, What leads you to the thoughts that it will result in a longterm negative effects to our magic community

    Try list your findings based on actual facts and social statistics instead of your personal opinion.

    while u are working on gathering some of the prove to your claim, here are several facts for you to think about:

    #1, alot of us started our magic carrier by learning the first trick from some exposure site after watching some amazing performance by a master magician, then realize god there is alot more to it than just the how, and start to devote our time in to the art.

    #2, magic is now more popular than ever, it is impossible to find anyone who has never seen an magic act before on Tv/live/what ever, compares to 100 years ago which was common.

    #3, if bad publicity would mean the death of an art then how come everyone is still listening to music? and be as it may i have heard so many bad song that i cant even count with 10 times my fingers.

  3. Well I have more of a life than just sitting at my computer all day and proving my point. I don't have to prove anything to any of you, and the point of this thread was to discuss the marketing of magic, not to prove how 'bad' marketing has affected magic.

    To you people that enjoy proving yourself and frankly, talking about useless stuff- have fun!
  4. Yes you do. You made a claim, and then when people disagreed with you, you resorted to personal attacks and macho swaggering to try and shake them off. That is not how discourse works. Don't say anything you're not prepared to back up.

    If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then you have no business opening your mouth in the first place. I and others have tried to be civil with you, and this childish whining and name-calling is how you have unfailingly responded throughout the entire thread.
  5. If Marketing has no negative impact then what is the point of your post to begin with?
  6. #47 Tyler Johnson, May 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2008
    First of all, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm merely going back through, addressing some matters, and answering some questions.

    It's relevant to the discussion so that people know where you're coming from. I think it was perfectly fine to bring up.

    Yes, but music and film making are not arts which have secrets that need to be protected.

    Which is exactly the point he was trying to make. You have respect for them, therefore if anyone attacks them you have a personal vendetta.

    Advertising publicly on television devalues magic. Now, this might sound old fashioned and like I'm being a hermit, but it's true.

    I don't think we should be sucking the public into magic with advertisements. If someone is truly interested in magic, they will go and learn. But there are advertisements from E that basically say, "You can do the trick in two seconds...", "You can perform powerful street magic if you buy this DVD". They're trying to suck people in and get them interested in magic. People that, before seeing an advertisement, want to know how to perform magic will respect it more and will not put up: exposure videos, bad performance videos, and eventually leave the art.

    No, he hasn't seen the show but I do see the logic there. Why? Because he saw the trailer for the street magic bundle and if I hadn't seen the show I would make the same observations about the show.

    Actually, tricks do need advertising. But, there is a thin line between false advertising and advertising to let people know about a trick.

    False advertising would be what E does (i.e. "You can do the trick in two seconds...", "You can perform powerful street magic if you get this DVD...", "Prepare for explosive audience reactions."). They make their tricks out to be some amazing never before seen impossible miracle that will always get an amazing reactions from your audience even if you practice it for two seconds!

    A good advertisement would be showing a performance of the trick, some background information about it's origins, and whether it involves gimmicks, etc.

    So you do care. Also, I haven't heard anyone yell, you know you're reading these posts.

    I'm sorry, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Do you wish to have some examples? Just so you know, being sarcastic towards people is insulting.

    Frankly, the reason I don't like E is because of their advertising. I understand that E is a business and needs to make money to stay afloat. But making money without respecting the art is wrong, you can still make money and respect the art. Peace!

  7. One word: owned.
  8. #49 Steerpike, May 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2008
    I asked him, not you. We talked and there is no bad blood between us.

    Knowing how to do something and knowing how to do it well are two entirely different things.

    I was referring to the founders of Theory-11.

    I've spent months talking to my audiences about this very issue. Based on their responses, I don't buy that anymore.

    Did you ever try talking to your audiences about different issues with magic? Did anybody here? I seriously think I'm the only person in this thread who thought to do any such thing, and that's depressing.

    No matter which way you slice it, it's still assumption based on hearsay. That's not a valid argument, and it never will be.

    Two seconds? What ad was that specifically?

    Anyway, what they're doing is really no different from the ads you saw in vintage comic books for pocket tricks like the ball and tube or the color-changing knives. Comic books back then were as popular as TV is now. And yet... here we all are.

    That's what an experienced magician wants to see.

    What a newbie wants to see is entirely different. Don't you remember what it was like to be a newbie?

    I care about magic.

    As for yelling, I had hoped people would realize I was speaking metaphorically.

    So is the implication here that me making sarcastic comments justifies people calling me stupid and personally attacking me?

    Some of the quotes you listed weren't even sarcasm. When I asked him if he ever watched the show, that was a serious question.
  9. #50 Tyler Johnson, May 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2008
    I wasn't trying to attack you, just merely stating that it was relevant to state and I can answer if I wish. You aren't the moderator of what I answer.

    Yes, but my point was, we don't want people knowing how we do our magic. They are free to know how film making is done, even if they can't do it.

    Sorry, I didn't read the post before yours so I didn't get the context.

    You don't buy it anymore? If it weren't for those advertisements, people wouldn't even be looking into magic. And I have no idea why the heck you would talk to your spectators about such things.

    My point was that we shouldn't be pulling the public in. It might sound stingy, but we do need those people to perform too. I don't want to direct anyone to magic and tell them they should try it out and buy things.

    Birds of a feather flock together. If these contestants from Celebracadabra are supporting E fully and you don't like E, what opinion of them do you form? Now, they are all on this show, every single one of them. Which is also a show sponsored by E. Do you get what I'm saying? E is associated with it in so many ways, how could anyone that doesn't like E like it? It's a matter of opinion.

    Well, I heard the wrong thing on the street magic bundle. He actually said two minutes. But, I re-checked the two after that and both are in descriptions right on E which you seemed to have forgotten to address.

    Yes, I remember what it was like as a newbie. BUT, with the description that the trick would do all these things and it didn't disappointed me. I wasted my hard earned money (which I didn't have a lot of at the time) on a crappy trick I actually threw away. Sites with such descriptions have lost my business and I know many people that went through the same thing. I can get them all on here if you like so that they can tell you the same exact thing.

    E's advertising is underhanded, un-truthful, and just done so they can make money. They don't respect the art, they respect money. And they should be respecting both as a company, and as one that sells magic.

    Once again sarcasm flows through. I did realize what you said was metaphoric. I was making a point. The point I was trying to make is that you don't know peoples intentions, you have no idea if they were angry and yelling at you, or if they were just merely making a comment.

    First, my implication was that no one else whined about being insulted by you, so you shouldn't either. NOW, understand that I am not saying being insulting is fine. I personally hate it on forums and wish mods would edit anything insulting out of posts. BUT, don't insult and expect to not be insulted back.

    As for some of the of the listed sarcastic comments, you stated that only "some" were not. So "some" were and therefore insulting. Now I have drawn out from you that some were in fact sarcastic and now I have proof. So yeah, you just got "played".


  10. #51 Aris.SA, May 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2008
    Are you playing here to, who make the longest thread?
  11. In an attempt to lighten the situation I decided to depict how I see all this bickering. This is in no way an attempt to attack specific members. It was made in good fun.

    Attached Files:

  12. Merely pointing out that I wanted to know his intentions.

    Honestly, I don't think it's as big a deal as everybody thinks it is. There's always a way to overcome.

    Why wouldn't I? Everyone's talking about what the audience is going to think because of this show or that commercial... Why not just ask them?

    But at the same time we need to continue rotating fresh new blood into the scene.

    My initiation into magic was pure serendipity, and now I've gone professional. No sane person would say such a situation is a bad thing.

    What harm could there possibly be in watching a few episodes in order to make an informed decision?

    I at least tried to sit through reading one of those awful Left Behind books before I decided they were garbage.

    I hate to resort to this analogy again, but look at commercials for Bowflex. They show oiled bodybuilders using those machines. Are you going to look like that? Probably not. Does it count as false advertising? As far as I'm concerned, no.

    Same thing with E.

    I think the laity are much smarter than you give them credit for.

    So because you didn't like a trick that was hyped up, the company doesn't respect magic?

    When are artists going to start taking some responsibility?

    Stop blaming your dealers for everything that goes wrong. I've bought tricks I didn't like. Doesn't mean I have to blame the creator or the distributor.

    When they're launching tirades of profanity at me, it's pretty transparent.

    I've never denied being sarcastic. It's my native tongue.
  13. #54 orchestrion, May 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2008
    Did you really just say that over the Internet?

  14. I was telling you because the need to bring that up the fact that you're an E moderator was obvious.

    Lets take every trick you perform/know and expose them to some spectators. Then you can perform for them and see how "amazed" they are. It is a big deal and it has been for hundreds of years. To say it isn't a big deal is ridiculous.

    I could care less what people think of some show or commercial. All I care about is what they think of my magic.

    Yes, we do need fresh blood on the scene. Fresh blood that respects that art, will practice the art, and is actually interested in the art. Not people that perform magic because they want to be the next Criss Angel and go out and perform a trick two minutes after they have learned it.

    There wouldn't be any harm, but it's pretty easy to figure out you won't like the show, even if you don't watch it. I'm sure the guy that hadn't seen it had read about it and maybe even seen trailers for it. If you watch a trailer for a movie and it looks like crap to you, do you then get all excited about it and go see it in theaters or do you expect it to be crap?

    I hate to tell you that the analogy you gave doesn't fit. With BowFlex, YOU MIGHT LOOK LIKE THE OILED BODYBUILDERS. You probably won't, but you COULD. With magic, if a trick is crap, then it isn't YOU MIGHT GET GOOD REACTIONS WITH THIS. Cause usually the trick doesn't fool anyone.

    I didn't say because they hyped up a trick they don't respect magic. I said they hyped up CRAPPY tricks because all they care about is MONEY and not magic. What a good magic company does is this. They hype up good/useful/usable tricks because they care about MONEY and the ART OF MAGIC. I know money is needed to run a company, but in magic respect for the art is needed also.

    Once again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I saw one person launch a tirade of profanity against you. I saw you insult four or five well respected members here who were not launching tirades of profanity at you. Your insulting sarcasm was pretty transparent as well.

    Well, at least you admit that you're sarcastic and insulting. That's the first step to recovery.

  15. I wasn't so mad at the TV commercial type prestentation but more that the whole time they were talking about the street magic DVD, but they were showing like the ambitiousn card and crash course. That seems like false advertising. People may say:m "Whoa! did you see how the bent card went to the top. I'm so getting this street magic DVD!" They'll be disappointed.

    I also find it dissapointing that they'll give you a tiger deck, yet they advertise them in a shadow master box. I think this is because the shadow master box is cooler and more appealig. False advertising again!

    I'll stop now because I'm starting to go on a tangent. I'll quit while I'm ahead.

    your friendly neighborhood spider-man,
    Dylan P.
  16. But I wasn't asking you, I was asking him. He has proven himself more than capable of speaking for himself. I was suspicious of an ulterior motive due to the barrage of hatemail I've been recieving in the last month.

    I just change the presentation.

    Exposure only ruins me if I let it.

    I talked to them about it because it's become a hot button issue what magic in media influences the laity to think. Rather than speculating, I went straight to the source and learned that most magicians are just projecting.

    That's wishful thinking at best. I've been involved in the arts my whole life, and I have seen no reason to believe a bunch of spoiled brats performing for their webcams is going to hurt magic any more than YouTube home movies are going to destroy filmmaking.

    And before you complain that filmmaking isn't magic, too bad. There are more parallels in the arts than many of you are willing to admit.

    Well, ring my bell! He saw a trailer. Am I supposed to be impressed?

    I don't go to the theater. I watch it on cable.

    But if I don't watch it at all, I just don't talk about it. I don't have an informed opinion, so why get on a soapbox?

    So because you failed to get reactions with an effect, nobody else can? And people call me close-minded

    That assumes that every performer can use everything. Even I know that's a pipedream.

    What can I say? I don't discriminate.

    I'll send a card.
  17. I realise no one cares about my opinion but why the hell are we still seeing these threads? All it turns into is Steerpike V. Theory11, which while entertaining to watch is just a waste of people's time.

    Honestly, what is the point? You don't need to prove to us about how much you care about the ART of magic - this isn't a coffee morning where we all profess our love for magic and try and convince each other how dedicated we are.

    Now yes, this is "general magic discussion" blady blah, etc etc freedom of speech :rolleyes: so someone will no doubt say something about that. But seriously - it's like pissing in the ocean. About 4 people on an internet forum participating in an argument will not change Ellusionist's advertising campaigns, because they are making shedloads of money.

    Stop complaining, and just bloody practice instead.
  18. And that is exactly why we need a Spam Forum on T11.
  19. Still doesn't matter, I can respond if I like. Also, I wonder why you've been getting a barrage of hate mail. Maybe people hate you because you're insulting? I don't know, maybe. (lol)

    Presentation isn't the "secret" of the trick. Doesn't matter which way you slice it, if they know how the trick is done than it doesn't do anything for them.

    I've been involved in the arts my whole life also. My dad is a professional documentary producer and my uncles are artists. I had friends, that I met through my dad, who work with Steven Speilburg, so I know the paralells.. Film making is an art, just like painting or even magic. BUT, film making isn't a protected art. There are no "secrets" to be found when it comes to film making. I don't think you get what I'm saying.

    Once again, I wonder why all the hate mail.

    Don't go to the theater? And you call yourself a film maker. And I was giving an example, not asking if you go to the theater or not.

    First of all, I didn't get a failed reaction, you're just assuming I did. What I got was a trick that is completely unusable and stupid. Just so you all know, I got "Ultimate Card Through Window". The gimmick you use is in plain site on the other side of the window. If the spectator wants to go get the card what do you think they're going to see? These are the kind of tricks I'm talking about. Sure, magicians have different styles and what works for one won't for the other. BUT, there are some things sold that are completely useless.

    Alright, I admit I used the wrong word. How about PRACTICAL. Something that will actually work. I know not everything works for every performer.

    Then don't cry when those same people come back and insult you.

    Truthfully and this is with no hard feelings against Steerpike, because I've kept a level head during this discussion. I believe it would be best if Steerpike went back to E and no longer had discussions on this forum. If anyone says anything about E, which can be their own opinion, it turns into a long drawn out discussion of which Steerpike is the heart. I kindly ask you to go back to your beloved E Steerpike and have your discussions there. Thank you. Peace!


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