The Morals of "Figuring Out"

Dec 20, 2009
343
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Mumbai, India
I would say that all depends on weather or not the effect is being sold on the open market. Any effect that is sold for profit of course is fair game to be performed. Otherwise it wouldn't be sold. If you buy a trick like say "wow" then of course you also have the permission to perform it.

So with regard to that, if you figure out the effect, and don't require say special props or gimicks, then I say fair game. Although to perform it without purchasing the effect at some point I think is an ethical grey area and wrong. The proper thing to do is to purchase the effect anyway to support the mind that made it.

If the effect ISN'T sold on the open market and it is property of a magician then it would of course be very wrong to perform it without their permission.
I agree!!!
 
Dec 26, 2009
242
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So I have been trying to avoid posting any comments in this thread because I know the supporters of my views are out weighed by the non-supporters. But here we go, get ready to yell at me and call me names.

I was just reading through my copies The Royal Road to Card Magic and Expert Card Technique, and I thought about this thread. Between those two books there are 11 different versions of The Pass. I know there are more than these 11 passes out there in the world of magic, because I myself have made two versions of performing The Pass that aren't in these books.

With those 11+ versions of The Pass being published into books that are all over the world and taught on countless DVDs, just to make sure there isn't any idea stealing, shouldn't there be a disclaimer in every pack of playing cards worldwide telling beginners not to, under any circumstance, "secretly", under the cover of your hands, bring the top of the deck to the bottom or vice-virsa. Reason being is if this beginner in card magic realizes that he can perform The Pass and does it without buying any magic books or DVDs that teach The Pass, wouldn't he be stealing? Or what if this beginner realizes he can pick up two cards as one? Oh the humanity! This will surely be the end of magic if he finds out these secrets without buying anything to teach him the tricks.

There is nothing different about buying these books, that teach beginner moves like the double lift and the overhand shuffle control, and buying a DVD or a 1 on 1 training download. What I mean by there is nothing different is, they both teach moves we need to learn to move in a forward direction.

How many times in history do you think a magician saw another magician perform on stage, saw him make a funny movement with his hands and realized what he might have done to accomplish the ending effect. Then that magician went home, busted out his pack of playing cards, and remembered what he could of how the stage magicians movements looked and found his own way to perform The Pass. Um, that's the same thing that is in question in this thread isn't it?

And what happens if you "invent" a new move or trick and then 2 years or so down the road you see your move or your trick on a trailer for another persons DVD. Do you stop performing this trick or move because someone else has published it?

Just to give an example, I learned a certain color change and as I was learning it I realized that if done wrong the top card flies off toward my right hand. I have figured out this move on my own. Later I found out, after watching Eric Jones' Ishkabibble Sandwich, that this move is called the Top Shot and it was already published by Lennart Green. So does this mean I can not do a move that I found on my own but was also already published? And I don't want any of this "grey area" crap for an answer. I want a yes or no.

Another thing about buying the product from the source to give the creator his credit. How many people on here have bought a magic DVD or magic book or even a specialty deck of "E" or T11 cards off of EBAY? I would hate to tell you but, if you are buying a DVD or book off of EBAY chances are you are paying the person who bought the DVD from the source, not the source itself. Which means you aren't supporting the magician who originally published the book or DVD.

Now to keep going in this direction about buying from people other than the source. Let's talk about borrowing magic from another source. In the beginner theory video that T11 has, Dan and Dave are on the vid talking about how you should go to your local Library and check out all of the magic books they have and learn from those. Um, correct me if I am wrong but those books are free, aren't they? We don't pay to check them out, do we? Wouldn't that be stealing? From what alot of people on this thread say, then YES that would be stealing. But it's not!

OK here is another question, since these books were published by magicians and we are talking about stealing, let's say I check out a magic book from the Library. I get home and read it for a few days and misplace the book. 3 years down the road I find the book and take it back. I have a late fee for 20 bucks we'll say. Does the Library split the late fees 50/50 with the magician? Let's say I never return the book, I didn't pay for it so am I stealing from the Library or the Magician?

Talking about Dan and Dave, I once saw an interview video with Dan and Dave, where they talked about just learning magic and they would record the Blaine specials and watch them over and over again learning all they could from these specials. Again I might be wrong in saying this, but under the terms set by most of the people in this thread wouldn't that mean two of the greatest cardists around are magic stealers? OH MY GOD, I don't know how I will sleep at night knowing this information! Oh by the way, which one of you guys that are anti-self learning are going to tell Dan and Dave they are "magic stealers"?

To add to the argument even more, what is the difference in self-learning from a trailer, possibly coming up with a better to handle trick that accomplishes the same effect in the process, and what happens everyday when a magician re-invents a gimmick to suit his need; i.e., the raven and the gecko.

I think I am done and I hope to hear something back from you guys.

Thanks,
Sam
 
Nov 8, 2009
131
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i can honestly say that i agree with everything you said.

And cant we all Just agree to disagree, and promise not to freak out when the 'other side" acts the way they do?


Its MAGIC! People, if you create a memorable experience in the mind of the spectator, then what else do you want?

A professional magician to be able to buy a new deck of cards because you paid for an effect that you have previously figured out?

Or do you want to give them a memorable experience that will stay with them fro a long time?

i think you are repecting the art of magic in either instance, disagree with me if you want.
 
Dec 26, 2009
242
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I agree with you 100% spade444. I do still buy effects, but if i can figure out a way to accomplish an effect I just saw a trailer for I am going to do it my way. That's the way things have always been done in the history of magic, you can't tell me I'm wrong. Look at my example from all the different versions of The Pass and Double Lifts.

If magicians didn't figure out their own way to accomplish an effect or a move, that belonged to someone else, no one would be doing much of anything other than basic pick a card find a card tricks. That would be awesome wouldn't it!

Again, to add to the argument, Did Jon Bayme and Theory11 get permission from Erdnase to put a 1 on 1 training video, "Classic Color Change", up to download for free? Oh and did I mention, this is a variation of the Erdnase Color Change taught by Jon Bayme.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Took way too long for someone to bring up the topic of public libraries. That throws a wrench into the equation of many arguments. Especially for those who can't wait to tell you how bloody ethical and morally upright they are.
 
Dec 26, 2009
242
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Yea but the only problem with the "morally uptight" argument is everything I've said is 100% true. So they have no argument. BTW did anyone go tell Dan and Dave yet that you guys think they are magic stealers?
 
Dec 26, 2009
242
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I apologize for that. I meant to put upright that's why it had quotes around it. My fingers or to fat to distinguish an r from a t on the keyboard I guess.
 
Dec 26, 2009
242
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*UPDATE*

I just watched a video from a thread titled "David Blaine VS. Kimbo Slice"

Can someone please find out if David Blaine had a seance to talk to Harry Houdini. If Blaine didn't get permission from Houdini to get punched in the stomach he's got some splainin' to do.

David Blaine even says, in the video that is posted, that Harry Houdini used to get punched in the stomach to show his strength and explains that is how Houdini died.

So David Blaine clearly admits to performing the same exact "show of strength" that Houdini used to.

So if a magician dies performing a certain trick or effect or in this case a show of strength, is the said performance free game? How does this work by the rules the "Anti-Self Learners" have made?
 
And it looks like Harry Houdini isn't the only thing that's back from the dead!

The short of it is:

*Don't perform another working magicians private, unpublished, personal effects without their permission.

*If you figure out a trick by watching someone else perform it, and can perform it yourself without the need to buy specific props first, then do so; but know that it's a moral grey area and at some point in time or another you would be a better person to fork out the change to buy the effect proper. Doubly so if you make it a worker for you. Don't openly advertise that you have or do reverse engeneer effects to or around magicians. They like to quibble over the smallest of points, however moot they may be. No sense in walking up to a bees nest wacking it with a stick and then wondering why you got your ass stung.

*Even if you do figure out how something is done, and you do perform it anyway, it's not like you have to worry about the morality police or anything. If that's the worst thing you're going to end up doing in your life, then you'll probably die a good man.

And that's pretty much that.

*UPDATE*

I just watched a video from a thread titled "David Blaine VS. Kimbo Slice"

Can someone please find out if David Blaine had a seance to talk to Harry Houdini. If Blaine didn't get permission from Houdini to get punched in the stomach he's got some splainin' to do.

David Blaine even says, in the video that is posted, that Harry Houdini used to get punched in the stomach to show his strength and explains that is how Houdini died.

So David Blaine clearly admits to performing the same exact "show of strength" that Houdini used to.

So if a magician dies performing a certain trick or effect or in this case a show of strength, is the said performance free game? How does this work by the rules the "Anti-Self Learners" have made?
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
33
*UPDATE*

I just watched a video from a thread titled "David Blaine VS. Kimbo Slice"

Can someone please find out if David Blaine had a seance to talk to Harry Houdini. If Blaine didn't get permission from Houdini to get punched in the stomach he's got some splainin' to do.

David Blaine even says, in the video that is posted, that Harry Houdini used to get punched in the stomach to show his strength and explains that is how Houdini died.

So David Blaine clearly admits to performing the same exact "show of strength" that Houdini used to.

So if a magician dies performing a certain trick or effect or in this case a show of strength, is the said performance free game? How does this work by the rules the "Anti-Self Learners" have made?

Nice post *sarcasm*, unfortunately it can be dispelled quickly with two words,
"Public Domain"

Plus I am pretty sure you can't copyright a stunt. If I wanted to go jump the Grand Canyon on a motor bike, I wouldn't have to run it by Evel Knievel first.

Another thing is Feats of strengths have been done numerous times in sideshow, commonly known as the "Strongmen" acts. Wrestling bears, ripping a deck of playing cards in half, lifting thousand plus pounds of objects, breaking chains by flexing chest muscles, John Holtum even stopped cannon balls fired from a cannon with his own body.

I fail to see how David Blaine is at fault or the "anti-self learners" IF that becomes a coined term I may shoot myself and not catch the bullet in my mouth. Oh Wait I'd have to go see Penn and Teller to do that, and Chung Ling.
 
Nov 8, 2009
131
0
And it looks like Harry Houdini isn't the only thing that's back from the dead!

The short of it is:

*Don't perform another working magicians private, unpublished, personal effects without their permission.

*If you figure out a trick by watching someone else perform it, and can perform it yourself without the need to buy specific props first, then do so; but know that it's a moral grey area and at some point in time or another you would be a better person to fork out the change to buy the effect proper. Doubly so if you make it a worker for you. Don't openly advertise that you have or do reverse engeneer effects to or around magicians. They like to quibble over the smallest of points, however moot they may be. No sense in walking up to a bees nest wacking it with a stick and then wondering why you got your ass stung.

*Even if you do figure out how something is done, and you do perform it anyway, it's not like you have to worry about the morality police or anything. If that's the worst thing you're going to end up doing in your life, then you'll probably die a good man.

And that's pretty much that.

And you pretty much did settle it.

thank you
 
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