Morgician:
I read your post and understand what you are saying. I agree with some and disagree with some. Nonetheless, I appreciate you reasoning and tone.
As for Youtube, I'm not on there. If I ever post something on there, it would be an effect that I developed myself or that I purchased. I think that the purchase of the effect is, in essence, a one time payment for a perpetual license to perform it.
I see your point about Autograph. But does that mean I can market an effect called "Photograph" which is different only in that the spectator and magician draw smiley and frown faces on the faces of the card as long as I credit Justin? My sense is probably not. There is a line between ethical use and copying and I'll admit that I'm not sure of the exact boundaries in that context.
What if I learn something from a video I didn't intend on learning, but it was done so poorly, I just realize the method...do I have to send a cheque to the creator? Am I not allowed to use the method or idea unless I do? It seems like MONEY is they key concern of morality to you, when most effects aren't credited properly in the first place.
For me, the answer is yes. I saw French Kiss and immediately knew the method. But the idea of putting the card in the spectator's mouth is so ingenious that I'm intending on purchasing the Art of Magic (OK, so the interviews sound interesting too).
Yes, I see that I have mentioned money a lot. I'm not sure how else to compensate someone who came up with an idea that I use. To me, crediting them doesn't seem like enough.
I think if someone is putting a video out there, and doesn't edit it well enough to protect the secret - then they themselves have broke the magicians code:
"As a magician I promise never to reveal the secret of any illusion to a non-magician, unless that one swears to uphold the Magician's Oath in turn. I promise never to perform any illusion for any non-magician without first practicing the effect until I can perform it well enough to maintain the illusion of magic."
You keep blaming the people who are the bi-product of this, not the person that does or creates an effect that can be figured out by watching the performance or camera work. Cause and effect pal. The cause is MAGIC MALPRACTICE - the effect is that people will figure it out and not pay for it.
Interesting point. I'm with you on the magic malpractice. I do agree that there are some effects that are relatively simple to figure out that they shouldn't be produced and the trailers shouldn't be posted. However, I think you probably figure effects out because you understand magic and the know enough methods to get you there. A layman probably couldn't figure it out.
The flip side of this is that sellers post preview videos that don't show the product's limitations. That isn't too good either because you end up buying something that is so limited that it is useless to perform.
So, ethically, I think you worry to much about the producer of the effects, and not about how the producer also has an ethical responsibility to NOT put out half baked ideas and have people pay for them...to NOT sell pipe dreams...to sell effects that aren't in violation of so much magic theory they that are USELESS.
I agree that producers have an ethical responsibility not to put out garbage and package it to look like magic. I didn't mean to come across as so one sided. I'm more than willing to bash producers that produce garbage so that someone else doesn't waste their money.
However, if all the effects we are talking about reverse engineering are garbage, there would no issue. No one would want to perform them even if they got them for free. The problem is that they are simpler effects with a clever twist that we like and would perform.
You come across like a capitalist elitist that is trying to protect magic...but you are just enabling. There is a middle road here...and I won't be told that I am a bad person, or unethical because you think I should pay for every single effect I choose to do.
David, I think it is disappointing you are taking this side - as I don't think sharing ideas is wrong. You misquoted me on my last post to try and make it like we agree...I don't think it is wrong to post quotes, or for us to share ideas - not because I can't afford magic, or don't want to pay, but because magic has become too much business, and not enough of a brotherhood.
I apologize for misquoting you. I misunderstood what you were saying. It was not intentional.
I don't have a problem with sharing slights and ideas. I do have a problem with someone buying the latest hot effect and sharing the secret whether it be on youtube or in person.
Even if you take this conversation out of the "effects for sale" situation, I would have a problem with a magician copying or reverse engineering someone's effect that they perform. I know my magic history and know that happened frequently in the past, but that doesn't make it right in my opinion.
When magic becomes more about protecting the secret, and making strong magic stronger - and magicians don't publish every idea under the sun, but actual intelligent design - I will pay out the nose...but until then, I will sample the platter before I pay for the meal. AS IT IS MY PROTECTION...MY ETHICAL PROTECTION AGAINST THOSE THAT WANT ME TO PAY FOR BAD MAGIC!
I generally agree. I have no problem using reverse engineering to decide if I want to pay for an effect. Unfortunately, most of my disappointing purchases come when the only method I figure out for an effect is unworkable and then buy the DVD to see that it uses my unworkable method to disastrous results.
Get a grip young man - the world is not black and white - I know it is wrong to steal food...or medicine...but if my family was sick or starving - EVEN YOU WOULD STEAL for that cause. Surely, magic effects being figured out is not as serious, but the moral is the same. It isn't stealing when the ends justify the means...and the ends is that I don't want to pay mad money for bad magic. I paid $300 for the A of A DVD's, and I know I might take heat for this (after 10 years of performance experience, 4 nights a week, in close up, I think I have the right to judge what is good and bad) but those DVD's were NOT worth that kinda money. The magic in them was NOT what I expected from PH, hell, PH was HARDLY in them. Sure...lots of cool toys for kids in school...but for a worker, that has and loves and PAID for the books....NOT a good investment.
CAN I HAVE MY MONEY BACK - I DON'T USE ONE EFFECT...NOT ONE~!
Is that ethical? Buyer beware right? I agree - and how I am aware of my purchase...you guessed it...I try to see the goods first. If I figure out a freebie in the process...that is life. I have bought some stinkers, so it all works out in the wash..
Wow, its been at least 20 years since someone called me a young man. Unfortunately, I've been around long enough to realize the world is not black and white.
I've also bought my share of stinkers.
Again, I agree it is a two way street and that some producers don't live up to their end of the bargain.
Regardless, it is about figuring it out - I don't go out of my way to do it, but I have done so - and just like music...if I like one song (trick), then I will buy the album - if not, well, I got a freebie that I didn't get ripped for.
THE END.
I see what you are saying, but respectfully disagree.
PS - Did you see the thread with Erdnase being given away for free on Genii's site...haha, CLASSIC punchline to this joke of a thread.
That is an issue of the copyright for the work having expired and the work being in the public domain. I believe several other magic books have a similar status.