The Morals of "Figuring Out"

so who died and deputized everyone to the moraltiy police?

i have never seen a bunch of magicians reduced to a group of quibbling self rightious children faster than the subject of morality and ethics.

I swear... perform one effect without paying for a dvd and your all ready to fry someone at the stake!

honestly... what stake do you have in someone elses work?

are you getting residuals off their sales? no! Let them worry about their own.

this entire subject has been blown way the hell out of porportion and god forbid a magician to not act like a self rightious bastard.

as i said you cant police this kind of thing so then to each to decide theor own path.
thats why i dropped out of this convo since what page 1 or 2???
 
wait.. so what about jam sessions david? so you mean to say its wrong for magicians to get together and hold jam sessions together? we are jamming about material that possibly wasnt paid for by all involved.

what if i go to a friends house and watch his "and then some" video (for example) and learn a new trick from it. Am I now stealing since I learned something from my friends video?

please advise
you will be tar'd and feathered....lol....smite you....hahaha....
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
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Morgician:

I read your post and understand what you are saying. I agree with some and disagree with some. Nonetheless, I appreciate you reasoning and tone.

As for Youtube, I'm not on there. If I ever post something on there, it would be an effect that I developed myself or that I purchased. I think that the purchase of the effect is, in essence, a one time payment for a perpetual license to perform it.

I see your point about Autograph. But does that mean I can market an effect called "Photograph" which is different only in that the spectator and magician draw smiley and frown faces on the faces of the card as long as I credit Justin? My sense is probably not. There is a line between ethical use and copying and I'll admit that I'm not sure of the exact boundaries in that context.

What if I learn something from a video I didn't intend on learning, but it was done so poorly, I just realize the method...do I have to send a cheque to the creator? Am I not allowed to use the method or idea unless I do? It seems like MONEY is they key concern of morality to you, when most effects aren't credited properly in the first place.

For me, the answer is yes. I saw French Kiss and immediately knew the method. But the idea of putting the card in the spectator's mouth is so ingenious that I'm intending on purchasing the Art of Magic (OK, so the interviews sound interesting too).

Yes, I see that I have mentioned money a lot. I'm not sure how else to compensate someone who came up with an idea that I use. To me, crediting them doesn't seem like enough.

I think if someone is putting a video out there, and doesn't edit it well enough to protect the secret - then they themselves have broke the magicians code:

"As a magician I promise never to reveal the secret of any illusion to a non-magician, unless that one swears to uphold the Magician's Oath in turn. I promise never to perform any illusion for any non-magician without first practicing the effect until I can perform it well enough to maintain the illusion of magic."

You keep blaming the people who are the bi-product of this, not the person that does or creates an effect that can be figured out by watching the performance or camera work. Cause and effect pal. The cause is MAGIC MALPRACTICE - the effect is that people will figure it out and not pay for it.

Interesting point. I'm with you on the magic malpractice. I do agree that there are some effects that are relatively simple to figure out that they shouldn't be produced and the trailers shouldn't be posted. However, I think you probably figure effects out because you understand magic and the know enough methods to get you there. A layman probably couldn't figure it out.

The flip side of this is that sellers post preview videos that don't show the product's limitations. That isn't too good either because you end up buying something that is so limited that it is useless to perform.

So, ethically, I think you worry to much about the producer of the effects, and not about how the producer also has an ethical responsibility to NOT put out half baked ideas and have people pay for them...to NOT sell pipe dreams...to sell effects that aren't in violation of so much magic theory they that are USELESS.

I agree that producers have an ethical responsibility not to put out garbage and package it to look like magic. I didn't mean to come across as so one sided. I'm more than willing to bash producers that produce garbage so that someone else doesn't waste their money.

However, if all the effects we are talking about reverse engineering are garbage, there would no issue. No one would want to perform them even if they got them for free. The problem is that they are simpler effects with a clever twist that we like and would perform.

You come across like a capitalist elitist that is trying to protect magic...but you are just enabling. There is a middle road here...and I won't be told that I am a bad person, or unethical because you think I should pay for every single effect I choose to do.

David, I think it is disappointing you are taking this side - as I don't think sharing ideas is wrong. You misquoted me on my last post to try and make it like we agree...I don't think it is wrong to post quotes, or for us to share ideas - not because I can't afford magic, or don't want to pay, but because magic has become too much business, and not enough of a brotherhood.

I apologize for misquoting you. I misunderstood what you were saying. It was not intentional.

I don't have a problem with sharing slights and ideas. I do have a problem with someone buying the latest hot effect and sharing the secret whether it be on youtube or in person.

Even if you take this conversation out of the "effects for sale" situation, I would have a problem with a magician copying or reverse engineering someone's effect that they perform. I know my magic history and know that happened frequently in the past, but that doesn't make it right in my opinion.

When magic becomes more about protecting the secret, and making strong magic stronger - and magicians don't publish every idea under the sun, but actual intelligent design - I will pay out the nose...but until then, I will sample the platter before I pay for the meal. AS IT IS MY PROTECTION...MY ETHICAL PROTECTION AGAINST THOSE THAT WANT ME TO PAY FOR BAD MAGIC!

I generally agree. I have no problem using reverse engineering to decide if I want to pay for an effect. Unfortunately, most of my disappointing purchases come when the only method I figure out for an effect is unworkable and then buy the DVD to see that it uses my unworkable method to disastrous results.

Get a grip young man - the world is not black and white - I know it is wrong to steal food...or medicine...but if my family was sick or starving - EVEN YOU WOULD STEAL for that cause. Surely, magic effects being figured out is not as serious, but the moral is the same. It isn't stealing when the ends justify the means...and the ends is that I don't want to pay mad money for bad magic. I paid $300 for the A of A DVD's, and I know I might take heat for this (after 10 years of performance experience, 4 nights a week, in close up, I think I have the right to judge what is good and bad) but those DVD's were NOT worth that kinda money. The magic in them was NOT what I expected from PH, hell, PH was HARDLY in them. Sure...lots of cool toys for kids in school...but for a worker, that has and loves and PAID for the books....NOT a good investment.

CAN I HAVE MY MONEY BACK - I DON'T USE ONE EFFECT...NOT ONE~!

Is that ethical? Buyer beware right? I agree - and how I am aware of my purchase...you guessed it...I try to see the goods first. If I figure out a freebie in the process...that is life. I have bought some stinkers, so it all works out in the wash..
Wow, its been at least 20 years since someone called me a young man. Unfortunately, I've been around long enough to realize the world is not black and white.

I've also bought my share of stinkers.

Again, I agree it is a two way street and that some producers don't live up to their end of the bargain.

Regardless, it is about figuring it out - I don't go out of my way to do it, but I have done so - and just like music...if I like one song (trick), then I will buy the album - if not, well, I got a freebie that I didn't get ripped for.

THE END.


I see what you are saying, but respectfully disagree.

PS - Did you see the thread with Erdnase being given away for free on Genii's site...haha, CLASSIC punchline to this joke of a thread.


That is an issue of the copyright for the work having expired and the work being in the public domain. I believe several other magic books have a similar status.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
Then why are we still debating this? haha

Beating a dead horse is still in style?

I've had enough too. Feel free to reply to my last post, but I have better and more interesting things to do than continue the debate and/or answer every hypothetical question about ethics.

There is enough information out there on both sides for everyone to decide what is right for themselves.
 
Mar 29, 2008
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3
Hey David,

I understand where you are coming from - I believe we are arguing for the same team, just difference approaches - and hence the politics of magic exist in ethical approaches.

I understand why you make the stance you do, my morals are a bit softer, for a lack of terms right now. However, I believe my approach is fair to both sides, artists and purchasers, and do my best to make sure that artists are rewarded financially - as I constantly argue that if it weren't for them, I wouldn't get to do magic.

Oddly, I wanted to start a ribbon campaign against exposure for many of the reasons you sited and more...Lee Asher and I spoke in person about this. He made a good argument about how exposure is not that bad for magic, and that it allows more to be exposed to the art form. That it is "old hack" to be an elistist in methods being secretive, and that more exposure means more magicians...(and Lee did not state the next part) but more exposure means those that create and make more money with a larger customer base.

Now, I don't agree with all this - but before I talked to Lee, I was more on your side. Now, I think we need to concern ourselves with managing the middle road...rather than trying to force people to back track to the "way it used to be" (if it really ever way).

Like I said in my first post - if we give back to those whose work we use, not just figure out, then good magic gets rewarded, and bad magic doesn't make $ - so we condition the artists releasing the goods to only release good material.

I would rather buy a music album with 10 good songs on it, then pay less for one with 20 bad songs on it.

When it comes to me figuring out a method...

I hope to release my own material soon - and nothing is so ground breaking that an informed magician will not be able to figure it out. I am certain that the effects are strong enough workers that people will use them...some by seeing a demo done by some young guy on Youtube...however, few get rich off selling magic. I don't hope to. I hope that some young magicians likes my magic, but more importantly, that he likes me enough to want to read my words.

If those that see the demo can figure it out, and use it...but never give me a dime, as long as they do the work justice, and mention my name when another magician asks...that will make me happy.

Lastly, it seems like time runs out on ownership of even the best work (Erdnase) and this was my point - we live in a time where information can be used by the speed of click.

I know a magician that considers himself talented, that has printed MANY a PDF of published books he has downloaded from the internet. Instead of contributing back into the art to make sure that those publishing can continue to make books, as they are not cheap - and few truly profit from books. It is a labour of love. What makes me feel better - anyone that cuts corners like this all the time, cuts those corners in their magic too - and as much as they think it doesn't...it reflects their character, as well as their abilities in magic.

I agree, there is ample information to make a decision - and I hope people do what is right - but it starts with creating guidelines that are realistic. For example, it is against the law to drink and drive...not completely though, as the right thing would be not to do it at all - to avoid serious accidents by drunk drivers - however, we created limits. These limits allow for control, but not so much control that people rebel or the courts are fool of people that had a glass of wine during thanksgiving dinner. It is these limits that are not defined easy in magic as black and white - and it was my hopes we could find a middle ground so that many that read these forums could understand what the acceptable practice is without infringing on their own freedoms to make choice...even if a poor one from time to time.

Cheers David.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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I've had enough too. Feel free to reply to my last post, but I have better and more interesting things to do than continue the debate and/or answer every hypothetical question about ethics.

There is enough information out there on both sides for everyone to decide what is right for themselves.


What are you just going to back out just like that, you spent almost five pages to push your point only to submit to a rationalization that you have better things to do? Whatever do what you like it was an entertaining thread to say the least.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
Hey David,

I understand where you are coming from - I believe we are arguing for the same team, just difference approaches - and hence the politics of magic exist in ethical approaches.

I understand why you make the stance you do, my morals are a bit softer, for a lack of terms right now. However, I believe my approach is fair to both sides, artists and purchasers, and do my best to make sure that artists are rewarded financially - as I constantly argue that if it weren't for them, I wouldn't get to do magic.

I'm not sure saying you have "softer" morals is the right term. I think you are taking a practical approach and appreciate the value in that.

I think we just draw the ethical line in a slightly different place. My line is drawn that if I perform an effect, I'll buy it. Your line attempts to balance a number of considerations but still reflects your respect for magic and creators.

What are you just going to back out just like that, you spent almost five pages to push your point only to submit to a rationalization that you have better things to do? Whatever do what you like it was an entertaining thread to say the least.

Actually, I think you were the one who said I kept repeating the same points over and over again.
 
Sep 17, 2007
84
1
Interesting topic.

I create and release magic commercially. Here are a few of my thoughts from that point of view:

I know there will always be people who watch a demo, figure out the trick and start performing it right away without buying it. However, most of these people are not professionals and will probably only do it for their parents and maybe a friend or two so it doesn't really bother all that much. Not much I could do about it anyway.

I post demos so people know what they are buying. The only demo that I didn't perform the entire effect of is my pen through bill, Driven. Pen through bill is a very popular plot and I knew more people would rip it off than the average card trick.

Most magicians can work out most tricks from watching a demo over and over again. If you think a trick isn't worth performing because YOU can figure it out from watching a demo, then you are thinking way too much like a magician. Even simple tricks fool lay people. Don't fall into that trap.

I would hope that most people would respect my creations and purchase them either from me or their favorite dealer. It is the right thing to do. Especially if it is something you plan on performing quite a bit. If you are a professional, it is DEFINITELY the right thing to do. Essentially, you are paying for performance rights when you purchase an effect.

Also, you a missing out on subtleties if you don't have the original instructions and this could mean the difference between a really good or a really bad performance. Just because you can figure something out from watching a demo doesn't mean you know all the ins and outs of the effect... A lot of people who have ripped off my effect "18" on YouTube get it TOTALLY wrong. They think they know the method but they don't.

Which brings me to the last point which is, I don't mind if someone buys my effect and puts up a performance on YouTube. Magic is meant to be shared. I think it's great and I'm flattered by it. But I cannot stand exposure on YouTube. No one has the right to expose the effect in public except the creator of the effect unless the creator gave permission to someone else to expose it.

I've also noticed a lot of discussion on here about how all creators do is re-hash old effects so it's all just public domain, etc... Nice try but just because someone bases an idea of an effect on an old principle or old move does not mean that the effect as a whole has been done before. Moves and principles are like notes in music. You can combine them to create something new. Sometimes a young magician will see a simple trick and think, "Well, I could have done that..." Yes, but you didn't. So respect the person who did.

These are just some (rambling) thoughts from someone who actually puts stuff out there. Just respect the artists whom you like. Support them. If you like their tricks, buy them. They work hard. Creating good magic ain't easy. It's time consuming and challenging.
 

wZEnigma

Elite Member
Jun 17, 2009
1,511
153
NE Ohio.
ianchandlerwriting.com
Very insightful post Cameron. It was nice to get a biased perspective from someone who is into magic commercially, for a living. That's all true. But could you elaborate on people who torrent your effects or somehow learn the correct method and then expose it? Just curious. You made very good points and I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

Ian
 
Sep 17, 2007
84
1
Well, I'm totally against it, obviously. Look, once you buy an effect, do with it what you will. Change the patter or the routine. Perform it live on the internet, I'm all for it. Just don't expose it.

I am totally against exposure of any kind. I don't like exposure on YouTube or anywhere else for that matter. Although I don't have time to go after everyone, I do email people on YouTube and ask them to take down videos exposing my effects. Most of the time they do. Sometimes they don't.

It bothers me that people treat magic like trading cards. "I'll trade you Sinful for Fraud!" I see this all the time on YouTube. Although I have a feeling people who do this are not really magicians. They just like knowing how stuff is done. But they are usually very young and only know magic from the Internet. They've probably never met another magician or even seen a magician live.

I made a post on another forum (and I might have even posted it here) that I think young guys should get out and go to more magic conventions and magic meetings. You learn A LOT more actually interacting with other magicians than you can possibly learn on Internet forums. The Internet is too abstract. Much better to experience things live.
 

wZEnigma

Elite Member
Jun 17, 2009
1,511
153
NE Ohio.
ianchandlerwriting.com
I think if you don't have a respect for magic, don't do it. You wouldn't claim to be a great actor and then laugh your way through a new billion-dollar movie, so why be so indifferent about magic, like it's free domain?

I think the magic world needs to be more underground. Even Theory 11, once shrouded in mystery and confusion, is now just another magic store. And it's good - but magic needs a revolution.

Ian
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
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Grand prairie TX
I think if you don't have a respect for magic, don't do it. You wouldn't claim to be a great actor and then laugh your way through a new billion-dollar movie, so why be so indifferent about magic, like it's free domain?

I think the magic world needs to be more underground. Even Theory 11, once shrouded in mystery and confusion, is now just another magic store. And it's good - but magic needs a revolution.

Ian

Its not gonna happen.
Despite all ones blood and thunder,it wont.
Hell,its already very low in the public eye. The only reason many people see it as "OMG EXPOSURE" is because the magic internet world is all they see or most of what they know/spend their time on. Looking at it from the outside,the magic world is not as exposed as people feel it to be.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
A revolution is always taking place in the minds of the greatest magicians - they just don't waste time talking about it. You see this in the masters of the current day, guys like Carney, Ascanio, Tamariz, Ortiz, Lorayne, Mead, Jay, Cassidy. You saw it in the old masters like Vernon, Marlo, Kaps, Malini. You see it in the (relatively) newer faces of guys like Cavalli, Brook, Wind, Bresler. To use just a handful of names of guys I like to watch. There are dozens upon dozens of names.

The revolution is always happening - it is unknown only to those who do not take part. This is why masters will always be masters, and the ignorant, ignorant.

Cameron - I would love to read the post to which you allude, if you'd be so kind. I don't recall seeing it here, but I may be mistaken.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
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Grand prairie TX
A revolution is always taking place in the minds of the greatest magicians - they just don't waste time talking about it. You see this in the masters of the current day, guys like Carney, Ascanio, Tamariz, Ortiz, Lorayne, Mead, Jay, Cassidy. You saw it in the old masters like Vernon, Marlo, Kaps, Malini. You see it in the (relatively) newer faces of guys like Cavalli, Brook, Wind, Bresler. To use just a handful of names of guys I like to watch. There are dozens upon dozens of names.

The revolution is always happening - it is unknown only to those who do not take part. This is why masters will always be masters, and the ignorant, ignorant.

Cameron - I would love to read the post to which you allude, if you'd be so kind. I don't recall seeing it here, but I may be mistaken.

But a revolution on further secluding the magic world from the general public?
Cause thats what the last guy was talking about.
Thats not even something id call a revolution. Thats a retreat.
And to get back to the base post of "figuring it out". That cannot be stopped.
How in the world do you think you can stop that?
The people who are naturally inclined towards doing it arent on these forums and clearly dont have the passion or respect for magic products and their creators.
So,thats what the OP was originally talking about. Figuring it out.
Ca you stop it or do anything about it? The answer is no.
I compare it to figuring out the plot for a movie from the trailer.
(because thats the only way you can figure a trick out. Hearing about an effect and making your own method for doing it is completely different)
If a movie trailer makes it easy for me to figure out,for the most part, the plot of the film then that would be called figuring it out. Me spoiling it for people would be the immorality part then. How many times do you think thatll happen?
How many times do you actually hear/read about someone figuring out a trick?
I seldom do. And how does it directly hurt the creator? There was no torrent or actual stealing of the trick. they just had a sh!tty preview video for their trick and its just one less sale they wont get.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
I think we're making two entirely different points here visualartist. I'm simply pointing that a revolution already exists, not necessarily the one Ian is hinting at, but simply that it already exists.

The truth is, if the magic world were more "underground" (whatever that means), then by definition, it would make magic less underground. More of the magic world being underground means more people participating in the underground movement, or even a bigger part of magic taking part "underground", which by definition, makes it less underground.

The underground already exists. Hence why it's underground.
 
Dec 25, 2008
201
0
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Malaysia
Even if i figured out the trick, i still wont perform it until i get my hands on the dvd.

The teaching in the dvd might helps alot instead of using the "figured" handling, u might learn it in a hard way instead of the easy way.

So, i would still buy the dvd if im so desperate on performing the trick.....
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
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A revolution is always taking place in the minds of the greatest magicians - they just don't waste time talking about it. You see this in the masters of the current day, guys like Carney, Ascanio, Tamariz, Ortiz, Lorayne, Mead, Jay, Cassidy. You saw it in the old masters like Vernon, Marlo, Kaps, Malini. You see it in the (relatively) newer faces of guys like Cavalli, Brook, Wind, Bresler. To use just a handful of names of guys I like to watch. There are dozens upon dozens of names.

The revolution is always happening - it is unknown only to those who do not take part. This is why masters will always be masters, and the ignorant, ignorant.

Cameron - I would love to read the post to which you allude, if you'd be so kind. I don't recall seeing it here, but I may be mistaken.


Didn't you post a thread about this?
 
Sep 17, 2007
84
1
BTW, I should have prefaced what I said by saying this: I don't believe Internet exposure is the end of magic as we know it. As others have stated, you have to have an interest in this stuff to go seek it out. I think the majority of lay people don't care enough to even attempt to look up a trick.

During the time when I quit magic, I never even met another magician. And we're talking years. Magicians are not as common as we think they are and most lay people are too busy with other stuff to worry about magic secrets.

However, within our community, I don't believe we should be trading secrets like baseball cards. This is not just because I create and release magic. Even before I got into selling my own stuff, I would always buy at item that I thought I could use. Even if I did figure it out from the demo. It's a respect and ethical issue.
 
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