This Bothered Me Greatly

[Michael Kras]

Today, a few instances occured that further enforces the fact that magic is on its way downhill.

First off, I was performing an Invisible Coins routine for a single person in the halls. Now although this may sound whiny, it still bothers me as I can still remember days when not too many laypeople would use the following term.

I executed a coin vanish, to my knowledge it looked fine visually, and the person simply said "So what? I'm betting you just PALMED it."... I cannot remember any time prior to today that ANY layperson has made reference to palming. If someone did indeed catch me out on it, they would say "You're just hiding it in your hand.".. Well, except for one week ago where a girl in my class made reference to palming, forcing, AND controlling. What is going on here?????

It gets worse. I did a few card effects in the halls for a person who was interested and naturally wanted to see a few things. I showed him an Ernest Earick effect, Chris Kenner's Twister, and Dai Vernon's Oil and Water. Just as I was finishing the Oil and Water, the person said the following.

"Wow, that's great! So, you use a lot of your free time to scower Youtube for magic trick tutorials, right?"

I don't know what bothers me more... the fact that he thinks I look around Youtube to learn what I do, or the fact that he is aware of a great mass of Youtube magic tutorials.

Anybody else have situations like this? Any thoughts on the subject?

 

[Masta Ace]

Thats quite a depressing story, I don't think magic is on its way downhill. However, I wish youtube was never invented.....I don't think the pro's of youtube outweight the con's. Exposure being the only real con...but a horrible one at that. To me.....Magic>Youtube

 

[Deleted member 2755]

I have many things I want to say on this subject, but I can't right now because I have some work to do. I'll post tomorrow. However, I will say that story is more than disturbing.

-Doug

 

[jonraiker]

Before everyone jumps to conclusions and immediately assumes YouTube as the culprit behind this sudden knowledge about palming, forcing, and the like - I thought I'd chime in:

Do note that there are ex-magicians out there who have simply lost interest in the art over time. Now, there obviously was some sort of reason they lost interest. Maybe they were only into it for the satisfaction of knowing how everything worked - who knows. However, their knowledge regarding technique and method doesn't just vanish into thin air (pun fully intended) when they decide they want to leave magic to pursue other things.

I've encountered only a couple of spectators who knew of things like forcing, controlling the selection, and even DLs. Did this deter from the performance? Absolutely not. Regardless of how cliche it sounds, it's all about audience management.

In both instances the spectators approached me afterward and filled me in on the fact that they had - in fact - studied magic for a time in the past. No, not from scouring YouTube for tutorials. Rather, they had previously been magicians (in some form) themselves.

There will be hecklers from time-to-time. It just feels worse when they used to be in your shoes.

 

[urban entropy]

Not to outright go against the grain here, but, I just don't see how it is an issue.

By saying "the halls" I assume you are meaning school. If not, please correct me. If so, then that is your problem right there. Simply put, a lot of kids are online for most of their spare time. Also, the fact that a younger generation is picking up magic and performing in their local schools only beckons other kids to seek out methods. Where else would you look but online?

I once had a 5 year old reach out and look up my sleeve, right after sleeving a coin. I executed the move beautifully as every adult at the table was floored. However, the child came up with the simplest solution. Go figure. I have since learned how to deal with that.

In this case I think the solution comes in the audience. Get out and perform for some adults. Go to a retirement home. A hospital. The local mall. Anywhere where you find people who have more on their agenda then to give you a hard time. I think you will find the performances and your audience much more satisfying.

Don't let things like this get to you. All it does is bring you down; and I suspect you have higher places to soar with your talent and attitude.

Magic is only on the decline if you let it be.

urban

 

[James Wise Magic]

Oh YESSS!!!

Man! I gotta tell you, I find a lot people people, after I do an effect, they just say, "That's awesome, I'm gonna find out how to do it on youtube" and I'm just like, "uhhhhhgggg"

It makes me feel dirty. Like everything is on youtube and everything us magicians learn is from there! I love youtube; it's fun, but it kills at the same time.

 

[James Wise Magic]

Not to outright go against the grain here, but, I just don't see how it is an issue.

By saying "the halls" I assume you are meaning school. If not, please correct me. If so, then that is your problem right there. Simply put, a lot of kids are online for most of their spare time. Also, the fact that a younger generation is picking up magic and performing in their local schools only beckons other kids to seek out methods. Where else would you look but online?

I once had a 5 year old reach out and look up my sleeve, right after sleeving a coin. I executed the move beautifully as every adult at the table was floored. However, the child came up with the simplest solution. Go figure. I have since learned how to deal with that.

In this case I think the solution comes in the audience. Get out and perform for some adults. Go to a retirement home. A hospital. The local mall. Anywhere where you find people who have more on their agenda then to give you a hard time. I think you will find the performances and your audience much more satisfying.

Don't let things like this get to you. All it does is bring you down; and I suspect you have higher places to soar with your talent and attitude.

Magic is only on the decline if you let it be.

urban

yeah man. I totally know what you mean! For an example: I perform the invisable palm alot. It's become one of my signature pieces cuz everyone freaks out. Well the thing is, is that more.... no really immature teens, but more "skeptics" at my school can ruin it.

So I usually just perform for those whom want to be entertained or adults and of course the skeptics but less on those.

And those that know how to do this trick, probably know what the worst thing a spectator can do to ruin this effect.

 

[TheKingOfCards]

One piece of advice. I take it very personally when some random no-nothing spectator with no edge over me, comes up to me and says, " Hey, I saw that on youtube," or "Hey, you watch youtube tutorials right?" That means you've done something to either push him/her towards remembering something he/she saw on youtube or have not performed someting original/out-of-the-boxish enough to get a complete and genuine reaction. I strive to keep my magic arsenal OLD, and much of my repertoire includes OLD stuff from Vernon and Marlo (both geniuses, if I may say). This so called "OLD" stuff is actually the NEW in magic, or it should be. If you haven't noticed, i'd say the VAST majority of exposed stuff on youtube is modern or something you could DL off a site like DD, T11, Ellusionist, or even Penguin. Thus, performing anything mainstream would lead to a higher chance of a spectator behaving in the ways you described. It happens more often than not...

Anyways, I am a junior in high school and know your situation too well. In fact, mine is worse. My high school is ranked something like top 5 in the nation in terms of academics, and basically everyone here sees through my stuff. I practice for weeks before performing, and yet people will still convince themselves they have reached the correct conclusion. These highly logical "creatures" that roam my halls at school are a bigger problem, and they also act like the kids you described. Anyhow, with about 3x more practice and a change in attitude and repertoire, I was able to overcome this dilema in my life and get on with my magic. If anything, perform for people you don't know. You'd be surprised how much your friends take you for granted because they know you personally =) No offense intended, but it's the sad truth. Friendship isn't a best to have in magic, especially with a spectator. Don't want to give anything into the cause to expose you and your magic.

 

[tokyoUW]

In addition, and in no way to demean your performances at all, since I did not whitness them. I do find however, it is a lot easier for lets say, a youtube browsing layman, to spot a trick, if it is done in the exact same way as presented on youtube. I was out and about in downtown tokyo the other day and while at a pool hall, spotted a magician doing some tricks for a friend. Well heck, another magician, and a japanese local at that, so I thought I would take a look.

Well, I walked right up as he was doing the Biddel Trick. Textbook patter, textbook handling (in a perefect direct Japanese translation of course). His handling wasnt bad, but he did EVERYTHING soooo textbook that the first thing I thought was, "if anyone has seen this exposed on the web, they would have recognized it right away." After his performance I started talking to him, and he had actually heard of me from the pool hall managers (I go there a lot so they told him there was a regular foreigner magician that came in). After chatting for a few I told him I would show some people a trick. We went up to the same table of people he did his performance to and I did my version of the Biddel trick. My patter was different, my selection process was different, the way I chose and showed the 5 cards to the spectators was different, and my production was completely different. In fact, they were presented so differently that both the spectators and other magician didnt recognize that what I just did was the same was the previous trick the other magician did.

It is true that exposure is bad, but it only effects you if you let it. Be flawless in your technique, draw all attention away from the fact that there could even be a "trick" going on. Control the crowd with your own patter, and decide which patter to use depending on the audience, and I guarantee that the number of times someone calls you on a move like a DL, control, palm, etc... will decrease significantly.

Remember that a good magic peformance, when the technique is practiced enough, is about 30% technique, 70% peformance ability (= crowd control, misdirection, patter, timing, etc...)

 

[Tiro]

This problem isn't only centralized to You Tube it is also ingrained in how some magicians will perform their effects. Now I'm no expert on this topic, I've only been practicing for about 8 months; however, because of my situation I do get my fair chances at seeing a lot people try their hand at slight of hand magic.

A few days ago a guy was in my class trying to do a card trick, the trick was a sandwich effect from d+M Mystique. It was fairly obvious he didn't have any crowd management skills seeing as how he had put himself into a position where angles on his lift were clearly visible. He did the trick and a young woman caught him doing the move, at this point he became really nervous and proceeded to explain in vivid detail in how the effect was suppose to look, and when I say vivid I mean step by step instructions with his hands showing every slight.

The previous situation isn't really an isolated incident either, I see it happening more and more around here. Bars are the worst, especially if it's a guy performing for a group of girls, they think that they can save face by explaining how the trick should have ended up. It is a disturbing trend; however, on the upside it forces me to make 100% certain that when I perform my technique and showman ship is rock solid so I don't end up looking like a douche bag.

Tiro - UWO

 

[TheKingOfCards]

TokyoOW... that was an awesome response. It's one of the flat out best i've seen in a while. Really sums up some great ideas to solve our problems! =)

 

[tokyoUW]

Thank you =), name is tokyoUW though, with a "U" teehee. UW stands for University of Washington btw... go HUSKIES!

This is something that I have been wanting to write for a long time, and I am sure others have as well. Had some free time between classes, so thought I would post it... but now... alas... gotta go teach class again >_<

 

[TheKingOfCards]

Crap! Sorry I type horribly on this stupid laptop! I try not to look... who am I kidding haha?

I have a friend going to UW too. Freshmen guy named Alex Lee. What a beast he is. Loves my magic and has some of the best reactions in the world LOL. Find him and perform haha

 

[blackghost1125]

Thats quite a depressing story, I don't think magic is on its way downhill. However, I wish youtube was never invented.....I don't think the pro's of youtube outweight the con's. Exposure being the only real con...but a horrible one at that. To me.....Magic>Youtube

I totally agree on what u said and I also wish youtube was never invented!

 

[copperfield 14]

I am glad youtube is invented. It has good videos to watch. Things like these happen. Hecklers, ex magicians, all you have to do is learn different tricks or maybe make it seem like your trick was real magic. Like make up some patter or something.

 

[praetoritevong]

I don't think, as several people have mentioned or hinted, that YouTube is the problem.

Now, recently, several people were questioning the usefulness of originality. Well, let your spectator try and find effects like "I Know Kung Fu" or "Ouroboros" on YouTube. Not gonna happen. Just wanted to mention that as an aside.

Michael's second story surely is more alarming, though. Still, it speaks volumes for perception. Stuff like Earnest Earick isn't the type of stuff laymen will have seen tutorials for. Still, something has to be said of your presentation of magic - how you treat magic. Do you treat it as an art?

Put it this way. Art Galleries often have sessions with a featured artist in which questions can be asked. Do you ever hear "So I guess you must spend all your time learning to paint from art magazines huh?" No, of course not. Why? Paintings are appreciated as works of art and they garner instant respect for the painter. Compare to someone who draws a bad pencil-outlined anime picture. I personally could easily picture someone asking "So did you learn that in an anime book or something?"

People should not think your magic is something of a throwaway, half-assed hobby you have because you're bored and don't have friends. People should appreciate your magic for what it is, and what magic is, is beautiful. It should be the type of performance to garner amazement because your handling should be such that they respect it, that they can view magic as how it should be.

Just a thought - and this is not a jab merely at Michael, but general comments as well.

 

[bd]

There have been several good responses on this thread; in my opinion the "best" so far has been posted by tokyoUW. He has some great pointers and insight.

The real key to getting the great reactions everyone so desires is performance, patter, and presentation-- technical performance (the actual sleights) often being the least important of the three key elements.

Of course, there are those that argue that if a trick's sleights are executed flawlessly, then the magician has "performed" a beautiful trick- is this so? I don't believe that statement to be true. The performance and patter is what makes each trick unique to the performer; perform each trick uniquely and you probably won't run into people who recognize your tricks.

Anyhow, I've got to go to bed, I'd be happy to discuss this issue further tomorrow. Good night

Cheers,
ben

 

[fridoliina]

I dont wish to insult anyone but the simple truth is if this things does happend, your not good enough. You have to think about, what is wrong with my performance and with my magic, not what is wrong with youtube.

The secret is nothing, i have seen some "masters" at work fooling me and everyone around with methods everyone knew about but no one could figure it out. Because they were so entertaining and so smooth with their handelings. Its all about presentation and to make your spectators have a great time.

There is a big difference bettwen showing someone a cool trick, and to show people magic and entertainment.

If your showing someone a card trick, no matter how good it is, it can be the greatest card trick in the world without any good presentation and performance, you are not showing them magic and entertainment, you are showing them a puzzle which your not going to tell them how it works and by peoples nature they will want to figure it out. If your showing them magic with a good entertaining presentation, you are showing them magic and entertainment to make them happy and feel good, thats the goal of magic not to fool people, and they will not care about the method.

A good example of a guy who was a master at routining and presentation was Tommy Wonder even if he uses the most basic sleights you will still get fooled because hes presentation is so great.

Watch his coins across here. It uses the most basic coin sleights, just read the first pages of bobos modern coin magic and you got it but you will still get fooled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjEphrI43s

 

[LuseifHo]

I have also been thinking about this subject for quite a while. The whole issue with youtube and laymen knowing some magic.
Let me just spread my theory

I think that magic is 90% presentation and only 10% trick
if you are able to present a trick flawlessly with perfect audience management, engagement, and great patter, even if it is just a self working trick with a key card, the audience will enjoy it, thus not wanting to spoil it.

You can do the most simplest of tricks yet get the biggest of reactions. As long as you make yourself stand out and present it to the best of your abilities, the audience will follow along no matter who they are.

Now the youtube thing. Yeah there are people who reveal tricks and what not on youtube and some laymen may find them. They may become hecklers and try to ruin your trick. That is where (once again) presentation comes in. If you have good enough misdirection and audience management, even if they know how you did it, they wont catch it.

Another way i prevent this is I do routines which I am sure they wont know. These are also routines people dont bother to reveal. For example, i do routines of David Stones, where although they are amazing, people wont recognize them. I also change the context of all my tricks so people wont be able to say "Ooh... that one..."

All this leads to the problem of hecklers, who are just annoying arent they? When they heckle. I do 1 of 2 things. 1. give them the deck or whatever im using and let them do it, which they cant. 2. stare at them blankly until they walk off or something. (works every time haha)

What i keep in mind everytime is to entertain to my greatest abilities. If people enjoy it, they wont not want to right?
If all else fails, i take out the gimmicks and work my magic XD

 

[Holyshnikes]

My students use to think that I would spend all day and night looking on youtube for videos. I soon found out which tricks were popular on youtube and that were easily searchable and tried to do them less and less. However, there is a few things that could be done here. Make sure you don't name the trick (that way they cant really look it up). And another is to make the trick your own and not a copy of the original artist. I have found that on youtube the videos are almost the same as the real instructions (even the patter). If you make it your own maybe even by adding a step or leaving out a step or changing the way you phrase your words it can help out with that.

As far as them knowing the terms of magic, then I think it is obvious. This person can't be considered a "layman". Not to say that they know a lot about magic, but they know enough to follow some of what you are doing. Now the trick is to find something not on youtube that will blow their minds.