We're All Liars

[Steerpike]

At last night's lecture, an interesting topic was brought up. It began with Ben Seidman talking about the motivation behind every move. It had to make sense and it had to offer multiple layers of deception.

He presented a coins across routine that was impromptu, virtually angle-proof, and clean from start to finish. It stands as one of the most impressive and magical coin routines I've ever seen second only to Garrett Thomas's award-winning routine. The effect proper was an invention of Darryl's, but Ben's handling of it is what made it actually magical instead of just a trick.

The idea went even further when Luke Jermay came front and center for his lecture and in between the effects he taught he went on lengthy tirades about magic and mentalism laden with profanity and his own confessions of being, and I quote, "very militant" about his opinions.

He said outright that magicians these days are afraid to lie. They're obsessed with being so clean and simple that they don't have to lie ever. He punctuated that with a rather blunt criticism of Wayne Houchin's Thread.

When you get right down to it, they're right! A magician is a very skillful and entertaining liar, but we've gotten to a point in our magic where all we seem to care about is having our methods so clean that we never have to lie. The closest many of us ever get is repeating Dai Vernon's cups and balls routine verbatim when you expose the false transfer.

So think about this for a moment. How many layers of deception do you really have in your routines? I don't know about you, but I'm giving my own repertoire a very serious overhaul.

 

[Sinful07]

"im honest about my dishonesty."

-Derren Brown.

i'll have to stop and think about this one.

 

[romeo sierra]

This kind of relates to an opinion I share about the way the majority of magic books are written. I assume there are various instructional videos presented the same way. I've always disagreed with the way effects are usually explained in two distinct sections: methods and presentations. First you see what you actually do to make an effect work. You learn about the sleights and gaffs and modus operandi to make an effect possible. Once you learn its mechanics, then you get taught about the effect's presentation. Here is the context of the effect, this is what you say. ...I disagree with this line of thinking, because I feel it sends the wrong message. People will often spend hours, days, weeks on the method alone-- just reading exactly how to physically do the magic. Once they feel it looks perfect, they'll merely glance over the presentation, get its gist, and figure it's good enough to perform. Ultimately, it inspires halfassed storylines that no one will believe because no one ever put the work into making the presentation part of the deception.

I feel that what you say is just as important (moreso actually) than the moves you execute to make an effect possible. Words should be treated like tools-- just like gimmicked cards and gaffed coins and flash paper. The words should be used to construct vivid images in people's heads to emphasise key moments in an effect. Not only will it make the effect more dynamic, it will literally force spectators into believing they saw something more than they really did. For example...

Derren Brown: Re-gifting

Watch this clip, and think about what you remember. You remember Simon Pegg only talking to Derren over the phone once before. You remember Derren using subliminal messaging by scattering "BMX" throughout his patter. You remember hearing Derren (apparently) using basic NLP techniques to anchor a thought. Then you see the reveal and Simon is dually impressed and confused. Then you remember him insisting he never wanted anything else despite what a piece of paper said in his wallet. You remember Derren apparently exchanging Simon Pegg's desires for another gift.

That's the power of words.

This entire clip has so many layers of deception, and full credit should be given to its presentation. The FULL method to this piece (in my opinion) is nothing more than a simple billet switch. This is a prime example of how words and lies and patter should be used as a technique in magic. It shouldn't be separated on its own and merely labled presentation, because more times than not-- the words you say will leave a stronger impact on an audience than the moves you do. More attention should be given to presentation. It needs to be looked at with the same intensity as the physical method to an effect, because that is what it is. Part of the method.

So with that... I lie like a rug...

RS.

 

[Morgan B]

I AM afraid to lie - but I am not afraid to create my own perception of the truth.

I consider my magic to be many truths with little white lies interjected for necessity.

It seems like you had a nice experience - however, I find the "don't worry about being clean" concept, advice given from those that don't do walk around....but have parlour style shows, or lecture. Nobody will question you when you are standing up in a group and paid to see a show, a bit different when you are strolling.

This is not to say that this is not a valuable lesson - however, I am not sure what you mean by your post, would you mind expanding. I am sure you are not asking me to look for more lies in my work? As for the layers of deception...it makes me think about the Ascanio books - that the magic should start before it starts and end after it really ends. Does that sum it up?

 

[Wallmott]

He said outright that magicians these days are afraid to lie. They're obsessed with being so clean and simple that they don't have to lie ever. He punctuated that with a rather blunt criticism of Wayne Houchin's Thread.

.

Why did he criticize Thread?

 

[Steerpike]

"im honest about my dishonesty."

-Derren Brown.

A rather eloquent lie all to itself. Derren is a sneaky SOB.

This kind of relates to an opinion I share about the way the majority of magic books are written. I assume there are various instructional videos presented the same way. I've always disagreed with the way effects are usually explained in two distinct sections: methods and presentations. First you see what you actually do to make an effect work. You learn about the sleights and gaffs and modus operandi to make an effect possible. Once you learn its mechanics, then you get taught about the effect's presentation. Here is the context of the effect, this is what you say. ...I disagree with this line of thinking, because I feel it sends the wrong message. People will often spend hours, days, weeks on the method alone-- just reading exactly how to physically do the magic. Once they feel it looks perfect, they'll merely glance over the presentation, get its gist, and figure it's good enough to perform. Ultimately, it inspires halfassed storylines that no one will believe because no one ever put the work into making the presentation part of the deception.

This is a big part of the point. Most magicians think that if it look good in a mirror, it's good enough. There's nothing else going on because they don't bother to think creatively about anything. There's no strategy. They only vaguely know what their destination is, and they're making up the journey as they go along.

It seems like you had a nice experience - however, I find the "don't worry about being clean" concept, advice given from those that don't do walk around....but have parlour style shows, or lecture. Nobody will question you when you are standing up in a group and paid to see a show, a bit different when you are strolling.

Not at all what they were saying, actually. Ben's coins across routine was probably the cleanest I've ever seen and can be performed surrounded. The point was that he added multiple layers of deception and gave every single movement a motivation.

Luke fooled the entire room with two gimmicks that most of the people here would absolutely refuse to use on principle, claiming they're too familiar and too kiddy. All because of the layers of deception he added.

Why did he criticize Thread?

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that.

His exact words were, "Pulling a piece of string out of your eye is not a [filth!] magic trick."

 

[Wallmott]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that.

His exact words were, "Pulling a piece of string out of your eye is not a [filth!] magic trick."

So what is it?

 

[Morgan B]

Thanks for the clarification - I would love to hear more about it.

What two props did Luke use?

 

[blahblah]

So what is it?

a fake sideshow stunt that you could present as something "weird" but not magical.

magic is something impossible, wayne even talks about how he presents it as more of a sideshow thing.

but it is a good effect if you present it well.

 

[Steerpike]

So what is it?

What do you think it is?

Thanks for the clarification - I would love to hear more about it.

What two props did Luke use?

I'm hesitant to say. In public anyway. If you must know, PM me. I can tell you what he used, but I'd rather not tip how he used them. Suffice to say that when I tell you what gimmick he used to fool Max Maven, you may be in for a shock.

 

[Wallmott]

What do you think it is?

.

A magic trick?

 

[coastaldude]

I always have some sort of lie in my performances, not in the sense that I am telling my story that is false but the way I want them to perceive things. It's cool Luke Jermay said that, big fan of his and his works. When people say they saw something or they believe how it worked I may explain the wrong way but still how its achieved and when I do w/e the trick is again they say they couldnt see me do the move or w/e. Lying is fun and when you have 17 years of practice it gets so much easier.

 

[Steerpike]

A magic trick?

Now try an answer that took more than a single nanosecond of thought.

I'd advise you to take some time and genuinely think about what's been spoken of in this thread.

 

[ThrallMind]

A magic trick?

*facepalms*

Is this really what magic has come to? Shock as a form or magic?

Thread is not magic, as people have presented something like this for ages as a sideshow. Including Ripleys Believe it or not.

Never has it been presented as a magic trick. It is now "considered" magic because Hoochy Woochy put it out.

It is no more a magic trick then regurgitation is.

That aside...

I agree wholehartedly with that, Steer. Magic by its very trade is about lying at its very core. Trying to kid yourself that you are doing anything else is, well, damaging to your performance.

-ThrallMind

 

[Deleted member 2755]

Its true that people are scared not to end clean. People need to remember that people aren't chasing after you after you have done a trick. While the trick may not be over for YOU, the trick is over for THEM. Joel Paschall talks about this on his DVD of Believe. Don't run from your moment. You just did something very astonishing. Let it sink in. Making every trick end clean will only hold you back from where you want to go. Don't let it.

-Doug

 

[Steerpike]

Its true that people are scared not to end clean. People need to remember that people aren't chasing after you after you have done a trick. While the trick may not be over for YOU, the trick is over for THEM. Joel Paschall talks about this on his DVD of Believe. Don't run from your moment. You just did something very astonishing. Let it sink in. Making every trick end clean will only hold you back from where you want to go. Don't let it.

-Doug

A little tangential to what I'm talking about.

The point I'm getting is that magicians are in a never-ending quest to advance mechanical methodology. But they never perform like they should. That's why our community is filled with wannabes and the bleached bones of those who tried for the throne and lost.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

Went ahead and deleted everything about Criss Angel. Let's get back on topic.

-Doug

 

[ThrallMind]

A little tangential to what I'm talking about.

The point I'm getting is that magicians are in a never-ending quest to advance mechanical methodology. But they never perform like they should. That's why our community is filled with wannabes and the bleached bones of those who tried for the throne and lost.

*hands you a drink*

See, this is exactly the problem. The same effects are being revamped with new handling. New methdology, when the effect, in essence, is the same in the end.

Magic has switched from a performance art which bring pleasure, to something more selfish. Now, an effect is judged by the method, and by how it fools other magicians. Not by how it entertains spectators.

-ThrallMind

 

[Wallmott]

lol why u laughing? I mean why not study the people who are on top? so u can get on top aswell and not on the bottom u want to be on top. He has a tv show and a big big big big stage show so why not study?

So why not listen to him? More then to the guys at the lecture? who worked under him, not even on tv, just behind on some seasons of Mind freak. Listen to the star.

Please guys ask yourself, who should i listen to and study? People performing smal gigs and having lectures? Or a guy who have a tv show, a stage show and who has allot of money?

 

[Deleted member 2755]

lol why u laughing? I mean why not study the people who are on top? so u can get on top aswell and not on the bottom u want to be on top. He has a tv show and a big big big big stage show so why not study?

So why not listen to him? More then to the guys at the lecture? who worked under him, not even on tv, just behind on some seasons of Mind freak. Listen to the star.

Please guys ask yourself, who should i listen to and study? People performing smal gigs and having lectures? Or a guy who have a tv show, a stage show and who has allot of money?

I'm trying to steer this thread away from Criss Angel as he's not the focus. However, I'll tell you Criss Angel has hurt the art more than anyone. Yes, they worked under him. However, they all quit. Criss Angel is an egotistical goth 40 year old who wears way too much jewlery. He will be off the air I believe within the next two years. Everyone who works with Criss is sick of him. Trust me on that.

No more talk of Criss Angel in this thread please because it is not the focus. If you wish to talk about Criss Angel, PM me. I'll be glad to talk about him with you.

-Doug