theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards

What is magic? The threshold between trickery and artistry.

aJohnson said:
So what I was getting at this, don't let the reactions be the be all and end all.
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Dude.
Thats exactly what steer and I are saying.



I'd also like to add that most magicians dont talk to their audiences.
They talk at them.
They memorize a script(original or not) and recite it as if saying it to a wall.Or a freshman in his high school theatre class.
 
I could be wrong but I read through the posts a few times just so I get a clear picture. You want your magic tricks to not be called tricks by spectators? I posted a thread about something similar not to long ago and no one had a straight answer and after practicing several effects I now know the factors that really can make it an "art" although I believe magic isn't really an art.

The factors that can determine it are

Age of you and spectator
Spectator experience with magic
Spectators output on magic
Performance of magic
Effect itself
Presentation of effect

Maybe some people would add some or just take it all away but I try to make the audience enjoy themselves and enjoy what I love to do. How much further can you go with magic? What point do you stop and ask is this all there is? You are trying to so so hard to make it all about you, not in the bad sense necessarily. You want everything to be based on what you do and if you perform fantastic then you expect freaking miracle believers (exaggeration). When I look to perform I have certain effects that I believe will make them more accepting to what is happening, if it's a heckler then don't expect a whole lot of misdirection tricks (except for card to mouth) and if they are looking up at you then pull off some crazy stuff that they will never see coming.
 
This is somewhat semantic, but so be it. I disagree with the idea that a performance elevates itself to artistry just because a spectators reaction is to believe for however long that magic is real.

I may be misreading the first post in this thread, the essance of which I agree with, and if I am I'm sure there'll be a queue of angry people to correct me, but isn't the entire premis of this thread based on reaction?

Sure, for me, I'm a simple person. I like to do magic, have fun doing it and make other people have fun. It may not be lofty, and it may not be satisfactory for everyone, but its enough for me. My problem with this thread's premis is:

How can you make an objective distrinction between a screaming reaction and a silent...."omg....magic is real" reaction and use that as the basis to seperate a mere trick from artistry? Or moreover, an audience saying, "Do another trick?" Not to get a bit linguistic here, but most people associate magic with a trick.

If the point is that a good performer will more readily suspend the disbelief of an audience and have them more suseptable to believe they have literally witnessed the impossible, then I agree completely. My problem is using the audience reaction as a way of making that judgement in any kind of an objective way. I've had reactions well beyond, "that's a trick", and I am no artist, nor does generating that kind of a reaction make me artistic in any way. I may have just performed a trick well.

In my opinion an artist should speak through their work, and make a point that transends the act of a card trick. That I agree with, but don't aspire to, because that defeats the purpose of the magic I like to do, as a hobbiest. To infer that the purpose of good magic is to prove that magic exists, or make people suspend their disbelief is like saying that a painting as an art form exists merely to show colors on a canvas. If people think they've seen a cheap trick, then you haven't failed as an artist, you've done worse and failed as a magician by any definition. In my opinion, however skeptical it may be, I believe that a good magician asks fundamental questions about people's rights to assume knowledge of the world around them. That's when a magician has done his or her job at all. With that as my definintion I don't think that magic is capable of being an art form in the truest sense of the word. It can't transend what it is into the abstract without losing itself completely.

I digress. Basically, I don't like the idea that an audience reaction can elevate a performance to art. Art at its uppermost extreme is completely and utterly unappreciable by the uninitiated. (Walk round any modern art exhibition with no formal artistic training and see what I mean.) That would totally defeat the purpose of magic at all, whether its called a trick or a life changing experience. Magic is a form of entertainment, no more, no less.
 
First off: I like the WTF reactions. It's instinctual and uncontrollable so it's usually honest. The reactions of the spectators' are what I work for primarily and this reaction helps put energy into the performance that me and the other spectator's can build off of.

Now I think the difference between artistry and trickery is you ask yourself 2 questions:

Will they remember this moment forever?
And why?

If the answer to the first question is yes, you have accomplished your job as a magician (assuming the answer to the second question isn't: Because you were SO bad) :)

For the second question, if you can answer with something along the lines of:

it was inspiring
it changed how they looked at the world
it touched them at a deeper emotional level

Basically if it makes them think, even subconsciously, that there was a deeper meaning.

I don't know.

What do you think?
 
I have heard magicians complain over their "MAGIC" being called "tricks" before...here is the thing:

When someone sees something, they label it how they see it, or how they know how:

If someone sees you do something and thinks it is a "trick", this is your issue to deal with, not theirs. If you want someone to call it "magic", then realize your effect selection and how you do it is giving a message of "TRICK" - if you want to make people think it is "magic" then consider doing magic effects that send that message.

Of course, people will call them "tricks" out of a limitation for terminology - but, I have few people call what I do "tricks" they call it "Your magic" as in - I would love to see more of YOUR MAGIC.

However, I have had people in the past call them everything from tricks to jokes - but that doesn't offend me - as the term...is just a term.

As long as I have reacted my goal in creating that connection with them, and offered them something with no solutions that they may never see again - really what I am doing is showing them what "REAL" (as in GOOD) magic is, so I can leave magic in their mind better than it was....

At that point - they can call it whatever they want...as long as they call me back to their table on the next visit, or call me to book a gig.

Your concern is over trivial matters...that being said - Steerpike brings up good points.

I almost like what aznofspades said, but the focus on "WTF" reactions concerns me - as it doesn't really communicate long term fooling - although he did in his post - also, I would have loved to see the gap filled between those two concepts. It has the makings of a good post.

Anyhow - I think Steerpike and visualartists posts are on this thread - I just wanted to address the first question.

This post has depth - hope to see more on it
 
John Carney said:
One might well ask, Is magic really an art at all? This is open to argument. However, I do feel there is an art in magic. By this I mean there is evidence of it in the work of exceptional magicians. There are magicians who have made it their duty to be artists, with all the responsibilities that commitment entails.
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I am not one of those exceptional people, however I have made it my work to become one, no matter how long it takes.
Jumping from 'trick' to 'art' is not some simple thing, in which you go, 'ohhh so I just have to change this to become an artist,' it's more of a long journey. That doesn't mean you have to take magic 100% seriously, just treat it as an art, and your 'tricks' will turn into pieces of art over time.
 
Thank you William. it was getting kinda sad there. I never do anything more than tricks. None of us do. I don't try to convince them i have special powers. I'm an entertainer. Magic is how I usually entertain. We're not warlocks. We do tricks. Whether the audience decides that you have powers or you're a great entertainer, is entirely up to them. I will always correct someone if the say I'm a great magician. Simply by saying, "I'm honored you were entertained." This discussion came up a little tiny bit at the Wayne Houchin lecture the other night. Entertain them. I don't like it when some tries to say they have special powers. Teller said it best to me. "If they loved the show, and enjoyed themselves, you did your job."

Create a memory, not a moment.
 
OneCardWonder said:
I digress. Basically, I don't like the idea that an audience reaction can elevate a performance to art.
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And I would tend to agree. But I would also suggest that those reactions might at the very least give us an idea of whether or not we're facing the right direction. At the very least, it's worth considering.

Art at its uppermost extreme is completely and utterly unappreciable by the uninitiated. (Walk round any modern art exhibition with no formal artistic training and see what I mean.) That would totally defeat the purpose of magic at all, whether its called a trick or a life changing experience. Magic is a form of entertainment, no more, no less.
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That opens up a few questions from me personally. Would you consider film an art? What about theater? Comedy? Rock and roll?
 
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Please read my post "What do you think"? - as I think it relates to this.

Also - I am curious about the feedback this will get - as it touches on these issues - of course...so far, the only posts I have got are for people to spoonfeed them how to think.
 
I would honestly disagree. I see a lot of kids doing cheesy crap all the time. I want to see that person a few weeks later and have them tell me That I was fun and that I have to come hang out with their friends. Not have them them walk away thinking, "He's a little better than my 7 year old cousin."
 
My not so good English will probably destroy the point I'm trying to make, but here it goes...

People are not stupid. They know it's some kind of a trick. They don't know "how?", but they know that it was some kind of a trick. So I wouldn't be so offended if someone called it a trick, instead of a miracle or magic. Somewhat intelligent people will think like this "Nobody was born with knowledge (special powers), so he must have learned that somewhere, so yeah, that is pretty great trick (TRICK)..." If there were really people that can do what we do (supernatural/magic), without using some kind of trick, those people would be all over the news and newspapers like the 8th world wonder. Or somewhere in CIA lab...

And for those people that truly believes in magic, supernatural and all that stuff, well, a simple double lift + revelation will be enough.

I mean, did anybody here believed that Copperfield has special powers? Or maybe David Blaine?
When I saw those guys perform, I was astonished and "my mind was blown blown" (TA reference ;) ), but I never taught that they have special powers, or that it was real magic, I know that they had a way to do that somehow, but I didn't know how.

And if someone was really magical, would he be at that coffee shop showing "magic" to random people, or would he do something more useful for himself and others?

So, all we can do is try to throw the best show that we can, blow blow their minds away, and hope that they will remember us for a long time...

Don't read to much into it when someone calls you a magician and not Gandalf.
Magicians will always perform tricks, and wizards will perform magic...
 
Toby said:
People are not stupid. They know it's some kind of a trick. They don't know "how?", but they know that it was some kind of a trick. So I wouldn't be so offended if someone called it a trick, instead of a miracle or magic. Somewhat intelligent people will think like this "Nobody was born with knowledge (special powers), so he must have learned that somewhere, so yeah, that is pretty great trick (TRICK)..." If there were really people that can do what we do (supernatural/magic), without using some kind of trick, those people would be all over the news and newspapers like the 8th world wonder. Or somewhere in CIA lab...
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I find it hard to believe they'd be doing card tricks. But have you considered what people think in the darkness of the seance room?
 
Steerpike said:
I find it hard to believe they'd be doing card tricks. But have you considered what people think in the darkness of the seance room?
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Sure, in the right circumstances and with right audience (like I said), anything is possible. We are on the same page there. I was referring to the audiences in restaurants or pizza places, because I think that OP is talking about those kind of audience and setting...
 
Perhaps the answer is in the routine itself. One could structure a routine so that there isn't a single obvious trick as such, but just a collection of small miracles. Like a Lennart Green routine or Derren Brown's 3 Card thing.

Just a thought.
 
Id like to tell of an experiment I did with these questions I had in mind.

6 months ago I performed Kaos for my group of friends I always hang out with in the mornings.
I deliberately made a mediocre,generic performance.
Just starting with pick a card,sign it. Saying "check out this window,nothing wierd about it right?"
Told them to spread the cards on the window and proceeded to pull the card through.
I was greeted with "oh Sh!t's" and "WTF".
After they settled down and we carried on with other things we were discussing they were telling me "man,that was a pretty cool trick" and other variations of that.The excitement of what I had done died pretty quickly
(for some, as they have stated, this is what they want.the screams and woahs)



2 weeks ago I performed the same effect for the exact same people.
But with a different approach.
I told them "check out this window from where your sitting. How can you tell that its here?"
To which they responded
"We can see the glare of the glass"
--"So in otherwords because you can see it right?"--
"Yeah"
--"And if I hit it,I can tell its there because im touching it obviously"--
"duh haha"
--"ok let me try something but lets just use a card for this,here just pull one out.."
...Handed the Deck over..
--"sign it and leave it on top"--
...They hand it back to me...Cut the cards and shuffle losing the card inside...
--"Look come here david and I want you to take the cards and spread 'em in a circle on the window here.."---
David-"ok"
---"now,remember 'bout what I was saying about how you know the glass is here from our senses right,but isnt our mind what tells us these things? Isnt reality what we make it then?
I dont believe that this glass is as solid as my eyes tell me..."
When I pulled it out there was a mixture of silence and woahs and some small screams and laughs.
David swore he felt me pull it.
And they just didnt scream or were shocked for a moment but they began talking about it.
And then other things that they have seen or read that makes them question of what we as people can do or not do.This sparked conversation for the rest of the morning.
The same person who told me before months ago that I did a good trick,looked at me for a bit and said "Man that was...magic dude..well, like, I know theres a trick but..I dont know.It was cool though whatever it was haha"
 
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I was going to open a thread about that, but I can just continue here...

What you just described was a "scientific presentation/explanation" of an effect, not magical. And I totally support scientific types of presentation, they are more "logical" and believable.

This thread goes neck to neck with Morgician's thread "What do you think?". He was talking about magical approach, like fairy's and unicorns and whatnot. I think that kind of presentation is only for the "chosen ones". But if you are aiming to a larger population (you know, restaurants, bars, party's), than scientific approach is a way to go.

If you (visualartist) tried to present KAOS in this way: "Look, I have magic dust in my pocket, that was made by a 1000 horns of unicorns, and if I put this magic dust at my fingertips, I can go through solid, and pull your card out. All I need to do is say "Shalakazam" (or whatever), and look, it's melting through the glass", that wouldn't fly with your audience.

Andrew Gerrard discussed this same topic in his interview on TA. He also likes scientific approach more than a magical one...
 
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