YouTube Magic

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Morgan B, May 8, 2008.

  1. I know context is hard to read...but.

    Sean - it was a Chuck Norris quote - and I am sure Chase realized it was a joke - as was his Chuck Norris joke - it wasn't an attack on his family. Your post shows a very low level of social understanding and reading comprehension, and reflects a lot on your intelligence or the lack of it. Thanks for adding a post that people will scroll past once they realize you have nothing to offer of substance.
     
  2. My friend, why attack the mans intelligence? stoop to a level that you adamitly disagree with? Lift each other up, don't just slash back because you feel he came back on you or a friend. No one is hurt, and its a forum. Chuck Norris jokes are fun, but not EVERYONE knows about them. Lets broaden the spectrum and see that much "common" sense is not that common, and much intelligent thought is just common sense.

    ###lazydog
     
  3. To quote Chase 'Wow...just wow'. It seems that you have a bad habit of talking down to people when they disagree with you or criticize you in some manner. I still stand by my original post stating you lack personality and also grace.

    ..and to assume Chase realize it as a joke reflects not only of your lowly intellect but also a lack of basic people's skills.
     
  4. STOP FIGHTIN'.... thank you

    ###lazydog
     
  5. The only sad thing is that we care about it and are scared about that magic tricks will be exposed.

    And why are we? because we are uncreative relying on others to come up with the latest and greatest effect.

    Be more creative, it sounds hard but its not impossible if you try. Bring out the basic magic books, (Royal road,Bobos, 13 steps to mentalism, that kind of books combine them with ideas, effects and principles that you know and try to come up with some new ideas and create some of your own original material that ONLY you are doing.
     
  6. Part 1

    You definitely implied that you did, and that youtube was the napster of magic.

    I did imply this – as Napster got shut down – why? Napster affected the music industry as free sharing programs do today – do I think it’s wrong? That is another topic. However, I think that Youtube does impact the way that magic is put out – as less put out books, to avoid losing money – it hits PDF share programs the next day. In addition, I think it impacts magic – however small, and it should be something we make a stance on.

    I actually don't know if MORE people are seeing magic from a percentage of population standpoint, which is what would really count.

    I am a psychology graduate at the University level – and actually did my Thesis on magic – my studies indicated, in addition to other things, that people are exposed to magic and have preconceived notions before they see live magic that have changed over the past 10 years, and even though my study isn’t worldwide – it makes sense that the popularity of David Blaine and Angel have made magic more common than before. However, this is moot point on the subject – so I will give you this one if you want.

    No, it's not. You can't deny that teaching is exposure. But it's not the same as ExPoSuRe. I recently saw a nationally known performer botch the Lion Cage illusion due to a tech glitch. The illusion was exposed, but it was not "Exposure".

    Please define exposure in a magic context for me Chase? (As I can see you making a comment about nudity if I didn’t include “in a magic context”) If making a mistake and exposing an illusion is not exposure – than I am showing EVERYONE I meet what a double lift is by messing it up. If you expose a building block of magic or flash something – that is exposure to me. Putting easy to figure out effects with poor handling and technique on Youtube is exposure. However, who cares? I am arguing for stronger methods and better technique – I am not going to get into this exposure hurts magic…no it doesn’t debate – as I can’t prove it and you can’t prove it doesn’t hurt magic.

    Yes, but you don't get to make rules for the general population controlling their behavior to reduce their chances of committing or being the victim of assault.

    I am glad you said this – because it leads me to answer Lazydog’s post too – you are right – I personally don’t make rules for the public; however, social norms dictate what becomes laws – but enough about pot in Canada – if we are not willing to take a stand on the standards in magic – then who will? Who is there to create boundaries? Through our peer network deciding what and how to uphold standards of deception can we make magic better – so – yeah, I don’t commit the crime, but I find it a selfish outlook to not want to make changes in magic by speaking out. Perhaps one day you will see it from a group perspective, rather than a mircosociological standpoint.

    Lazydog, I am not going to bash you – as you didn’t call my post ridiculous nor did you make me feel small – you just offered your opinion in a nice way – this is called discussion. The latter I find more invasive and argumentative. It used to be a personal investment to learn a secret – buy a book – buy a video – not easy to get, you had to go to a magic shop or order it. Now, a few clicks on a search engine and you can do magic. Read my post on Jumping Gemini – as I had to educate the group that it was not created by Roy Rapheli, but Darwin Ortiz! Youtube is changing magic history….soon it will be Cyril created magic! Chase, before you call me an idiot for “implying this” let me tell you the story of Roy Walton being told that his Card Warp was actually called the Voodoo Card…thank you YOUTUBE!
     
  7. Part 2

    Chase – Youtube has created a larger magician base – ask any magic shop owner that has had a shop for more than 10 years. With all these new magicians – many are lost as they don’t know what to read, how to learn and have no discipline to follow – as we did with guys like Vernon. It is funny that you are upset that I created “rules” but isn’t the first rule of magic – don’t reveal the secret? Aren’t there rules and guidelines in thousands of books – what make mine so horrible that you “Vehemently disagree with them”? Speaking of that…


    I understand. I disagree. Vehemently. I am sorry, again, if it felt personal.

    If you re-read your two posts – you can see easily how I felt you went over the top with your responses – if we both play that game – what happens? This thread gets closed and nothing is learnt. I would much rather you share your thoughts how you have in this post – and we can discuss the reasons why you disagree. So far – I will be honest – I know you don’t agree – but I am not sure if I could summarize the reason why. I would love a PM clarifying what exactly you feel you disagree with – so we can discuss those specific points.


    Lots of magicians take liberty with the code for good reason. For example anyone who does a gambling sleight demonstration. They are not maintaining the illusion of magic. The code is there to be obeyed in spirit, not letter. To require an excited 12 year old to hold to the same standard as a seasoned performer is unreasonable. Magic malpractice is prescribing a treatment for a condition that is part of natural progression. You don't give pills to a kid suffering from puberty. You help him endure it.

    First, I think you mistake magic with gambling – it is a different branch, and I believe the two should not be overlapped, as your claims are different for both…or perhaps should be. And of course…anyone else that is taking liberty with the oath – I would argue…to what level? Vehemently. I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask a 12 year old to strive for that level – as I would not call myself a musician simply because I can strum a guitar…then when asked to play actual notes – say, “look man, I am twelve okay – you can’t expect me to uphold those standards of what you call music”. It’s pretty liberal of you – but honestly Chase – I see nothing wrong with having standards to strive for. As for your puberty analogy – I may not offer the kid a pill – but I do offer solid advice, guidelines and boundaries/rules to a child to prevent him from straying and ending up on the wrong path. Which brings me back to your low blow “Mommy comment” – this post was intended for those with no Mommy that are seeking guidance in making their magic better – and if they want to showcase it – in a way that they will be proud of – you posted a reply Chase….I never asked to be your Mommy – but I would gladly be one if needed. Again, think of those that are not at your level – what advice would you want when you first started?

    I felt it was originally worded as a demand. You seem to have softened the wording. I appreciate that.

    Jami Ian Swiss gave some great advice – people won’t be bothered to read – if you don’t bother them with what you say. I wrote this for the young audience – which makes me wonder why you even decided to reply. Anyhow, I did soften the words as I did realize that it came off demanding, rather than informative. I guess that is what I get by not taking the time to turn my 15 minutes break post into a legal document that could be dissected by anyone that found fault in my words. Another reason I hate forums – and writing for magicians – I can’t just speak my mind and stand by my convictions – as even my tone is argued. Hell – Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz…actually has a list of rules in the back – sorry…he calls them LAWS!! Does that bother you? It shouldn’t – as I really feel we need to come together and set some standards.


    Yes. Your standard. And, again, I'm not sure it was a request.

    I shouldn’t have to pus-sy foot around when I make a post – they are not “my standards” but the standards from those whose shoulders I proudly stand on – and have shared brilliant thinking with me – and if you do not live by the same standards of deceptions, then perhaps we have more to talk about…if you do…then they are not “mine” – just as Christianity is not mine – but it is a standard of living – and if I were to talk about that – I would talk about all the different approaches. Again, this point should be moot because of that thing…freedom of speech. I can state whatever I want – even if it’s not requested – and people have the right to make up their own minds. What I don’t agree with – is bashing my right to speak, or ridiculing my “magic religion” as its personal convictions – and I know in America this may be accepted in the media – as I am starting to feel like a Dixie Chic. We can disagree – but you can disagree with me without undercutting my points.

    I sincerely don't remember Tom being crucified by his peers. And neither does he. Several performers questioned whether this effect was too "good" to reveal and Max Maven bopped him in a public way in print. The crucifying came from the hobbyists who wrote letters to the editor. And, incidentally, this piece was exposed and it KILLS now. No one remembers.

    Hmm, the IBM went to town on Mullica, and Tom shared this with us at a convention – perhaps peers is bad wording, is Max Maven not one of his peers? I am sure nobody remembers it…but I mailed guy and he said this is how he learnt it…thank you Youtube.
    http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=msSsjWxS9iY

    However, for the most part – you are right – why would anyone remember something so small and trivial…but perhaps they can find something better from the close to 2500 posts that come up when I type Magic trick revealed. Lastly, are you telling me I am going to have to wait nearly 15-20 years before an exposed piece of magic is good to do again? I don’t have that kind of time.

    I am willing to stand up and help anyone who is interested in being helped. Ask around. I've given time, advice, props, and bookings to others.

    I believe you – but then I ask you to help me help others – include what your standards are and then as a group we can decide how we can stop poor Youtube posts, exposure or whatever plagues magic – while continuing to make our own magic strong.

    I think that lists of rules will not help. I think that demands on kids who want to be special by learning some tricks will not help magic.

    Let’s agree to call them guidelines – hence the change – however, rules and boundaries have never hurt someone in magic – as long as there is room for interpretation to maintain an art – I don’t’ think my recommendations will prevent anyone from posting – but perhaps give them some help in making solid posts – do you at least see or agree with this?

    I'm sorry you feel that way. Many would disagree with you. I would disagree with you. I am very giving and generous. Maybe we can learn more about each other so that we can be secure in disagreeing with each other without feeling personally attacked. I would like that. (No Sarcasm. Promise.)

    I am sure you can see that from the tone of your posts and the difference in this one – that if you approached me with your conflicting view we could have easily had a good discussion – which looks like it is developing. I look forward to future posts and hope you come with an open mind, as I will too. I have already bent a little in good faith by changing my original post. Sorry if my response was strong. I just want to state again – as I am sure you know – the Chuck Norris thing was an extension of a Chuck Norris joke – and for certain I wouldn’t wish harm against your family…but Chuck Norris might.

    If my original post seems short and flippant, hopefully this one makes up for it. The length alone should assure you that I do take this topic seriously. Don't mistake my passion in disagreement for being ignorant or just hateful.

    I appreciate your response and your new approach – I look forward to discussing things with less passion and more mind – as you have done in your previous reply.

    Thanks Chase – I look forward to your response.
     
  8. Actually, he only has a habit of talking down to people who try to talk their way in circles while only further illustrating their own lack of having any clue what so ever as to what is really being said.

    In other words, once someone has made it apparent that there is no point in talking to them as they are being too blind to open their eyes to what is being suggested, and thus, they have absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation, all they are doing by being here commenting is antagonizing, THEN he talks down to them :D
     
  9. well, I guess all this typing IS good finger exercises... but it doesn't change anything or offer an alternative way to change the situation. We should all be friends :-D

    ::sings:: "friends are friends forever"

    ###lazydog
     
  10. We are friends - and I hope soon that Chase will soon post, so we can discuss points of concern.

    ON a side note to the rest: even though Chase didn't like the way it was delivered - I think the content is valid.
     
  11. Magix Exposure on Youtube is really annoying. I mean everytime i perform at my school people actually tell me that they are just going to look on youtube to figure it out.


    So what? they are right you simply have to type in "card trick" and your in on the in my oppinion strongest card slight... the double Lift


    I really think that something has to be done against this kind of magic exposure... ofc it also damages those companys like Theory11; E and Penguin Magic but the hardest hitting point in my oppinion is the point that it hits all magicians out there...if everyone knows even one secret to a trick, they know that the rest is just a trick aswell. And i really enjoy to bring people to really think that this "Real Magic" exists.
     
  12. #33 curtisk, May 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2008
    As I was perusing the links in the parent post(Another Rumour, yeah I had to shade my eyes at some of the flashing), in the handy "Related" links I came across this gem:

    [Link removed due to exposure.]

    I can die tomorrow knowing that someone can actually do a snap change poorly! And then teach it! Huzzah!

    *What you don't see in the video is how this magi misdirects the spectator from that extremely large "flag" (a.k.a. that index finger waving in mid air, WTF?!?)

    Patter: "Man, the twins itch!" *scratch scratch(scratching sound also covers sonic-boom-level snap)* (point of misdirection) (change)
    Spec: "Wow! What the...."

    So really in this case, its not that the performance is so bad, its just poorly shot and didn't get the full effect in frame. :p


    Back on topic: "Tube-icians"© 2008 curtisk - all rights reserved are annoying and usually good for a chuckle or three, but they are only in it for themselves and the "look at me" factor, which actually is a common trait with magicians, so there you go. Except until youtube et. al. that type of sloppyness was contained to their immediate group of friends, not the whole internet. Which in general, sucks.

    Garrrrrrr!!!
     
  13. Ben123 - it can be annoying - what I have done is, when possible, send a message in a nice way to point out what flashes. Most guys are happy with the feedback. I remind them that flashing and this kind of thing is against the Oath and it is considered exposure. I ask them to refilm it or take it down. Not everyone will - but we can stop em all, we can only help keep each other in check. The Oath has been thrown out the window - but it shouldn't have been, for without the secrets to magic - we really don't have a foundation. As Chase said - do your stuff as best you can and don't be part of the problem - and when you can, speak out nicely against exposure. If we all do our part - it is like magic pollution - we can all pick up magic litter and impact the magic environment. No petitions, or anger...just education and maybe some guidelines....some call them rules, but perhaps for now on...guidelines.

    Curtisk - the irony - you are against exposure and your link gets removed as you were promoting exposure...haha, regardless, I love your catch phrases and will be sending you a cheque for using the terms...then realized, like all good magicians if I create a variant - I don't have to credit you - so "Tubicians"© 2008 Morgician - all rights reserved - will be my term, haha.

    This is where I think my original post comes in - if people follow these guidelines it should decrease the amount of exposure that exists - which means I could add this.

    - NO TUTORIALS please. When you share the secret, you lower the value of the method for everyone...but especially yourself.

    Thanks for adding your thoughts guys. Anything else?
     
  14. I better do this quick!

    Youber © 2008 LazyDog - all rights reserved
    tubeidian © 2008 LazyDog - all rights reserved
    Youtubian © 2008 LazyDog - all rights reserved
    you-tube-o-phyte © 2008 LazyDog - all rights reserved
    you-rite (your right hehehehe) © 2008 LazyDog - all rights reserved

    and the scientific:

    yewtubious exposerus © 2008 LazyDog - all rights reserved

    ###lazydog
     
  15. Then they should just have a blanket filter on YouTube links on this site, in all seriousness, even if they aren't planned "Tutorials", 90% of what's out there is so poor, it is an inadvertent tutorial in actuality.

    Whether I link to them (in this case I was using it to illustrate what stinkers are out there, he didn't have to make it a tutorial, the performance was so blatant, anyways...) or not, they still exist. And as long as YouTube has its click thru, they don't care. Whether or not the mod removes the link, that crap is still out there.

    Ah well, yes ironic for sure, and well played on my copyrighted name!(Or variations thereof) You certainly have learned well :) I'd expect no less, you're a bright fellow based on the other posts I've seen..

    It sucks that it happens, and its funny to me that your original links weren't bumped, sure they don't give up the whole game, but they do give up some key points in the routines, ah well, to each their own.

    I gotta get back to practicing the "take my thumb tip off and put it back on (NO GIMMICK, LEARN IN MINUTES, STREET READY!!)" trick so I can sell it as a DVD or maybe I'll just put it on the 'Tube.
    :p
     
  16. Yeah - I find that funny too - imagine the Mods made a stance that really poorly done magic links to Youtube were removed? Anyhow, you seem like a pretty bright guy yourself - so do your best to educate without being angry - and I think you will notice a difference. Many of those in my circle have spoke out against poor quality posts - and have had them removed by the User or altered - but at the very least - they have made a difference.

    Glad to have you on board - it's not worth being angry about, but for sure it is worth discussing and thinking about.

    In short, Youtube magic is for biters! Close up is meant for real people - watch people dive on that blanket statement. Later!
     
  17. ok, since you asked me to look at your posts t osee if you were worthy of the award i did.

    and i did crap myself, from how stupid this is


    the only people who look up exposure videos are magicians. MOST laymen do not do this. honestly
     
  18. there are some LONG posts here, really LONG..

    Without reading the posts above


    This one is stupid man, no offense.. Cus if you upload a flawless performance of ANY trick, the spectator can rewatch it 31315168146518431614941 times, and they wont have any idea of how it works.. why?

    because its the same performance ;) when they play rewatch, they watch the SAME performance, so they wont flash.. this isnt like a live performance, that you may flash or something like that..

    I know this sounds stupid, but the thing you said looks more stupid

    Aris,
     
  19. i completely agree, youtube even its a performance video, the spectator can find it out.

    MAYBE youre live performance sparked an interest in magic, so they look up tricks online (performances, david copeprfield, lance burton, stuff like that)

    also, in my street show, i say, if any of you have been influenced by my show, take a look at royal road to card magic, you can find it most of youre local libraries. it was my first book, and look where it has gotten me. but dont looking for how the tricks are done without doing it right. it insults me, the magic community, and the art itself. I work very hard at what i do, so dont ruin it please. I worked very hard to get where i am, entertaining for you wonderful people, and this all started from that book, the royal road to card magic. So please respect what we do, and once again, thank you my audience, without you there is no show.

    but if they watch a performance, its so amazing, they have to watch it again (which is understandable) then maybe they see something that they didnt catch the first time. so they watch it again, then slowly break it down and understand how its done. which isnt to blame to them, but just the medium that has gotten popular.

    honestly though, MOST laymen DO NOT look up exposure on youtube. at least, from the way i present my effects, there is no name that can be searched for that would bring up results quickly.

    so, thats just what ive experienced and learned, and so far, not one person has come up to me or told other people that they looked it up and saw how it was done.

    BTW, im a freshman in high school for those who didnt know
     

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