Torrents vs Selling
- Thread starter Magic Man4293
- Start date
Ebay is not very much wrong. Torrents are pirating, they're stealing content, and posting it on the web for fee. It's a crime. With eBay it's just unethical, but in my opinion not very much. I've sold gimmicks on there before, and I've bought some eBooks too. I understand why some people think eBay is wrong, and I sort of agree. Torrents are just illegal, and wrong. It's just like pirating a DVD or movie. Selling a magic DVD is just selling a regular DVD. People who torrent things deserve to be punished.
UPLOADING Torrents may be illegal, but not unethical. I don't see the diff in between that and lending a record to your buddies.
Okay, now sell me on why the second-hand market is a moral blight that needs to be stopped.
See your above quote. Make up your mind.
Wrong! It's not theft, it's copyright infringement. If you can't tell the difference, don't enter the debate.
How and why?
Same question.
Really? Illegal but ethical?
Haven't you read any of the disclaimers at the beginning of all T11 products? About creating a new flavor of (ice cream?) with a secret ingredient and then someone learning your secret ingredient and sharing it with the world so that you can no longer get any credit/profit from the amazing product you created.
The ethicality of it is the same as exposing an effect on youtube.
Unethical, and illegal... hm...
So congratulations now everyone knows that you torrent magic. Prepare to be shunned.
-Kevin
P.S. that was a joke at the end
Wait...I'm a bit confused. Without getting into the ethical debate portion of your post, do you really not see the difference between lending out an item, and copying an item and distributing the copies (thus not losing anything yourself, temporarily or otherwise)?
Alright, this is getting on my nerves, so I'm going to speak directly.
I want someone to explain to me why they think people buy second-hand products and download torrents
Anyone who posts past this point and does not attempt to answer the question, even if it's to say, "I don't know," will be labeled officially stupid or officially does not read past the first post.
There is no way in hell this issue is ever going to approach a solution until the magic community starts thinking in terms of causes instead of effects.
I want someone to explain to me why they think people buy second-hand products and download torrents
Anyone who posts past this point and does not attempt to answer the question, even if it's to say, "I don't know," will be labeled officially stupid or officially does not read past the first post.
There is no way in hell this issue is ever going to approach a solution until the magic community starts thinking in terms of causes instead of effects.
That is entirely irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. You're all still stuck on the effect, instead of the cause.
Piracy is going to continue because the number of magicians who actually stop and consider why this goes on are in the extreme minority. Until more of us shape up and start thinking about it, nothing is going to change.
Simple question, simple answer. Because everyone does it.
The majority of the people who go out of their way to run down people who do this stuff are people who are guilty themselves.
I'm not accusing anybody, but there are definitely hypocrites here.
-Kevin
People do not want to pay the money. There are people who can't afford it, and then there are people who can't get their parents to buy the material for them.
They find out about these things called torrents and bam! Forget about the era of studying and dissecting magic works and move on to the era of everyone needing to know how everything is done and needing the latest greatest product out there. By the cheapest means possible
I can admit. I don't like paying for movies. Nor do I like spending hundreds of dollars at movie theaters. So I have a surround sound speaker system at my computer and a 24 inch monitor.
So if torrenting occurs because of a lack of wealth, could not a case be made for leniency sometimes?
And is that the only reason why people use torrents?
The implication being that people who use torrents do not study. Ever.
Do you torrent the movies? If yes, then doesn't it strike you as disingenuous to criticize others for torrenting something else?
If no, then perhaps you are sitting on the answer, but you're too close to see it.
1.) A large chunk of today's magicians are teenagers with very little to no income? Or some aspiring magicians might not have the money to spend on the art they love?
2.) The nature of our art requires that we can only know about 30% of the whole effect until we buy it. You can't really tell if an effect is right for you until after you buy it, and people hate to waste money (especially 30-40 bucks a pop?)
3.) Some people feel that the majority of what's out on the market isn't worth what it's priced at?
4.) A lot of free magic is easily accessible if you where to look on the internet, and hey, if you CAN get it for free, why not?
5.) There really isn't a sense of ethic going on in the community, and people are just pretending because: it makes them look good in front of other magicians; they're afraid to admit it; and, as you've pointed out, it gives the illusion of solidarity.
I'm sure there's more.
I understand how people would want DVDs for free. But what I don't get is why people buy these DVDs and then uploading them to a torrent site.
Are they trying to make friends or something? Why do they do it?
These people need to get a life.
Are they trying to make friends or something? Why do they do it?
These people need to get a life.
I'll have a go at this one. I suspect there's several main causes. The target market for theory 11 is primarily teenagers, there's certainly many older people who like their products however the whole flashy production, underground vibe certainly appeals more to younger magicians. Most of these magicians will be at school and more than likely don't have a job, they have very little income. They maybe get enough off their parents to buy one dvd every few months (Assuming they want to buy other stuff as well) however, they are not satisfied with this and still want more magic. This desire outweights the respect they have for the creators (which is, unfortunatley, often very little) and torrent it.
This effect is amplified by the world they grow up in. Music can be downloaded for free, tv shows can be downloaded, you can basically have anything you want whenever you want it. This culture does not enourage respect for anything. It's unsurprising that this attitude carries over into magic. Especially when combined with a lack of money,
Also contributing to this, as I mentioned earlier, is the desire to constantly have more magic and to have the latest and best effect, this may be somewhat within our control (I suspect nothing can be done about the other factors). If new magicians were taught to properly study and learn material well they would feel no need to constantly acquire the latest material and would selectively buy things as they need them and as they are buying them far less frequently they will be able to afford them. This approach is also likely to encourage more respect towards creators and reduce piracy futher.
I don't know how much truth is in this but that's what I suspect may be causing piracy.
It's odd - almost as if the torrent-folk spreading free magic amongst one another have a better sense of community than, say, other magicians.
We have a winner!
Is that the only motivation you can think of?
You're on to something.
Part of the issue is respect, and part of it is adhering to a rigidly unchanging business model. The dynamics of commerce are rapidly changing in the modern world thanks to the Age of Information.
I recall a story of a speaker who sold his books at his talks. He had a standing policy that if someone wanted one of his books but was unable to pay him on the spot, they could take the book and send him a check later. Of those who did this, over 80% not only did pay him by check, they bought more books of his. This profit greatly outweighed what he lost from those who took the books and never paid. And after some thought, he figured that he would have lost roughly the same revenue to piracy anyway.
Shareware magic. Hmm...