"This is a trick" vs "I have powers"

[sky_lark]

If he did, he would have been able to tell Criss what was in his envelopes.

Anthony Bass

I'm not quite caught up on the Phenomenon episodes, but just to argue for the point of arguing, maybe he didn't want to.

 

[notrey]

He didn't want to? He could have gotten one million dollars! Surely you know a good charity that could use a cool million.

But of course, you jest...right?

Glue: Yes, that would be wrong to pass off PK effects as with the mind. Well, in my opinions, anyway. Simply put, its a blatant lie. People know that when you do stuff like the ambitious card and tricks like that, that it's only tricks. Same should go with PK effects. People cannot really bend metal with their minds, and you aren't doing it in a PK effect. Just say its a trick.

Perhaps I'm like this due to my skepticism towards all this. Dunno, maybe its just me. In fact, I'm so die hard on not professing abilities like that, when I was performing for a friend, she called her roommates into the room, yelling "DOOD HES BENDING IT WITH HIS MIND!" which I had to correct and say "Well, thats the illusion, I'm bending it with my hands, you just don't catch me." I don't reveal the effect, but I do not want people thinking that the mind has anything to do with it.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

Same reason you don't tell those same people you live in a mansion and talk to a god at night and drive expensive cars while fighting crime.

It's a blatant lie.

I live in a mansion because I need no space, I pray, and my car cost a lot of money to me. And I fight against those who do wrongly. Does that make me a liar? I honestly feel like turning over two cards and saying look at THIS card is more of a lie than anything you've stated.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

Actually, I reference my earlier statement on my Power of Dreams show.

I never say one way or the other whether or not I have powers, and I don't need to. I create an ambience lit by candles with my voice softened and ideal for an intimate setting. The magic is done by my spectators. With me helping to guide them, they warp metal with their minds, experience a past life in prehistoric times, and face and conquer one of their deepest fears.

At no point do I need to act like a con man and tell everyone how magical I am. The spectators are given reason to believe in their own strength of will and mind. They're inspired to better themselves for the experience and shown to recognize the beauty in the world around them.

I structured the show to stimulate four out of the five senses, and I might add Taste-icular to stimulate the sense of taste as well. The scripting is heavily steeped in Romantic philosophy, and the atmosphere is one of mystique and mystery.

I never need to claim I have powers, but I also never need to say I don't have them, because it never comes into question.

This is an interesting show for me because I also am a practitioner of haunted magic. I avoid saying I have any mediumistic powers or denying to maintain the atmosphere of the show, but I do come clean if I suspect that someone is taking this a little too seriously.

Brother, count your I's and My's. The focus of presenting yourself as someone who can do real magic is on the audience. What do they think? I think this is the important part what way do you want them to turn?

 

[notrey]

I honestly feel like turning over two cards and saying look at THIS card is more of a lie than anything you've stated.

the difference is, people realize it is a trick. If you try to pass a trick off as genuine, thats just completely wrong. And my hypothetical was based off the hypothetical that you don't do/have any of those things to start with, yet tell people otherwise. It is blatant lying, no longer is it a trick.

 

[arcangeld]

Sometimes I present myself as a way to escape from reality. That while my show is going on the impossible is normal and where magic is real. This is not to say that it is real, just to further enhance their experience so they won't be so caught up with hows and whys.

At the end, I just tell them what they just witnessed is nothing more than good (I hope ) performance and ask them to tell their friends and family to come for the next show

 

[Steerpike]

Brother, count your I's and My's. The focus of presenting yourself as someone who can do real magic is on the audience. What do they think? I think this is the important part what way do you want them to turn?

If they start to think I possess powers that can give them answers to important spiritual and metaphysical questions, then I have to tell the truth, because they can't get those answers from a performance artist.

That's where I draw the line. Some people want to believe in something extraordinary, and they will no matter what we tell them. It happens. If we can use our showmanship to inspire people to something better, that's great. But we can't give answers that no one else has.

 

[Guardian452]

if you have a deck of cards in your hand, you have no powers

 

[drorange]

i don't say anything and leave it for the audience they make their own decision in their mind

 

[OwnerM]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here because it seems a question is asked and most everyone agrees with the proper way to go about it. Proper being what is expected among the magic community on how to treat your spectators. What though if you do claim you have powers? Wouldn't that make everything you make appear or dissappear more realistic and engaging to the audience? Or is everyone afraid to get called a scam artist? As long as you don't gather a following/cult and claim to harness the powers of Jesus what is wrong with having people think other people can do extraordinary things? It could even make people strive harder to make their own lives better.

Please, please, please play devil's advocate. Great debates and discussions come from that.

IMHO, once you say you have magic powers, that takes the magic away from it. If I can read minds, let's say, (I can't). And I get famous for it, it will get boring. Then ANY trick I do, people will say "Well, it's been proven he can read minds, so that's what he's doing". Any performance I do is no longer amazing because the secret is revealed.

But, if I claim I can reading minds, perform a trick, then immedently after the reveal tell everyone I lied and I can't read minds, in fact, I don't believe it at all, it leave the audience with a sense of "how the hell did he do that????"

So, personally, I find people who claim to have powers boring.

This is an interesting show for me because I also am a practitioner of haunted magic. I avoid saying I have any mediumistic powers or denying to maintain the atmosphere of the show, but I do come clean if I suspect that someone is taking this a little too seriously.

What you do, Steerpike, is great! I see no harm in it, you do your presentation, you set an atmosphere and help people guide themselves. That's wonderful.

And, here's the important thing to me, you come clean. That's the key. If you come clean when asked or when someone starts getting to serious with it, then no foul.

Sometimes, some people from the audience will not believe you when you do come clean. That's happens to me all the time and I admit from the start it's a trick. Those people you can't convince no matter what you do, unfortunately.

And I'd love to catch your show sometime. It sounds great.

Just wondering, people who are in this thread, do you consider PK effects to be lying? A.k.a. saying that with your mind, yo're bending the spoon/making something move?

I do PKTouch. I've explain before on this board how I do it:

I tell the audience that there is a psychic connection between people in love (or married, or friends, etc). I tell them that this phenomeon is called "Partner Psychosynchosis".

I sit down one of the couples, tell the sitted person to close her eyes and remain absolutely still no matter what happens.

I tell them that this is important because I have to get the flow of air between the two people clear so a strong psychic connection is made. I wave my hands around the sitted person, then wave hands around the standing person. I then touch the standing person.

I then tell the seated person to open her eyes and ask her if she felt a touch. She does and exactly where I touched her standing partner!

The people are impressed. They have found a new psychic thing they can try. They start to think and ask me questions "Is clearing the air something you have to be a psychic to do? Exactly how do you clear the air? What is the vibes you feel?" etc.

Then I land the bomb.

I tell them that I made the whole thing up. I don't expose it, but I do tell them everything I said was false. There is no such thing as "Partner Psychosynchosis", that I made that up, and I've done nothing paranormal.

I then say "Honestly, all I've really done was fool you."

Dead. Silence.

Now they are thinking. They are replaying the trick in their heads, discarding the paranormal stuff. To this day no one has figured it out, but the seed is planted. They are now more amazed because simple human real life mundane things caused a now impossible effect. No psychic, no god, no ghosts. Just mundane human and science.

The trick becomes real magic because it was done in the real world.

That's how I handle it.

 

[ace18]

I agree. I don't think people should lie and pass themselves off as real magicians. But, one point I have is that for example, when someone does a loop effect, what does he say? I think for those effects, one can't say either that they have powers, for he is a liar, or, saying it was a trick, which partially takes away the impossibility for the trick.

Just wondering, people who are in this thread, do you consider PK effects to be lying? A.k.a. saying that with your mind, yo're bending the spoon/making something move?

Kid, if you don't like lying, you may want to take up a new hobby, since magic is all about deception.

And honestly the audience doesn't really want an explanation, there are different types of spectators, just a few:

Gullible: These people will believe every single word you say. And at the end, they just go with what happened, they don't really want an explanation, because they believe what just happened.

Average: They usually believe what you say, just do not BS too much, make the effect believable. At the end, some want the explanation, some don't. The reason they ask "How did you do that?", is because they do not comprehend how that was possible. But in the end they usually just give up on trying to explain it and just let it go.

Hard-Asses: These guys know that you are most likely BSing them, so they sort of just pretend to listen, they tend to have "Selective Hearing". At the end, they always want an explanation. Why? Because they do n ot want to believ what they saw, and they refuse to let it go, the sometimes end up making up their own explanation, which is usually miles away from the actual explanation.

 

[Anthony Bass]

I'd just like to post something I heard Alain Nu say in a recent interview with Lee Asher that Lee sent in a newsletter to all of his subscribers. Nu said:

"Whether you're a magician, or a mentalist, or a side show artist, or a hypnotist, or anybody within this large mystery-making paradigm – consider that everything that you do is an actual power. Not necessarily a real power or a fake power, but a power. A power that enables you to do the things that you do. It enables you to get done the things that you get done. That power enables you to do just about anything from influence people in many different ways to possibly ‘earn your keep' within a job or just about anything. When you put someone in a state of mind that only this mystery making do can, you're putting people in a state of mind that kind of breaks down their sense of reality and though sometimes they might just be suspending their disbelief when they get put in that state of mind, I think that potentially there's a good place to inject some seed of wisdom, something that will empower them, that will make them a better person. Perhaps if we see our magic as something that enables us to do that – maybe we can evolve more and legitimize our art even more than it ever has."

Hope that gets you thinking.
Anthony Bass

 

[phrozunsun]

I'd just like to post something I heard Alain Nu say in a recent interview with Lee Asher that Lee sent in a newsletter to all of his subscribers. Nu said:

"Whether you're a magician, or a mentalist, or a side show artist, or a hypnotist, or anybody within this large mystery-making paradigm – consider that everything that you do is an actual power. Not necessarily a real power or a fake power, but a power. A power that enables you to do the things that you do. It enables you to get done the things that you get done. That power enables you to do just about anything from influence people in many different ways to possibly ‘earn your keep' within a job or just about anything. When you put someone in a state of mind that only this mystery making do can, you're putting people in a state of mind that kind of breaks down their sense of reality and though sometimes they might just be suspending their disbelief when they get put in that state of mind, I think that potentially there's a good place to inject some seed of wisdom, something that will empower them, that will make them a better person. Perhaps if we see our magic as something that enables us to do that – maybe we can evolve more and legitimize our art even more than it ever has."

Hope that gets you thinking.
Anthony Bass

the same could be said about actors, singers, any performers really....Having a "power" is not the same as having a "skill"

I think the issue is more of an ethical one regarding the pepertuation of the ability to manipulate things via a connectio with the supernatural and how tons of people are exploited by it.

The damage it does is obvious. Scammers see it as an opportunity to convince people they have special powers and build a sort of cult following. Many "Psychic Advisors" do this. Alot of repeat business. People assign a meaning to things and it becomes a part of their reality. Look into NLP, specifically how we filter things. and you'll understand.

On the other hand, take out too much of the mystery, and there's nothing special about it at all. So you have to maintain a balance.

 

[OwnerM]

On the other hand, take out too much of the mystery, and there's nothing special about it at all. So you have to maintain a balance.

I think that's the point. This whole thing about "lieing" to an audience is true. That's 99% of what we do. We trick, fool, decieve, lie, cheat, distract and in some cases, steal to perform the effect we want to produce.

But, in all of that, I think we have to be honest with our lies. Not expose them of course, but, if someone comes up to us and asks if our "lies" are true, we have to say "no".

Because if we say "yes", we've crossed that line. We've broken the lie we shouldn't have broken.

I think people expect to be lied to and fooled. It's our responsiblity when we are asked "do you have powers" our response is "no, we have skills. Skills in fooling you".

....of course, we don't have to say it in that way....

(Again, all my opinion only. And I'm wondering if anyone here either claims or believes to have powers. I'd like to hear your opinion why. And I just want to hear your side of the story. I promise not to flame or insult you or your beliefs. However, I will debate you. )

 

[Liam Carrie]

A lot of magicians say its good to be yourself but it depends what you are looking for. Robert houdin stated We are all actors. Not magicians, Actors. We Act like we perform miracles. But we dont. Some people want to believe that we have powers because they cannot find a logical explanation, it depends on what you want. If you want people to think you have powers its up to you Youre the actor not them, It depends on what the magician wants the person to see them as. Its all theatrics, in the beginning magic was Acting and magic, And now its just magic. If you want you can put acting back into magic by creating your owm magical charecter but when you are performing for magicians just be yourself, thats fine with me. The only reason i dont really like criss angel is because he uses camera tricks and holdout devices. Now if a layperson was a big fan of criss then came to us and asked us to do a trick, We wouldent impress them as much because they were too used to looking at criss angel. If we want to look like the best magician they ever saw, they couldent be a fan of criss unless we were michael ammar or something. We cant beat camera tricks with sleight of hand. But Someday us magicians will break the rules and rise above camera tricks and Phony stooges. We will all become legends of magic. A revolution is coming. Keep waiting

 

[phrozunsun]

See, I can't hate criss for his technical abilities, gimmicks, stooges or whatever. That's just part of the whole thing, some choose to do it, some don't. I do a great mentalist coding routine with a friend as a hidden assistant, and for obvious reasons he's in on the code. I prefer to do my routines as gimmickless/prepless as possible, but sometimes it's more just more efficient that way or the effect is just that much greater.

I would think that judging by this title, that the use of gimmicks is irrelivant. What it should be about is where on the continuim you sit in terms of how you explain what you did. That continuim starts at scientific exposure TO no explanation, but awknowldgement that it's trickery TO outright lying and saying you have powers.

 

[trexdude]

The only thing I ever tell and or ask my audience after a performance is if they enjoyed it and if they would like to see something else. Often I ask if they enjoyed it if they are open mouthed and speechless. But regardless I honestly think that doing either (saying you have powers or saying you are doing a trick) is not my cup of tea. I say I do Illusions (i saw somebody else here in the forums say that also, something about tricks, prostitutes and cocaine?). If they want to see an illusion I perform one. Great, was it a trick? sweet. Was it powers? awesome. What I am doing does not matter as long as my audience enjoys it. If they believe it is a trick, then they may respect my sleight of hand. If they believe I have powers, good for them, I never made such a claim. Let them believe what they want. If my performance is good I should not need to explain myself. I would say it is a problem if I come in CLAIMING I have powers. If you stay away from either thing, tricks or powers (hence me saying it is an illusion) they will make of it what they will. I do not take advantage of anyone. I am there to entertain. If that means laughter then sweet, but if it means amazement then sweet too. If I'm performing and make a fish appear, maybe I could downplay it saying that my fish's name is Edward or something, making him slightly mundane. But hey, my illusion was there for them to have a reaction, to see something interesting/amazing/entertaining, for us to communicate. I firmly believe this is the most important thing there is. Forget about me having powers, what good is that? Doesn't it feel better for the audience when THEY feel like THEY have powers when you do tricks involving them? Again, I think the aim of your thread is a very good one. This is just my opinion. Claim nothing, be ready to entertain and let them react as they will... and simply have them enjoy themselves.


Juan.

Enought said. I totally agree with Gatitoxxx in that I never claim that I myself have powers. No reason to. Let the audience choose to believe what every they believe. I am not one to suck the fun out of audience members wondering if what I did was real.

 

[DeckCheck]

I prefer to let people know its all slight of hand. This is because people know that there is no such thing as magic so if i try to say i am really magic then they try to prove me wrong, but if i say its all slight of hand they think it is well better because i have managed to trick them rite in front of their eyes and they find it to be more skillful cause i had to do moves that they couldn't comprehend.

 

[ace18]

I prefer to let people know its all slight of hand. This is because people know that there is no such thing as magic so if i try to say i am really magic then they try to prove me wrong,

See, there is the problem, DO NOT TELL THEM YOU DO "MAGIC".

Let them put the peices together themselves.

 

[Proximo]

I don't do Magic at all.

Everything I do is an experiment and they are involved in it. As for the explanation in their eyes. I leave that up to them.

The Prestige had a great quote.

“The audience knows the truth: the world is simple. It's miserable, solid all the way through. But if you could fool them, even for a second, then you can make them wonder, and then you... then you got to see something really special... you really don't know?... it was... it was the look on their faces...”