The main problem with learning from guys on the internet is that a good majority of those people on youtube have no idea how to properly perform the moves they are teaching. I'm talking about things like angles, timing, misdirection, and proper technique. If you were to see those guys go out and try to perform effects that require those moves. I am 100% sure they would get caught and busted and go back to trying to get their youtube credit for teaching things. If you really want to learn something, then learn it properly from somebody who actually knows what they are doing.
Difference between revealing and teaching?
- Thread starter SportsMagician54
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I don't know it does seem weird, and the bottom line for you I guess is, if you pay for it and the credit is due where it is due it is teaching?
I don't know, so that means that only the people with money to spend can learn magic? I know what you said about inter-library lending but this is the first time I heard about it ( but thank you for mentioning it because I will use it), and unlike you who had a mentor teenagers can't really find mentors that was taught by Dai Vernon like how you have one. Teenagers go to school, and some of them are discouraged by their parents when they are doing magic, unless you live in a city there is no magic shop for them to just wonder around so to find a beginning teaching source there is only one thing internet, and there are people who takes advantage of these kids but some of them leads them more better than doing nothing would. I guess to some people YouTube is a temporary mentor, one that you have to be with unless you quit the art or you are in the business long enough to get a great mentor.
I don't know, so that means that only the people with money to spend can learn magic? I know what you said about inter-library lending but this is the first time I heard about it ( but thank you for mentioning it because I will use it), and unlike you who had a mentor teenagers can't really find mentors that was taught by Dai Vernon like how you have one. Teenagers go to school, and some of them are discouraged by their parents when they are doing magic, unless you live in a city there is no magic shop for them to just wonder around so to find a beginning teaching source there is only one thing internet, and there are people who takes advantage of these kids but some of them leads them more better than doing nothing would. I guess to some people YouTube is a temporary mentor, one that you have to be with unless you quit the art or you are in the business long enough to get a great mentor.
I started magic when I was 15 years old. I was a teenager. It was total chance I met my mentor. Up until that time all the magic I ever saw was Henning and Copperfield on TV or illusion shows at school in the 80's. It wasn;t my thing. I wanted to do stuff like I read in a DragonLance book. My mentor happened to come into the nightclub my parents owned looking to get in as a strolling magician. For the first time I saw what I read in the book happening right in front of me. I just didn't learn from him and books. I also learned from attending IBM and SAM meetings as a teenager. I was even Ring President when I was 17. Not only did learn magic as a teenage and active with the Ring, I lettered in football wrestling and track. That was on top of being All country and All State band and chorus. So the teenage thing doesn't fly with me.
If you take time to look around you will find magic clubs all over the country and world. Some are part of the IBM or SAM some are not. As for my mentor, I was pointing out that Vernon and Miller taught magic to students. Also, I'm not saying only people with money should be able to learn magic. I'm saying when you learn it from the internet for free on an open public forum it is exposure and theft.
Here are the links to the IBM and SAM where you can find local meetings and other magicians as well as their youth clubs.
http://www.magician.org/
http://magicsam.com/
Depending on the state you live in there are things like TAOM. Yes right now i'm lucky to be at the point I can buy what ever books, new and old, I want to add to my collection. I'm also lucky enough to live in a time I can find these old books and magazines dirt cheap on http://www.lybrary.com/ and http://conjuringarts.org/ . With all of this out there, there is no reason to have to learn from youtube exposure. All it takes is a little effort to look around.
That's putting it rather crudely but yes. In an over simplified version that's about right.
That's an outright and utter misconception. Of COURSE teenagers can find mentors. You just have to know where to look. Go find a local SAM or IBM ring near you and start attending these. You may not find Dai Vernon there to educate you but there are YEARS of experience and expertise in those private circles that a teenager can use and grow from. You just need to take the initiatve and look. And that requires you to get off your ass, log off the computer, turn off facebook, and be social for a change. That's not something all teens these days are willing to do, and not just teens. I see a lot of young people lacking in social skills so long as a phone or computer isn't between them and the people they are talking to.
So? What's your point? I go to work. I work a 9-5 five days a week. I attend at least two magic club meetings monthly, pay rent, pay bills, practice new material, perform older material, manage all my social media, write reviews, and take care of my private life. I've had people before in my past tell me I'd never amount to much with magic, that it was a waste of my time, and that it was only for kids. 3 national tours, several TV appearances, and thousands of shows later here I am. I'm not famous, I'm not rich, and I can't hold a candle next to some of the other names in the business, but I CAN perform and I am improving myself daily. If you're going to listen to someone else tell you what dreams you can and can't follow then bail out now. You don't got what it takes to make it. This is show business honey. This ain't everyone gets a trophy because they showed up for one class. This business will destroy you emotionally if you let it.
Youtube is a waste of your time, efforts, and talent.
On a somewhat similair note. I didn't actually find my mentor till I was in my late 20's. But, that was due to me being broke as a teenager (and not into magic till I was in my mid 20's fully) and due to the fact that I lived in the middle of nowhere at the time.
The one thing I can say now is that it's even easier to find mentors if you are willing to look. Hell, Aaron Fisher does skype lessons, and I think a few other top guys do that as well. So the "Teenagers can't find mentors" line is just a bad excuse. I can honestly say that if it wasn't for me actually deciding to put my money toward lessons rather than buying the new book or DVD each month, that I wouldn't have developed as rapidly has I have today.
If you really want to learn from Youtube. Then go ahead, you're only shooting yourself in the foot and pretty much just halting any form of growth and skill. BTW, youtube sucks when it comes to magic. It's pretty much the same reason the wire sucks now days too. Everything on Youtube is aimed at fooling a camera, which isn't worth your time or effort.
The one thing I can say now is that it's even easier to find mentors if you are willing to look. Hell, Aaron Fisher does skype lessons, and I think a few other top guys do that as well. So the "Teenagers can't find mentors" line is just a bad excuse. I can honestly say that if it wasn't for me actually deciding to put my money toward lessons rather than buying the new book or DVD each month, that I wouldn't have developed as rapidly has I have today.
If you really want to learn from Youtube. Then go ahead, you're only shooting yourself in the foot and pretty much just halting any form of growth and skill. BTW, youtube sucks when it comes to magic. It's pretty much the same reason the wire sucks now days too. Everything on Youtube is aimed at fooling a camera, which isn't worth your time or effort.
Well, I also started when I was a teenager and I lived in a country where there is a library but no magic circle or group near me my parents are immigrants and could not speak English so we weren't social at all, and they discouraged me doing magic, so even with small amount of money I did not and could not afford magic, the Arron Fisher thing costs money, so that does not work and SAM and IBM also money issues everywhere I looked was money and money, there was not much free things, of course I did spend couple of bucks on magic (secretly and it was little by little like six bucks per months) but I only did downloads because I live in canada and shipping cost is ridiculous, ( even the one bucks one deck thing here in theory 11 costed $ 12 as a minimal shipping cost and I could just get twelve bucks nine decks at Costco), I did try to look for mentor but there was no magician in my area, nor was there a magic shop, so I turned to two next best thing which was
YouTube
And working backward on a trick, see a magic trick for hundreds of time and think
So I guess that is the reason why I defend YouTube (there are lack of skills on people, and some exposures, but not all of them are hundred percent awful) if you say I did not try hard enough, maybe I did not, maybe I should have kept my six bucks per month thing and used it on mentor which does cost more than six bucks. Nonetherless I went down in a path where Internet was my only source for magic, even though now I go to a college in a city that does not have a magic shop ( they did but they closed it years before I came, which is unfortunate), there is some magicians nearby, but right now I am not as interested in magic then I was before so I am just browsing some books once in a while. So that is where I started off as, and I know that there are many people that has similar condition as me ( in a country no magic books, poor and parent discouraging magic) and. I should not have worded it as some teenagers but not all teenagers, but that is where I got my baseline from, and because of that the line between exposing and teaching is a lot loose to me than to some people as it seems.
To me magic is an expensive hobby, I do love to perform to people but even with three years of being in the business I do not have a solid repertoire, I can fool layman because even with learning it from YouTube I still read books on psychology (which my library has lots of) so I can give a nice presentation to layman, and in the end isn't that what is important as a magician? To make layman happy?
I am just going to sum it up for myself (my opinion for right now) revealing to me is showing a layman a trick that they can't do but they know how it is done so it ruins it for everybody the magician, the person who saw the exposure and the audience because the person will say it anyway, it ruins their expectation for magic because sometimes it is just 'silly little trick'. Teaching is from a person to person showing how to do a trick, although it does not have to be put your finger there type of teaching, it teaches the background, presentational style, misdirectional skill etc. and finally there is YouTube magic, which is a little bit of combination of both( this explanation is something that only I have to believe in remember) a short version (sometimes awful but other times ok) of a lesson which only teaches how to do the effect, it should not teach a trick that is copyrighted, or something that a magician created, if it does see revealing. The old sleights for example double lifts and the pass to the general audience is not ok, but usually layman don't click how to do double lifts anyway so it is more fine than it normally is. I am just going to treat it tutorial for basic sleight that is really old is ok, a magic trick that you invented or you got permission to do so is ok as long as it does not use copy righted trick or sleights. And when you perform it you should perfect it, or better don't be filming on table but instead get out and perform it, show it to outsiders, because it is much better than inside. Finally give credit where it is due.
that is my baseline for exposure or teaching, and I know that some people will object to me saying YouTube is absolutely awful and we should get rid of it and some people will point out mistakes that I made and that is absolutely fine, it is your opinion anyway.
YouTube
And working backward on a trick, see a magic trick for hundreds of time and think
So I guess that is the reason why I defend YouTube (there are lack of skills on people, and some exposures, but not all of them are hundred percent awful) if you say I did not try hard enough, maybe I did not, maybe I should have kept my six bucks per month thing and used it on mentor which does cost more than six bucks. Nonetherless I went down in a path where Internet was my only source for magic, even though now I go to a college in a city that does not have a magic shop ( they did but they closed it years before I came, which is unfortunate), there is some magicians nearby, but right now I am not as interested in magic then I was before so I am just browsing some books once in a while. So that is where I started off as, and I know that there are many people that has similar condition as me ( in a country no magic books, poor and parent discouraging magic) and. I should not have worded it as some teenagers but not all teenagers, but that is where I got my baseline from, and because of that the line between exposing and teaching is a lot loose to me than to some people as it seems.
To me magic is an expensive hobby, I do love to perform to people but even with three years of being in the business I do not have a solid repertoire, I can fool layman because even with learning it from YouTube I still read books on psychology (which my library has lots of) so I can give a nice presentation to layman, and in the end isn't that what is important as a magician? To make layman happy?
I am just going to sum it up for myself (my opinion for right now) revealing to me is showing a layman a trick that they can't do but they know how it is done so it ruins it for everybody the magician, the person who saw the exposure and the audience because the person will say it anyway, it ruins their expectation for magic because sometimes it is just 'silly little trick'. Teaching is from a person to person showing how to do a trick, although it does not have to be put your finger there type of teaching, it teaches the background, presentational style, misdirectional skill etc. and finally there is YouTube magic, which is a little bit of combination of both( this explanation is something that only I have to believe in remember) a short version (sometimes awful but other times ok) of a lesson which only teaches how to do the effect, it should not teach a trick that is copyrighted, or something that a magician created, if it does see revealing. The old sleights for example double lifts and the pass to the general audience is not ok, but usually layman don't click how to do double lifts anyway so it is more fine than it normally is. I am just going to treat it tutorial for basic sleight that is really old is ok, a magic trick that you invented or you got permission to do so is ok as long as it does not use copy righted trick or sleights. And when you perform it you should perfect it, or better don't be filming on table but instead get out and perform it, show it to outsiders, because it is much better than inside. Finally give credit where it is due.
that is my baseline for exposure or teaching, and I know that some people will object to me saying YouTube is absolutely awful and we should get rid of it and some people will point out mistakes that I made and that is absolutely fine, it is your opinion anyway.
Hi gang. This popped up on my radar, and now I feel the need to clarify a couple of misconceptions:
#1 (and most important): I am deeply, deeply flattered that so many of you were fooled by my fake hand-stab video. (you can actually see the knife tip on the back of my hand in the opening frames.) link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqZ_ANc_WiU
#2: I thought you might appreciate some direct and honest responses regarding the Scam School episode where we covered the ultramental principle. Here's a recent exchange I had on the subject (and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it):
Since writing that email, I've since learned that both the IBM and the SAM had discussions of what constitutes "teaching" and what's "exposure." As I was told, they eventually settled on needing a moment wherein the potential magician *chooses* by some action to learn the secret instead of being amazed by the trick.
Note: they didn't say "you have to pay money to be a magician." They didn't say "You have to show up at a meeting to be a magician." They said (give or take) "To be a magician, we only ask that you do some specific action to show that you understand that you're about to sacrifice wonder in exchange for becoming one of our rank."
I think that's a really good solution. It's one that rewards the desire in your heart. (Also, by this requirement, Scam School passes with flying colors.)
Hope that helps in some small way. Would be happy to discuss with anyone who thinks otherwise.
Brian
#1 (and most important): I am deeply, deeply flattered that so many of you were fooled by my fake hand-stab video. (you can actually see the knife tip on the back of my hand in the opening frames.) link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqZ_ANc_WiU
#2: I thought you might appreciate some direct and honest responses regarding the Scam School episode where we covered the ultramental principle. Here's a recent exchange I had on the subject (and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it):
[/INDENT]
Since writing that email, I've since learned that both the IBM and the SAM had discussions of what constitutes "teaching" and what's "exposure." As I was told, they eventually settled on needing a moment wherein the potential magician *chooses* by some action to learn the secret instead of being amazed by the trick.
Note: they didn't say "you have to pay money to be a magician." They didn't say "You have to show up at a meeting to be a magician." They said (give or take) "To be a magician, we only ask that you do some specific action to show that you understand that you're about to sacrifice wonder in exchange for becoming one of our rank."
I think that's a really good solution. It's one that rewards the desire in your heart. (Also, by this requirement, Scam School passes with flying colors.)
Hope that helps in some small way. Would be happy to discuss with anyone who thinks otherwise.
Brian
Give that man a cookie! He's absolutely correct and this is the real issue.
I'm watching this thread roll in circles so I had to chime in when I saw that sentence for it is the real problem; it's what gave us the Snowden situation and that of others that have published material that's NOT THEIRS TO RELEASE and why such idiots get the public support they get. . . and yes, exposing National Secrets is the same exact thing as exposing Magic secrets, just more dangerous because it effects the lives of millions at times, which goes back to the issue of respect, ethics and morality -- INTEGRITY.
So long as we are dealing with people and a youth culture that supports this myth that all things need to be free and accessible, we're going to have these problems in that so many believe if they can pry up the nail, it's ok . . . if they can hack it, break the security codes, etc. it's ok in their mind, to do with it as they please.
So this is a Mind Set that many have and it exist because of a society of spoilt children and those that have been shown that crime pays a lot better than honesty (whoever said crime don't pay was a fool).
Books in a library is not exposure, even specialty books in a retail shop is not exposure in that they cater to the person that wants that information and is willing to pay for it in some manner. When it comes to libraries. . . had it not been from the public library a lot of people from my generation would have never gotten into magic; it was their only source for information because the nearest brick & mortar shops where an hour or more away by car. If you had to rely on mail order it would take weeks to months before the order got filled and even then, you weren't able to look things over before making the investment.
Here's a bit of commercial exposure for you. . . both, the Svengali & Stripper deck pitch expose the working of the gaff and yet I've sold thousands of either deck over the years and I'm not a major pitchman on that front. So where's the line?
Fact is if we were to stop crying about the spilt milk it would probably become a very negligible issue in that a lot of these jerks tip things on Youtube for the sake of ego and getting some kind of twisted "revenge" on magicians. They literally hate magic and magicians and they know how to pull our strings. Until we start ignoring them they are going to do this over and over again. Sure, there are other reasons, mostly due to how our current society sees life more than anything else.
Brian the library analogy for Youtube is not a solid one. If you go to the library to do research on a local bakery, you do not have the librarian coming up with three different books on how to bake the cake that made the bakery famous. You go to youtube and to show a coworker that cool trick you saw Eric Jones do, and there are five videos right next to it showing how it is done. You check out that one book on a bakery and that's the end. Look up one magic video on youtube and they keep saying here watch these video, where most of them are how to videos not performances.
Also there are a good number of people who couldn't care less about sacrificing the wounder. To them magic is a puzzle that they need to solve. There are also a good number of people who have no self-esteem and will use youtube and the internet to find out how something is done just to try and bust you out to make themselves feel better because the attention wasn't on them for five seconds.
Also there are a good number of people who couldn't care less about sacrificing the wounder. To them magic is a puzzle that they need to solve. There are also a good number of people who have no self-esteem and will use youtube and the internet to find out how something is done just to try and bust you out to make themselves feel better because the attention wasn't on them for five seconds.
Great points and discussion overall. I wanted to pose an additional question and that being: why are YouTube personality such as howtodisturbreality and others not viewed as respectable. I Understand that they reveal tricks and such, but YouTube is one of the few forms of spreading information or an art. Would a laymen ever get into magic if they had to pay to learn simple things such as a double lift? I feel that the only tricks that shouldn't be revealed are tricks that are produced and sold through a company, that was created by a specific artist.
Jerek does expose commercial effects on his website. Not only that he uses famous magician names in the title of his videos.
So you feel that if it is in a book and not sold as a download or as a single effect by some company such as P3, T11, Vanishing Inc ect ect, then it is okay to put out on youtube? That things in books that someone still owns the publishing rights to are fair game. Both are just as bad.
Now why would a layperson want to know how an effect is done? There are two reasons. One they would like to be a magician themselves and took time to go to a book store or the library and started learning some things and then found a local magician to ask about learning. The other is they just want to know how it is done so they can either try to bust the magician or they can;t stand not knowing how things are done.
From the IBM...
Article II
MISSION AND OBJECTIVES
Sec. 1.The mission of the organization shall be to promote fellowship and the advancement of
magic as an entertainment art through premier publications, quality conventions, an international
structure and progressive leadership.
Sec. 2.To accomplish this mission, the following objectives are established:
A. Organize and associate those interested in the art of magic and its advancement
without regard to race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;
B. Advance the ethics of the magical fraternity by adopting a Code of Ethics;
C. Publish a magazine;
D. Hold an Annual Convention;
E. Encourage humane treatment of animals used in magic presentations;
F. Oppose public exposures of the principles of the art of magic; and
G. Protect the magic creations of authors and inventors.
From the SAM...
All members of the Society of American Magicians agree to:
1. Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion.
2. Display ethical behavior in the presentation of magic to the public and in our conduct as magicians, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another magician either through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of another?s creation.
3. Recognize and respect for rights of the creators, inventors, authors, and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effects and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations.
4. Discourage false or misleading statements in the advertising of effects, and literature, merchandise or actions pertaining to the magical arts.
5. Discourage advertisement in magic publications for any magical apparatus, effect, literature or other materials for which the advertiser does not have commercial rights.
6. Promote the humane treatment and care of livestock used in magical performances.
The Magic Circle, the Magic Castle, TAOM, and well pretty much every magic club in the world has the same rules. Part of being a magician is keeping the secrete not sharing it with the world on youtube.
Excellent point! Agreed that some effects published in books should be copyrighted and patented, but the point still remains that nobody would have ever gotten into this form of art without being exposed to it one way or another. It just happens to be that this is the age of technology. Another thing, so what if the person knowns the secret to your effect. This is one thing that ive noticed has been a huge flaw in most magicians. (That being said, before i go on i would like to acknowledged that I am only 15 years old and nowhere near have the same credentials, experience, and skill as some of the people on this forum.) I honestly don't care if someone is able to discover the secret to my effect, because my main goal isn't to make a fool or confuse the spectator, its to provide them with an entertaining time. That being said, this leads to most magicians not having the right "social dynamics." I personally think that's why collins key became so popular, his ability to connect with the audience. No he isn't the most skilled magician and a lot of people think that his physical appearance got him where he is today, but so what. If you have the advantage use it. Therefore, all i was really trying to say, is that the "rules" of magic today are truly holding back magic from flourishing into the mainstream.
No not some, all magic in books and magazines are copyrighted. That is why it has the copy right in the front of the book.
There is a difference between going to the library or tracking down a local magician and learning magic from exposure on youtube. One if the proper way the other is a form of theft on many different levels.
I have been making a living performing magic longer than you have been alive. It is not entertaining as a layperson to see a magic show when you know how it is done. They are there for the wonderment and the amazement. It's not very magical if you know how the magician gets the coins to travel or how the rubber bands passes through each other. I had one man who wanted to learn magic. He learned how one thing was done and said it wasn't worth knowing. Wasn't worth the loss of wonderment to watch a magician work.
Collin Keys got where he did because of his looks. So in 10 years or so when he gained 50lbs and starts loosing his hair and is still lacking in talent then he won't be as popular. That is even if he makes it ten years with out learning some chops. Joshua Jay had the looks and the talent. He could have been with out the looks and still made it just on his skill. I'm fat and I'm a skilled magician. Look at many of the working pros out there. They are not all eye candy, but they all have skill and huge personalities.
Finally, It's not the "rules" of magic holding it back. It is the kids who run up to people on the street thinking they are street magicians. It is the flood of kids who only work in cards. I'm not sure where you live but where I am, magic is alive and well. Where I lived before in the middle of nowhere West Virginia there were a few working pros. When the new card kids learn that magic is more than a deck of cards they will see magic is still going strong. When they can do an hour long show and never touch a deck of cards they still see magic is just fine. When they get off the internet and attend Magi Fest or Magic Live TAOM. When the log off of youtube and head to a local Ring or Assembly meeting. When they head to someplace like the Magic Castle or a local diner theater where people pay to see magic, will they see magic is doing just fine.
Revelant to this discussion:
https://plus.google.com/100984061622671020032/posts/3ncmupPoQVC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uQdaUSUyHs
https://plus.google.com/100984061622671020032/posts/3ncmupPoQVC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uQdaUSUyHs
Brian again the library analogy for Youtube is not a solid one. If you go to the library to do research on a local bakery, you do not have the librarian coming up with three different books on how to bake the cake that made the bakery famous. You go to youtube and to show a coworker that cool trick you saw Eric Jones do, and there are five videos right next to it showing how it is done. You check out that one book on a bakery and that's the end. Look up one magic video on youtube and they keep saying here watch these video, where most of them are how to videos not performances.
Also there are a good number of people who couldn't care less about sacrificing the wounder. To them magic is a puzzle that they need to solve. There are also a good number of people who have no self-esteem and will use youtube and the internet to find out how something is done just to try and bust you out to make themselves feel better because the attention wasn't on them for five seconds.
I got into magic around the time of the Easy to Master stuff. I do not remember hearing at magi fest or at ring meetings that it was cheapening magic. On the other hand I hear people from David Roth down to the guys at the local rings talking about how bad youtube is.
Also there are a good number of people who couldn't care less about sacrificing the wounder. To them magic is a puzzle that they need to solve. There are also a good number of people who have no self-esteem and will use youtube and the internet to find out how something is done just to try and bust you out to make themselves feel better because the attention wasn't on them for five seconds.
I got into magic around the time of the Easy to Master stuff. I do not remember hearing at magi fest or at ring meetings that it was cheapening magic. On the other hand I hear people from David Roth down to the guys at the local rings talking about how bad youtube is.
Comparing the Michael Ammar Easy to Master series to youtube is pretty stupid. The Easy to Master series is actually taught by somebody who knows what they are doing and has been the best lecturer around for years for a reason.
Youtube magic is just taught by pre-teens and teenagers who couldn't perform to save their life and can't do any of the "magic" they teach correctly. It's like comparing an idiot trying to teach you to make a grilled cheese sandwich, to Gordon Ramsay teaching you how to properly make a Monte Crisco.
Youtube magic is just taught by pre-teens and teenagers who couldn't perform to save their life and can't do any of the "magic" they teach correctly. It's like comparing an idiot trying to teach you to make a grilled cheese sandwich, to Gordon Ramsay teaching you how to properly make a Monte Crisco.