A Newbie's Experience

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by descartes, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me.

    Before I get to the main story I must admit to being a total newbie. I became interested in magic in general and card magic in particular less than two months back.

    I saw a video on youtube showing Joshua Jay demonstrating a 10 card poker deal. The spectator makes choices all the way and the magician doesn't appear to be doing any sleights. My reaction was that this would be a cool thing to demonstrate to a few friends of mine (we happen to be poker enthusiasts). I also wanted to test myself and come up with a simple handling that would be self working.

    Now I don't know exactly how Joshua Jay's trick works, but I came up with my own method after thinking about it for a while and fiddling with a deck of cards. It has two phases. In the first, the spectator makes blind choices all the way (he never sees the faces of any of the cards he chooses). The magician ends up with a hand that just beats the spec. In the second phase, the spec chooses cards blindly until he and the magician have 3 cards in hand. Then the magician turns the last 4 cards face up and allows him to choose two which help him the most. The magician wins more convincingly this time.

    I performed this for a few of my friends and the effect by itself worked out ok. There were a couple of problems though. My friends immediately set about working out the method!! These are highly analytical and intelligent guys and they immediately saw this as a puzzle to be solved.

    I tried to keep my patter and performance casual and short so that I would not give it away but it wasn't helpful. In ten minutes, they had discussed all possibilities, logically sifted through them and they were all smiles when they came up with an explanation where they pretty much nailed it.

    Now is the part where I ask you guys for some feedback.

    1) I seriously think that my working of this trick is something that could fool most people. I was surprised that my friends figured it out so fast. I have a feeling that I should stay away from demonstrating self working tricks to people who are highly analytical. For example, I don't think I'll show them anything involving the key card principle. Do any of you agree? If not, how do you make self working tricks seem "magical"?

    2) Are there any suggestions for tricks that would be easy for a newbie and would improve his confidence? I don't want my friends to figure out the next trick I perform for them.

    3) What do you do if audience members figure out a particular trick? Do you move on to another one or do something else to distract them?
     
  2. first off welcome to theory11, and secondly you just need to keep performing and working on audience management. that will help you with your problems. so just keep performing and practicing and everything should be just fine. also make sure you know the trick flawlessly before you perform.
     
  3. Obviously, there are going to be a number of ways to go about this. There have been past threads going over this type of situation I think. In my opinion, you just have to play it cool. You can say something like "Good eye there! Here lets try another one." Or you could say something such as "Interesting thought, but mines a bit different" I guess it just depends on the situation.
     
  4. or you can reply to the statement " oh i know how you did that" with "so do i" and then gasp and run away. just kidding.
     
  5. Genius. I might use this.
     
  6. 1) I agree with the key card thing.. but to make a selfworking trick look magical
    it take alot of time and practice.

    2) stigmata. noting else :p


    3) when someone claims he knows how I did it
    i give them the deck and ask them to show us how good he is.
    they try.. they fail//
     
  7. Just a small clarification. They didn't just say "OMG!! I know how you did that!!". These guys are much more methodical. They took 10 minutes discussing various things I could have done and how I could have arranged the cards and how I could have forced the cards. After they looked at all possibilities, they came back and gave me an explanation.

    Another thing, they were thinking of ways to sabotage the trick (although their methods would not have worked). For example, they became suspicious when I exposed the last four cards and even thought that they could make the trick fail by not taking the two cards that helped them the most.
     
  8. 1)Well, there are all kinds of people out there, badly for you, you have meeted the methodical type, I know, I have meeted them too, the problem with this guys is that althought the enjoy the performance, all the tricks to them are like challenges that must be solved, is their nature, this can be solved with good sleight of hand and tricks that defy normal explanation, althought the trick that you performed is very nice (props to you for making you own routine;)) it kinda has a logical explanation for them... that's why I reccomend the following tricks....

    2) tricks easy for a newbie? well just practice a lot and I mean card fundamentals, like shuffling, you double lifts, even your pass (its looks amasing when performed right) but for what I have experience a nice triumph routine can blow them away trust me on that or maybe a card transposition... your choise :D

    3) well you could try doing what the guys above me have said, OR, you can find other ways to execute the desired effect, there are ton of good sleights out there that can substitute other sleights, do they know how you did it? do it differently.

    Practice, and welcome to the forums mate!
     
  9. I have two seperate replies to your post, depending completely on how you would answer the question... "Do you want to be a magician? Or do you want to be someone with a few fun party gags/ tricks?"

    I will start with the simple answer, as if you said yes to the latter...

    Answer: The 10 card poker deal is an extremely simple idea, and anyone with poker experience should be able to figure it out within 10 minutes. Now, if the spectator goes home after you demonstrate the trick, get their own cards, and try to work it out... well, there is nothing you can do about that. However, if the spectator asks to see the 10 cards and says, "give me time to work this out..." right after you finish performing it... well, then its your own fault if they figure it out right then and there.

    That being said however... the more you perform it, the more you will realize that there is a LOT you can do as the performer, to control what everyone is thinking and how everyone reacts when doing the trick. You will have to learn this on your own through experience.

    As for more "easy to do tricks, with simple sleights, that blow people away, and hard to figure out..." the answer is. "The invisible deck." Research it, buy it, practice it... reap the glory. It is that simple and that powerful. However, PLEASE, seak some advice on performance tips BEFORE showing ANYONE (this is if you decide to buy it.)


    ANSWER #2: If you are actually wanting to become a magician, you have made a great choice, but to be honest, an extremely challenging, time consuming, often frustrating, etc... choice. Mainly because, the best advice anyone will give you is, "Do not perform anything at all, for a very long time, until you have mastered... yes... mastered the techniques and performance aspects in and out of the trick." To you this would mean, stop performing for your friends altogether until you are ready (more than two weeks btw).

    Choose wisely =)
     
  10. I think I can help with your problem with this effect...

    I know Joshua Jay's 10 card poker deal and without giving away the method I may be able to help.The first mistake (and when I say mistake I mean area ya need to work on)you made was performing for poker players. Way too methodical. If they are good players they read people way to well. As far as the trick was considered. If it's the same method as his(which I think you nailed it being a poker player and all) Repeating the second phase with the same cards can give really a methodical laymen a chance to catch up. By stacking the deck with your set up twice you can do the first phase with the the 1st 10 cards then the 2nd phase you can deal your next set up of 10 cards.
    Welcome to the art by the way. Start with the basics. You can download Expert at the Card table by S.W Erdnase for free. Great place to start.
     
  11. I think I can help with your problem with this effect...

    I know Joshua Jay's 10 card poker deal and without giving away the method I may be able to help.The first mistake (and when I say mistake I mean area ya need to work on)you made was performing for poker players. Way too methodical. If they are good players they read people way to well. As far as the trick was considered. If it's the same method as his(which I think you nailed it being a poker player and all) Repeating the second phase with the same cards can give really a methodical laymen a chance to catch up. By stacking the deck with your set up twice you can do the first phase with the the 1st 10 cards then the 2nd phase you can deal your next set up of 10 cards.
    Welcome to the art by the way. Start with the basics. You can download Expert at the Card table by S.W Erdnase for free. Great place to start.
     
  12. Alright, well, let's see about some answers...

    1. Honestly, it's all about how you present self-working effects - and that's why self-working doesn't necessarily mean easy. For example, the fact that you've constructed the trick yourself makes me wonder if you've done enough to hide the self-working process. For example, one of my strongest effects uses a key card - but no-one ever realises I'm using a key card, because I never cut the deck. There are always ways to disguise the selfworking method, whether it be a stack or anything else. As far as making such effects more magical - again, it's all in how you present it. Analytical people are hard to perform for; it takes something very unique and special to make them forget their nature; this is where you need to stray from the stereotypical magician, and away from the thousands of kiddies performing the Trilogy exactly the way it's taught.

    2. You need to learn from a good base - start with Royal Road to Card Magic or Card College. They'll provide you with the best foundation you could probably have to learn magic. After that - it's just about practicing the moves (don't worry, they start out simple) until you can perfect them under performance conditions.

    3. Most importantly, I take note of it, and later, look at what I could've done better - how did they realise the method, and what can I do better to prevent this next time? It's hard to say for your particular effect, but I'm sure there was something in its construction (for an excellent book on creating magic, Darwin Ortiz's Designing Miracles is excellent). Real time though - honestly, I don't know that there's much you can do. It kinda depends on your situation - just don't screw up the next trick if you keep performing. Ultimately, every now and then you'll screw something up - don't worry about it too much, just try and make sure you take advantage of your mistake. But someone figuring something out once in a while won't kill you.
     
  13. Check My Video On This Site Called "The Pulse card" There I demonstate how a great preformance can get you so much impact utilyzing the "Key Card" Princaple.
    And no i didn't teach that trick, you will see what i mean at the end of the vid.

    Here Is The Link http://media.theory11.com/1669-The-Pulse-Card-
     
  14. I agree partly on the self-working tricks for those kind's of people, but it is possible, if you work hard on patter and how you perform.

    Something good to start out with and if you're into cards is The Royal Road To Card Magic and Card College, or you can pick up a few random Dvd's that you like, and just work on those for awhile, just make sure you read the description and be careful of the skill set, it's good to pick something slightly ahead of yourself, because you can get a head start, but nothing to difficult like...I don't even know, but I heard something called the Anti-Faro is ridiculously difficult!

    If an audience member figures it out, then there are a few things you can do, I'm probably missing a few that I've done, but I'll list the main things. One thing would be to ignore them if they're incorrect or kinda point out the holes in their theory. Another thing would be to move on and just ignore it, there's one line that Justin Miller uses that I do not, but I thought it was pretty good.

    It goes, "Did you see where it went?" and the spectator says yes and he says "You did? You have better eye sight then I do" and then followed by a chuckle and keeps on going, I'm sure you could adjust it if you wanted to!
     
  15. Thanks a lot guys

    Thanks a lot for the replies. I'll just answer a few things.

    To answer caseace79's point, I did not use the same cards for the two phases. I had twenty cards arranged, used the first 10 for the first phase and used the next 10 for the 2nd phase.

    Many of you have asked me to get RRTCM and I already have it. I'm practicing steadily and I hope to get a few basic sleights down in a couple of months time. Thanks for the recommendation again!

    I'm really curious about Praetoritevong's key card trick that doesn't involve cutting the deck. Is it an idea I can find in RRTCM or do I need to look elsewhere?
     

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