An essay on the Classic Pass

Jul 13, 2009
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And once again we are back on talking about the 'Pass' as just a control rather than about all its other uses. I just hope Randy and everyone else who use the 'Side Steal' as a control realize that they in fact take the card out of the deck to put it back in. To me, that sounds like a very unneccessary action and one action too many.

Once again you fail to realize that a side steal is much much much more invisible under fire instead of a pass. You want to know why? In a Side steal only one card or several cards are in motion instead of a block of cards. Why climb a mountain when you can just walk around it? Why move a massive amount of cards just to control one card? Don't please I beg you, don't pitch that the classic pass is meant to undo a fair cut, it isn't relevant to this conversation on the side steal vs pass.

Hmmm.. yes and no. I'd say that the original handlings are getting rusty due to the reasons I mentioned in my first post. The core concept obviously still is the same (or else it wouldn't be a 'Pass' anymore), but I adjusted it to a more modern kind of magic rather than keeping them the classic way. Therefore, I wouldn't call what I do the 'Classic Pass'.


Hmmm.. yes and no. I'd say that the original handlings are getting rusty due to the reasons I mentioned in my first post. The core concept obviously still is the same (or else it wouldn't be a 'Pass' anymore), but I adjusted it to a more modern kind of magic rather than keeping them the classic way. Therefore, I wouldn't call what I do the 'Classic Pass'.

Your original post was a dud for the most part. Also there is that biased again. If I created a variation of a mocha frappucino in which you only add a pump of raspberry syrup to it and call the creation a Jimmy Hendrix, it's still a mocha frappucino with a pump of raspberry syrup.

Now wouldn't you be pissed if Starbucks sold a mocha frappucino for 4.50 USD and sold a Jimmy Hendrix for 7.50? Probably? But I bet you'd be pissed if I told you that you could buy the Mocha frappucino base at 4.50 and add one pump of any syrup you want for only fifty scents more. That is basically what I feel about all those products that teach variations of the classic passes for an incredibly inflated price! Save your variations for the increasingly rare to find, multiple effect dvds or, god forbid, books!


Anyway Mark, you are entitled to your opinion and instead of repeating myself over and over again onto why you are wrong in your view on the way spectators think and why the classic pass isn't an outdated anything I am just going to end my conversation with this last paragraph.

Spectators over time have not changed at all. People say that modern people have changed from the people who were living in the 1800s. That isn't true at all. What were once called snake oil salesman are now called homeopathic doctors. We still have charlatans and psychics and people who continue to fall into their traps of false statements and fortune cookie explanations on life. YOU may say that our spectators are changing, what I say and have observed is nothing has changed at all.
 
Jan 1, 2009
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Back in Time
The more I see Mark post, the more I realize he is pretty much just spouting off BS to over hype the pass and thus try to sell his "new and improved" variation on the sleight. Which is pretty much going to be extremely redundant and clumsy.
 
Jan 12, 2010
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Now that's a looong post. Please allow me to reply to all parts of the post I feel like it's necessary to reply to.

First of all your description on modern society amused me to no end. Out of all the technological advances our society has made over the last sentinel you chose tomatoes and cucumber are fruits…Furthering, you say this statement, "Why would we be so fascinated with something called the 'Classic Pass' and its classic handling?" WHAT??? Sure at first glance Classic may be a turn off to most beginner magicians who don't know their left foot from the right foot, but as they continue on their either long lived journey or very short lived journey through magic, they'll soon discover the classic pass and it's importance for card magicians. It is the foundation of most "Modern day" passes and should be learned and mastered before moving onto more advanced techniques.
You obviously took the statement on the modern society way too serious. It was meant for amusement purposes only so I guess you misunderstood as it indeed amused you and thus worked out well.

The technique behind the 'Classic Pass' may not be as advanced as a more practical pass, but it's definitely more difficult to master it and to perform well. As I said numerous times, a more practical pass is actually easier than the 'Classic Pass' its handlings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think beginners should start off by learning easier magic and sleights before heading to more advanced ones. In this case, the 'Classic Pass' is the more advanced one.

As both you and I stated, the 'Classic Pass' indeed is the foundation of all the "Modern day" passes. But that doesn't mean that it's the most practical of all passes though. I bet that once someone has learned the easier, practical pass or even just some of its key techniques, they will only use the 'Classic Pass' and its handlings for finger training purposes. That is, if they didn't already fully mastered it and adjusted it to their own style like Toby here.

Nope I don't agree with this one either. First of all, what do you mean by "panoramic view towards our art."? Secondly, spectators aren't becoming more hand burners now a day, magicians are becoming in your face magic douches. Pardon my wording. Magicians (talking about most peer and beginner magicians and street magic special wannabes) have no idea how to properly present a magic trick. Instead they either passively or bluntly state with their body language and verbiage taunt spectators to try and figure out what the magician is doing. That is no bueno.
By 'panoramic view' I mean that spectators used to have more overview on magic performances. This is changing because magicians started to perform closer up, and also because spectators getting more aware and focussed. Yes, sure there are magicians that do not know how to present tricks, but that's not quite what I am talking about.

Follows what exactly?
The shift as explained in the paragraphe above.

Close-up magicians can and do get away with performing the classic pass in it's classical handling still. I do it twice in an acr/card/deck to pocket and never been caught. Though admittedly I only perform it every so often since I now consider myself a hobbiest magician and magic enthusiast of 11+ years.
I never said magicians couldn't get away with it, but it just seems to be over the top to me. I myself got the 'Classic Pass' and its performance down to a level in which no spectator would be able to catch it. As soon as I started performing it, beginner magicians started to ask me for help. This is when I figured that the 'Classic Pass' wasn't quite as practical as it could've been, and that it involved a lot of unnecessary practicing to have it mastered. And thus, I started to get rid of all the errors to end up with a solid, practical, way-less-practice-and-speed-requiring pass. This has helped quite some beginners to make their pass performance-ready faster. Not to talk good on it, but just stating the truth and the reason for why I say what I say.

You know what the key difference between the two passes are? One was meant for stage, the other was meant for closeup. The Charlier pass is a one handed shift or cut and always was. To compare a utility move of the classic pass to a move that was originally meant to be covered by the turning of your back to the audience is silly. The classic pass is not a show off move, but a stealth move and shouldn't even be made aware of in a performing environment and has nothing to do with cardistry or flourishing! If that was the case I'd of submitted a video of me performing the many variation of passes I know, montaged together with dana hocking music going in the background to one of the SNC flourishing videos!
Okay, perhaps this wasn't the right example as the 'Charlier Pass' was indeed used as a flourish way back in the end of the 19th century already. I am pretty sure that Charlier didn't originally create the cut as a flourish though, but as a gambling sleight instead. If you would actually do it as an invisible sleight rather than as a visible cut, you will see that it could easily be used as a very practical, invisible sleight. Whenever I feel like it, I actually use it as an invisible pass which hasn't failed once.

Now this I really have to raise an eyebrow at. The fact that you may be coming out with another variation of pass as a means to make money makes you BIASED. You could be saying all of the above statements as a way to HYPE YOUR PRODUCT. You should understand my skepticism and why I am pushing my points.

Also what the **** is being exposed?????
I bet you my eyebrow raised more than yours when reading your assumptions. I did not come out with a variation on the 'Pass' for money, and there isn't even a whole lot of money in it. We will release it to those who want to be helped. As I'm a human being, I am bounded to restrictions. If I would've had all the time in the world, I would be continuously performing to keep away hunger or want, and teaching people for the appreciation and not for any money. I think you totally missed the "hook up with me on any instant messenger or on Tinychat" statement. Or you just don't know that those platforms are free to use and don't make me any money.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who sees the exposure. It's up to any individual to say whether it's appropriate or inappropriate exposure, but it is exposure nonetheless.

What can you use the pass for other then a card control. I don't mean as a "single card" control, but a control of cards or block of cards? Also I am beginning to believe you are not much older then me and i am 21 and still consider myself a "kid" compared to the humble elders of magic.
I am very sorry to see that you don't know other uses of a 'Pass' rather than it being a card control. I mentioned some of the uses (not quite all of them) in a previous post in this thread.

I am indeed not much older than you as I'm 21, and according to your profile you aren't even 21 yourself. No s***, Sherlock?

Once again you fail to realize that a side steal is much much much more invisible under fire instead of a pass. You want to know why? In a Side steal only one card or several cards are in motion instead of a block of cards. Why climb a mountain when you can just walk around it? Why move a massive amount of cards just to control one card? Don't please I beg you, don't pitch that the classic pass is meant to undo a fair cut, it isn't relevant to this conversation on the side steal vs pass.
You may as well just ignore the 'Pass' completely then and learn other sleights to do the same things. I'm pretty sure that a moment ago you said that you do the 'Classic Pass' yourself, but now you don't see any of its advantages? A 'Pass' has seriously so many more uses and advantages than you know about. Please let that be the last time that I have to say that in here.

Spectators over time have not changed at all. People say that modern people have changed from the people who were living in the 1800s. That isn't true at all. What were once called snake oil salesman are now called homeopathic doctors. We still have charlatans and psychics and people who continue to fall into their traps of false statements and fortune cookie explanations on life. YOU may say that our spectators are changing, what I say and have observed is nothing has changed at all.
In a single week, we take more information to ourselves than someone did in the Middle Ages in a whole life. May there be someday that you will actually understand what I am talking about.

The more I see Mark post, the more I realize he is pretty much just spouting off BS to over hype the pass and thus try to sell his "new and improved" variation on the sleight. Which is pretty much going to be extremely redundant and clumsy.
Ouch! Hahahaha!
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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Belgrade, Serbia
Man, you guys have long posts :)

I actually talked with Mark on Skype and we shared ideas for classic pass, and I can say one thing, his pass looks insane, from all angles. When it comes to pass, he knows what he's talking about. I know that this is a forum, and the point of a forum is to discuss, but I think that this discussion can go on forever. I think it's time to get metaphorical measuring tape, and take out our metaphorical penises, and measure who has bigger. In other words, I am convinced that Mark knows what he is talking about because his pass is amazing. Mark has also seen my pass, so he knows that I am not some kid behind a screen who is throwing out BS about a pass even though he has no idea how to do one.
Also I don't think that Mark has any intentions of promoting his pass that is going to be released. If he did, he would charge me for it last night.
Why am I saying all this? It's because there are a lot of members here who are "smart" in their posts, they know everything, they act almighty, but then a video of them "performing" comes up, and you can see that they pretty much suck. I will not mention who those members are, but there are some in this thread also. So if you want to make a statement or make a claim, please show us that you can actually do what you are talking about.
Now, that is not necessary all the times, in fact that is rarely necessary, but I think that in this case, it is necessary.
I will probably end up being hypocrite since I haven't posted a video of me doing the pass, but Mark has seen it, and I will be glad to show it to anyone over Skype (the pass, not the penis) because I hate making videos.

Cheers!
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Now that's a looong post. Please allow me to reply to all parts of the post I feel like it's necessary to reply to.

You didn't have to reply, I was just pointing out the things I disagree with you. Now my better half is nagging me to put an end to the shenanigans. But my other half has a gun pointed to the other's head forcing it to allow another lengthy post to be crapped out of my hole.


You obviously took the statement on the modern society way too serious. It was meant for amusement purposes only so I guess you misunderstood as it indeed amused you and thus worked out well.

OHHH it was supposed to be amusing, guess what, it fell flat.

The technique behind the 'Classic Pass' may not be as advanced as a more practical pass, but it's definitely more difficult to master it and to perform well. As I said numerous times, a more practical pass is actually easier than the 'Classic Pass' its handling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think beginners should start off by learning easier magic and sleights before heading to more advanced ones. In this case, the 'Classic Pass' is the more advanced one.

No you are not wrong in saying beginners should start small then go big later. That wasn't the conversation at hand. What pass is more practical then the classic pass? Is any pass for that matter any harder then the all the others? I mean even a bluff pass is hard to look actually good and smooth. Yet it is a pretty simple and practical control. Besides to revisit a thought that just crossed my mind. If a beginner is taught how to do a classic pass at an early stage, it will help with finger dexterity and strength. Maybe a pass is good for a beginner, who knows its all subjective? I think I stated that point earlier in the thread.



As both you and I stated, the 'Classic Pass' indeed is the foundation of all the "Modern day" passes. But that doesn't mean that it's the most practical of all passes though. I bet that once someone has learned the easier, practical pass or even just some of its key techniques, they will only use the 'Classic Pass' and its handlings for finger training purposes. That is, if they didn't already fully mastered it and adjusted it to their own style like Toby here.

Okay so there are easier and more practical passes out there. But if you are learning a Variation of the fricken classic pass, whether you make it your own "Style" or not. You still have to learn the classic! If you polish a turd it is still a turd! To make an assumption that all magicians who have mastered the classic pass only use it for magical jack off purposes is obscured. No matter the amount of little quirks you discover that helps your classic pass, it's still the gosh darn classic pass PERIOD.


By 'panoramic view' I mean that spectators used to have more overview on magic performances. This is changing because magicians started to perform closer up, and also because spectators getting more aware and focussed. Yes, sure there are magicians that do not know how to present tricks, but that's not quite what I am talking about.

That maybe true or you haven't mastered the fine art of audience control, something I'd suggest anyone who thinks they want to perform street magic should master first. Maybe you are hanging with the wrong crowd because everyone I perform for is giggling laughing and joking back at me when I joke about them. Not burning holes in my hands.



I never said magicians couldn't get away with it, but it just seems to be over the top to me. I myself got the 'Classic Pass' and its performance down to a level in which no spectator would be able to catch it.

Congrats want a pat on the back? I'd hope your pass is pass-able in front of participants because if it wasn't I could see why you'd put the classic pass in the same category as CARDISTRY.


As soon as I started performing it, beginner magicians started to ask me for help. This is when I figured that the 'Classic Pass' wasn't quite as practical as it could've been, and that it involved a lot of unnecessary practicing to have it mastered.

Now this really doesn't sit well with me at all. if you want to be good at something you have to be willing to dedicate massive amount of time into it. That is just the way it is. If you don't want to take the time perfecting a move or sleight like the classic pass, get out of magic! You are not going to get anywhere in the field with that kind of attitude and you will be eaten alive by other magicians.

And thus, I started to get rid of all the errors to end up with a solid, practical, way-less-practice-and-speed-requiring pass. This has helped quite some beginners to make their pass performance-ready faster. Not to talk good on it, but just stating the truth and the reason for why I say what I say.

Okay so you dumbed down the classic pass….What is this world coming too? Did you ever stop to realize that a lot of magicians old and new can tell whether you are serious or not in the art of magic by your classic pass?


Okay, perhaps this wasn't the right example as the 'Charlier Pass' was indeed used as a flourish way back in the end of the 19th century already…Whenever I feel like it, I actually use it as an invisible pass which hasn't failed once.

I am not going to call you a liar, because that could be libel. Doesn't mean I am not thinking it.


I bet you my eyebrow raised more than yours when reading your assumptions.

"If you can wait a month or two for my re-release on this, or hook up with me on any instant messenger or on Tinychat, I can talk in a more detailed and exposed way about this. Personally, I would consider this thread to be exposure."

So this totally isn't a plug or hype for a product up and coming?


And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who sees the exposure. It's up to any individual to say whether it's appropriate or inappropriate exposure, but it is exposure nonetheless.

I didn't think I'd see the day when magicians couldn't openly talk about sleight of hand on a magic forum. If the discussion of the differences in passes is exposure, then I submit that the discussion of magic products is also exposure. On another note, you are openly admitting that you will teach someone a variation of the classic pass through the interwebs…don't be telling me this is exposure when you are out there going through methodology to random magicians since you are an all powerful force and all around great magician to learn the pass from.


I am very sorry to see that you don't know other uses of a 'Pass' rather than it being a card control. I mentioned some of the uses (not quite all of them) in a previous post in this thread.

You avoided answering my question, that is strike one. I'll ask again before I definitively say that you are wrong. What other things can the classic pass do that other then control a block of cards to the top or bottom?

I am indeed not much older than you as I'm 21, and according to your profile you aren't even 21 yourself. No s***, Sherlock?

Yeah and according to my profile I used to live in a forest called Azerath and that I am a werewolf roaming the world looking for stories to tell the entire world. Don't believe what you read on the internet fully. Also I am indeed 21, I have no reason to lie to a fool like yourself a nobody magician who is enjoying the freedom of anonymity.



In a single week, we take more information to ourselves than someone did in the Middle Ages in his whole life. May there be someday that you will understand what I am talking about.

Why don't you actually look up homeopathic medicine and miracle water that is being sold that cures crippling disease, when in fact said miracle water is industrial bleach. Go tell the people at the James Randi Foundation that people are smarter then back in the 1800s.


Also Toby Passive aggressiveness pisses me off, just say who you are talking about?
 
Jul 13, 2009
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I'm not passive aggressive, I'm not aggressive at all. It was all said in a nice calm voice. But if you found yourself attacked, than it maybe is you.

That is what passive aggressiveness is buddy. It is indirectly insulting or talking bad about someone without talking to said person.
"But if you found yourself attacked, than it maybe is you." Passive aggressive punk.

Besides to judge someone from videos he makes is silly. I still enjoy performing magic and I do a great job of it when in front of people. Pitty I can't have a camera on me to film it, like when I was Nexusmagic and performing on campus as Johnny Magic. But whatever, I thought this was a debate about the classic pass being relevant and not who has a better classic pass.

So like I said before, conversation is over on my end.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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That is what passive aggressiveness is buddy. It is indirectly insulting or talking bad about someone without talking to said person.
"But if you found yourself attacked, than it maybe is you." Passive aggressive punk.

Besides to judge someone from videos he makes is silly. I still enjoy performing magic and I do a great job of it when in front of people. Pitty I can't have a camera on me to film it, like when I was Nexusmagic and performing on campus as Johnny Magic. But whatever, I thought this was a debate about the classic pass being relevant and not who has a better classic pass.

So like I said before, conversation is over on my end.

Since English is not my first language, I may have missunderstud that terminology. I never offended anyone directly, but you have, Mark and me. Calling me a punk openly, that's not nice, and I bet it breaks forum rules. The reason why I said that if you found your self attacked than it probably is you, is just because you were the only one to mention anything on what I have said, and you are definitely not the only person in this thread, even though it does seem like it in the last couple of pages. It may as well be anyone else.

Your comment about that this thread is about classic pass being relevant, and not about who has better classic pass. It is actually the same thing. If you could choose between personal trainer who is tall, fit, muscular and the one who is short and fat, who would you ask for advice? In other words, you can spill your wisdom of the classic pass on 7 pages, but if you cannot do the classic pass properly, than all that effort is for nothing. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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Moscow, Russia
So here is me guys after talking with Mark for an hour :) He showed me some great subtleties on Classic Pass that make it 99% angle proof! It may sound unbelievebly, but it is so. His variation is fluid and very smooth. I really like it and will put very much practice in it so I can use this sleight in my performances. I can't put much details on it because that would be exposure, but I can tell you that it's wonderfully constructed! Now I fully understand that Classic Pass should NOT be fast and struggling and the hands CAN be burnt by a spectators.
P.S.He also showed me some great effects - sandwiches, triumphs, color changes and vanishes, it was GREAT! His approachings to some old plots are really fresh and cool. He's REAL man! Thank him for having such a great time, best wishes.
-Alexander
 
Aug 10, 2008
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In a rock concert
Wow, it's great to see other "classic pass" entushiasts like myself!

To each his own I suppose, I prefer doing the classic pass because it is a sleight that I have practiced for quite some time now, and I can actually do it witouth "thinking" about it, so that I can use that energy to focus on spectators, proper patter, and proper misdirection.

Aaron fisher talks about this in "the paper engine" and it's something that I have actually liked a lot.

I remember sharing the grip and subtleties on the pass that use with some of the users here, I doubt they are around, but anyway, I'll try to record a video to share with you guys :).

By the way, instead of debating, go out and perform ;).
 
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