Camera Tricks Are OK!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Michael Moore, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. So the question is- are camera tricks ok to use, yes or no? The reason I ask is there alot of people who defend Criss Angel using camera tricks by saying "His job is to entertain people, & if he has, than he has done his job, so it doesnt matter if he uses camera tricks." Is this the message you guys really want to send to all the younger magicians who are getting into magic? I mean, if camera tricks are ok, what's the point of buying any magic at all? If they have a camera, the possibilities are ENDLESS, not to mention you could pull off any existing effect that you can buy here or anywhere else using camera tricks. So they'll shoot there effects, show it to family & friends, which they will be "entertained" by, & continue thinking. "Wow, this magic thing is easy, no hard work or practice at all!!" Than there will be no motivation for the younger generation to keep coming up with innovative magic that can be done live, because more & more of them will depend on the camera. But, maybe Im wrong. Maybe there are "justifications", or certain "situations" where it would be acceptable, such as "If you had your own show & ran out of genuin ideas, you'd resort to camera tricks too." Anyway, my answer is to my question is "no". A REAL magician doesnt use camera tricks. When you use camera tricks, than your just lazy for not coming up with a legitimate way of doing it, & you just become a special effects technician.
  2. Well, the thing is Criss doesn't really even get away with it. Lay people spot it, therefore its not even working to deceive them. They know he uses those things and its not just us magicians. As for setting an example, i don't think that will be an issue. Duplicating sleight of hand with camera tricks is not easy at all. It would be easier to just do a sleight badly than to edit the effect in and not be ultra noticeable.
  3. I see the case for both sides and am still on the fence about it. If you think about it, a camera is simply another gimmick, but it wont aid in your performances in the real world. Instead of complaining about it, do what YOU want to do and don't look back.

  4. No it's not okay, i'm sorry but how can it be okay to use camera tricks and then call yourself a magician? and people have built a cult following to him, people call him a "sick Magician" and "One of the best" it's bollocks. and on another level people now grade your talent based on him, i don't know if any of you guys are but i'm a professional working Magician, and there have been a good number of times people will ask if i do tricks like Criss Angel or something to that effect ( especially the younger crowd) it's not acceptable a'tall to use Camera Tricks..

    and as far as he goes as a magician, did you see his performance on AGT.. he just proved that at least four magicians on that show are 10000X better them him... his Metamorphoses was horrid.. i mean horrid.. people i know that don't know magic knew how he did that, i mean the moved the damn box all the way to the back between the opening before they even thought of chaining it up.. bollocks
  5. Let's also remember that Criss got his Luxor contract based on what talent buyers saw him doing on TV and when it came to the live show he couldn't deliver... the show was and seems to still hold the title as one of the worse acts on the strip and quite possibly the worse one since a certain large breasted bimbo graced the strip... people forgave her to exposing and blowing effects because she had big boobs, a tight butt and blond hair... then again, 90% of her audience were dirty old men or horny young men that were there for a different kind of trick.

    If you can't do it live under existing or practical conditions, why are you doing it? It stops being magic as most people define such and becomes special effects. If we forgive "creative editing" and other camera effects (other than "perspective control") are we going to forgive the first clown that incorporates CGI? Hell, we already forgave Copperfield for using Blue Screen...

    Once holographic imaging is better perfected, probable within the next decade, will be be seeing close-up workers justifying the use of Holo-projectors as a means of creating an effect? Granted, it is an "illusion" but I'd have to say that some in this world are really pushing the envelope with that explanation and the only person they've got CONvinced is themselves and maybe some foolhearted fans.
  6. My answer is "Depends". If you are doing close up, or street, or stage, or parlor, or any other medium that isn't using a camera to entertain public en mass then no. Of course your not going to use camera tricks.

    However TV magic and to a degree Net magic is a different animal. You can take certain liberties that you normally couldn't be afforded. In that case, you'll do what ever you need to in order to get that pay check.

    It's about entertainment, not the method used.
  7. I personally am ok with camera tricks. And I respect Criss Angel. I respect him because that's his way of doing magic, that's his method, hating on criss angel's methods is like hating on us because we did a double lift. Sure several laymen know he does camera tricks but MOST people don't believe it and they ARE entertained, and that's ALL that matters.

    And for me personally, I look at it as a challenge. I look at it in a positive way, I say, "Ok obviously it was a camera trick, how could I recreate that and perform that for myself with out the camera trick." And trust me, there are ways. I've figured out methods to Criss' camera tricks and that's why I love Criss Angel because he gives me GREAT ideas.

    Don't chicken out because a "normal" magician can't do tricks like him, just find a way to do it. It's a challenge for me and that's what gets me off. =)

    Same thing with stooges. Obviously Criss uses stooges but that's his method, I may not like using stooges and I will never use a stooge but still that's the way he wants to do it.
  8. You hit the nail on the head.

    Whenever lay people talk to me about magic and they bring up Criss Angel's name, about 80% of the time they continue with something about how he uses camera tricks and/or stooges.

    Personally I don't see any problem with using camera tricks, stooges, or clever camera work and editing either used very sparingly, or in order to protect the secret of an effect (as Blaine has done a few times in his specials) on TV (where some people will watch the same footage over and over again). But when those tools are used repeatedly as the sole method for achieving the magic it stops becoming magic and starts becoming Hollywood special effects. And overusing any method is never a good thing, as eventually an audience will start to smarten up to what's going on--which is exactly what's happened to Criss Angel--the majority have caught on.
  9. I don't follow your logic at all.
  10. I'm affraid there is a confusion between camera tricks and special effects here. I've never saw any of Criss Angel's specials as I live in France, and thus I might be wrong, but I believe he doesn't use special effects (I mean use a computer to, let's say, make something vanish). However, he does use camera tricks (perspective, things that are out of frame, etc...). But is that to blame ? I really don't think so.

    I mean, as magicians we also use our environnement to our advantage, whether it's our own shadow when we use loops, or when we cover our bad angles. Of course people could see the secret behind Criss' levitation if they could see what happened outside the frame, but wouldn't people see the secret of your TnR card if they were standing behind you ? (something, hopefully, you won't let happen).

    If you go down that road, stage magicians also use ways to create magic that are "unfair" to us, close up magicians, because we can't do it in real life...Shall we blame them for that ??
  11. Meaning that criss' methods are this own. If you don't like them, you have to get over it.

    I HATE double undercuts but if people do them, then you know whatever. I perform a classic pass but if they want to do a double undercut then that's their choice. Just like criss, camera tricks and stooges are his own thing, I may never use them, but I don't care if he uses them. I try to find a way to do the same illusions without them.
  12. I think your comparisons between double undercuts vs. passes and camera tricks vs. live methods are inaccurate.

    This isn't a matter of which way to change a card is the most deceptive; it's a matter of a magician overusing the same methods again and again after a large portion of his audience has already caught onto what he's doing, and which can't be duplicated live with any actual skill or craft.

    In the argument you propose the double undercut is fine as long as it's doing the job it's supposed to be, which is serving as a convincing control. But if a card magician were to use that same card control over and over again, even when most of his spectators had already caught on and called him on it, then there's a parallel with what Criss Angel's issue is with his "special effects."
  13. but the thing about that is that most people haven't caught criss on his camera tricks, most laymen don't believe he uses camera tricks. Yes, a very LARGE portion believes he does but the majority doesn't. 9/10 times i've talked to laymen, they love criss angel saying he's the best. So the majority of laymen are being entertained, and that's ALL that matters.
  14. Here’s the way I look at it. Spectators will believe what they want regardless of whether or not you are using stooges. Plus stooges have long been used as a method in magic.
  15. #15 Mat La Vore, Aug 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2010
    I guess it's a matter of personal experiencer then.

    Most laymen I talk to (probably about 80% or so), when Criss Angel's name is brought up, say something about how he "just uses camera tricks and actors."
  16. Not only does he use Actors and Camera tricks to do magic, he uses them for his Big stunts, he also uses Stunt Doubles..

    i don't understand why it's okay to use Camera Tricks/Editing in magic.. but in his stunts where he's claiming he's really doing it... how is that right?
  17. In a sense you kind of are right. But don't forget the millions on millions on millions of fans Criss has shown ONLY on his tv show, not to mention the millions of fans all over the world. Yes I'm sure he's got millions of haters but in the greater scheme of things, his fans outweigh his haters.
    So the statement of saying the majority of laymen are entertained by criss.
  18. First time I saw jumping gemini I swore that it was edited. So did my friends. (we watched a video).
    When I actually performed the effect for them years later, they didnt believe theyr eyes. Exactly the response Im looking for.

    So, in short:
    Criss angel does not hurt magic by presenting it as impossible via the television(impossible in the sense "can only be done with editing), cause when we perform miracles up-close and live, the people that watch cant categorize their response since it cant be a special effect it must be "???". There you go, astonishment a la Paul Harris.

    And you actually said it yourself, "So they'll shoot there effects, show it to family & friends, which they will be "entertained" by, & continue thinking. "Wow, this magic thing is easy, no hard work or practice at all!!" Than there will be no motivation for the younger generation to keep coming up with innovative magic that can be done live..."
    Well, on the contrary, If you can do what THEY do with video editing BUT live.. you just killed internet :)
    I dont know if that makes sense but Im just saying, as long as you can do it live you dont have to worry about other who cant.. since they wont. People can scream camera-effects all they want, when you prove them wrong, you will blow theyr mind.

    Simplest way of thinking about it is:
    If magic really existed, you performing a color change wouldnt be cool at all. If people only think is achieveable with cameras and you do it live.. well you'll figure out the rest.
  19. dude!!! You took the words right out of my mouth! I TOTALLY agree! =)
  20. DUDE!! You took the words... wait a minutes! I couldn't disagree more!! In fact, what you said is a flat out lie!! There is no truth to anything you have said. He hasn't shown "millions on millions on millions" of fans ONLY on his TV show. Do you know how much a stadium fills up? About 30-40 thousand people. Do you know how much a million is, much less millions? He hasn't even shown close to a stadium full of people on his show, much less a million, or even millions.

    He doesn't have any fans "across the world". In fact, most people outside of the USA haven't even heard of him. If his fans outweighed the haters, then his show wouldn't have been moved from the major networks to A&E.

    So what if people are "entertained"? It's not magic. It's special effect, it's camera editing. That is not magic. There's so much more to magic than simply entertaining people.

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