Cerca Trova (Unofficial)

Aug 31, 2007
1,960
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Long Island/New York
Why is it that magicians are selfish to their art? Why can't magicians (Usually) take criticism with open arms? Why does every magician act like they are the best magician ever? If you don't believe me on that last you are in denial. Or you just won't admit it... Let's discuss!

Whoaa.
I'm friends with many magicians and most of them don't think they're the best/ nor do they act that way. Maybe you should make better friends with different people.
It can open more doors for you with creating/performing for sure. I have good friends who help me all the time with different effects and I help them in return.

There are many magicians out there who don't take criticism well, or take it but just don't follow it. To me, that's stupid because how is that person going to grow as a performer, plus what are forums for? If a member takes zero advice from magicians who have been performing the same trick for years, how could he expect to get better?

The problem is magicians take critiquing way the hell too personally.
They just need to take it, embrace it, accept it, and then change whatever need be.
Period.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Feb 27, 2008
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Grand prairie TX
Its most magicians HERE in the internet and forums that dont take criticism well. Steerpike already has written good points on this.
much of the internet is inhabited by loud obnoxious teenagers like me.
Sites like T11 and ellusionist attract all these new kids on the block that want to do the same thing. Do 'awesome' street magic tricks like david blaine and criss angel and have the same MTV style youtube videos. This is when they think they are at the height of cool and are just trickaholics.And these are the majority on the forums thats why we think we see alot of these people.
Like all things,im hoping for the majority of them,its just a phase.
This way of thinking of theirs will pass.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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www.myspace.com
Whoaa.
I'm friends with many magicians and most of them don't think they're the best/ nor do they act that way. Maybe you should make better friends with different people.
It can open more doors for you with creating/performing for sure. I have good friends who help me all the time with different effects and I help them in return.

Period.


Okay... You can honestly say you don't have an extreme ego AT ALL when you (hopefully) Perform? I seriously doubt it... At least to some degree anyway...

I am raising a new question now, now that we covered ego and critiquing... What makes Criss Angel so popular? i think it's because the people don't know any better. Thoughts?
 
May 31, 2008
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I am raising a new question now, now that we covered ego and critiquing... What makes Criss Angel so popular? i think it's because the people don't know any better. Thoughts?

He has a TV show, nothing beyond that. Nowadays you can put anything on TV and it will be popular. If I or anyone else on these forums had a TV show, they would be equally as popular. It's all about marketing.
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
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Long Island/New York
Okay... You can honestly say you don't have an extreme ego AT ALL when you (hopefully) Perform? I seriously doubt it... At least to some degree anyway...

When performing, yeah maybe to a degree, but not much. I always have a train of thought embedded in my mind thinking I'm not good. This gets me practicing more and more. Yeah I get applauded after performing, but I feel like I didn't do anything spectacular. So I don't let the reactions I receive go to my head. I figure if they were a magician and read the books and watched the DVDs I have, they could do the same.

In other words I feel like I'm doing nothing special when I'm performing tricks that other magicians had come up with and published to the world. If they wanted to, every spectator can buy the same material I had and perform the same as me with a lot of practice of course.

Comparing to magicians, I know I'm not the best because every magician can do the same material I perform. I know we compare magicians by the tricks they do and how well they present them/been performed.

But to laymen, they only care about what tricks are done.
When a David Blaine special or Masters of Illusion comes on, my Dad always says to me, "Dan, you can do that, you've done that before."
He doesn't care too much about the presentation in the trick.
So what I'm saying is presentation doesn't get noticed in the eyes of the specs. They think whatever you're talking about is suppose to be said for the trick. So they just compare you to whatever magician they saw based on the trick only.
For magicians they compare you to presentation and how well you performed it.

So when spectators think you're the best magician they've ever seen, it's just based on the tricks you've done - the tricks that many other magicians can do.

What I'm asking is, do you feel better when a spectator tells you you're good or when a magician with many years of experience tells you you're good.


I am raising a new question now, now that we covered ego and critiquing... What makes Criss Angel so popular? i think it's because the people don't know any better. Thoughts?

We make him more popular then he really is.
Most people have seen him on tv but probably will never bring him up in conversation unless they see you perform.
 
Nov 8, 2008
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U.S.
I want all the the magicians to step up and say why they are this way. I will be the first to admit that I have a ego problem. I stated in a past cerca trova that I act like I am god's gift to the planet earth when I perform... Key words, when I perform. Everyone else would most likely act like this in everyday life. Criss Angel is the best example I can give you.

Yup, I've have the same problem. I end up thinking I am soooooo good at magic. Well, maybe I am, but that's for others to decide. So currently, I've been trying to get into the mindset that I'm not the best ever. Of course as Steerpike said, ego is important. But, It can turn into a monster.


Here we go:

I have a big ego in magic.



Thank you to Z-magic, RDChocpper, and Steerpike.

-Dmagic
:D:D:D

P.S. Check my signature.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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verry well said alex,....i agree.....
I love when you post because they are thought out, you were one of the people I wanted to see in this thread! I really don't know what else to say... You hit the nail right on the head!

Remember to later smack me down when I come back drunk, otherwise we risk the traps I mentioned earlier. I may be aware of the dangers of my mastodonic ego being praised, but that doesn't mean I can't sidestep a pothole only to fall off a bridge.

It seems as though there is no light at the end of the tunnel to be seen. from all my discussions of such topics similar, we have to rely on a few magicians such as yourself to point things out like this, but it will never stop.

There will always be bad artists. Success requires work, and most people lack the ambition for that. I've heard the excuse used that people with talent don't need to practice, and that people with skill are just learning from books and have no heart. I've heard multiple variations on that. It derives from a truism that artists who are largely self-taught tend to have more free-wheeling styles or flexible creative processes.

A few years back I saw an interview with Tuomas Holopainen nd Marco Hietala of the Finnish symphonic metal band Nightwish. When asked how to the two of them worked together as Tuomas was the main songwriter and composer for the group and Marco already had over 20 years of experience with own band Tarot, Marco commented that they learned a lot from each other. Tuomas was mostly self-taught so he puts all of his ideas down on paper first and then starts refining them with input from the band. Marco was formally schooled in music so he has a much more structured approach. Tuomas helped Marco bend the rules a little, and Marco gave Tuomas some organization to his thinking processes.

Both men are incredibly talented, but they also put in countless hours of work to become musicians at all, nevermind internationally famous rock stars. This fact is overlooked by the lazy people who want success without all that nasty business of blood, sweat and tears.

The more you talk to these people, you'll see the multitude of excuses congeal. And once you understand these conceits and rationalizations, you start to understand why the field of professional magic is littered with the bones of those who failed because they never really tried.

So there's the question, how do you really "critic" something that is subjective to each person?
Giving criticism to the technique is understandable. And giving idea's to the presentation should obviously be wanted. But in my opinion, it should not be said that someone's presentation of their art is completely wrong. Because, how can it be really?

You more or less answered your own question. Every media of art has a history. It has a tradition, it has structure, it has rules. You mentioned Pollock, but let us not forget that if you look at his early work, this man mastered the hell out of conventional painting before he started to innovate.

To reference that blog again, one of the comics the author reviewed was College Roomies from Hell (and no, I'm not typing out the stupid redundant exclamation points). It's one of the most poorly written things I've ever seen in my life and I saw the Wicker Man remake. The author of the blog was attacked in the comments section by fans of the comic for saying that the characters were all 1-dimensional. He responded by challenging the fans to describe one or more of the character's personality in detail. The caveats were of course that you could not describe physical appearance, plot lines from the comic, backstory, hobbies, relationships, etc. These are not the things that define a character. Only one person attempted this, but the above things are all he listed.

That is a rule of writing characters. Characterization is not stuff that happens to them. Batman losing his parents wasn't characterization, it's how he feels about it. Therefore, one can effectively critique a narrative based on the depth of its characters as they relate to the genre of the piece.

There are many magicians out there who don't take criticism well, or take it but just don't follow it. To me, that's stupid because how is that person going to grow as a performer, plus what are forums for? If a member takes zero advice from magicians who have been performing the same trick for years, how could he expect to get better?

It stems from the belief that they're already good enough. They don't want criticism, they want praise. They're not looking to get better, because they believe that there's already no room for improvement, most likely because of some flattery and adoration they received from the teeming masses of the internet already.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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www.myspace.com
I'm sorry DannyT, I just can't agree with you on spectators not caring about presentation... But I am glad that you don't have an ego problem at all! You are very, VERY lucky. But anyway, this is like beating a dead horse, but what do you all think is the next step forward, to turn this whole mess around... Or at least make things better. I know RDChopper and the "Go_Out.Perform." Thread helped tremendously! What else can we do? Thoughts?
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
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Back in Time
People care about the presentation as long as it's not silly or boring. If you can make it sound interesting and also sound like you know what you're talking about. Then it can turn something simple into a miracle. The problem is that most people don't want to put in the effort to google up or read a few books on the subject that they are talking about.
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
1
34
Long Island/New York
I'm sorry DannyT, I just can't agree with you on spectators not caring about presentation... But I am glad that you don't have an ego problem at all! You are very, VERY lucky.
Hmm, can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
But anyway, this is like beating a dead horse, but what do you all think is the next step forward, to turn this whole mess around... Or at least make things better. I know RDChopper and the "Go_Out.Perform." Thread helped tremendously! What else can we do?

Pray.
 
You can not destroy the ego. Noone can. It will always find a way to latch onto accomplishment.

You can keep it tamed. While it is a battle you will never fully win, you can keep the edge.

I disagree that magic is on a downward slope though. There are bad performers in everything. My spectators today were glad to see my magic, and there will always be people who love magic just like there will always be film lovers even though a TON of crap gets put out every weekend. How many bad books are there? How much bad music? I think this sense of suffering only exists in our eyes because we see so much more magic than average people. I am sure that anyone who does anything always thinks dismally about their field no matter if its entertainment industry or the health industry.

Did the music industry need saviors? Or the film industry? I think that gradually as time goes on the new comes and the old goes, and the best is remembered and the bad is forgotten. How many spectators will be old and remember your messed up double lift? How many in comparison will never see that double lift take place, but will remember how that trick amazed them and gave them a good time?

If the decline and death of magic ever happens it will not be due to crappy webcam performances of the king rising levitation or the snap change. That stuff falls and is forgotten. We need to forget about it too. I can barely remember anything the masked magician ever revealed, but I remember 90% of those "Worlds Greatest Magic" episodes on tv. I most certainly remember seeing David Copperfield live. Does anyone really watch the masked magician on tv? Does he change lives in the way Copperfield does?

Much in the way that in mentalism, your off guesses will most likely be forgotten or excused, but your on guesses will be remembered and magnified. I think this applies to entertainment. Good is remembered, bad is forgotten.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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But anyway, this is like beating a dead horse, but what do you all think is the next step forward, to turn this whole mess around...

Stop cutting each other's throats. The magic community is piss poor at showing solidarity.

If the people who actually give a damn form a sense of community, they can weed out the poseurs and help refine the good ones.
 
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