Cerca Trova (Unofficial)

Sep 15, 2007
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Why is it that magicians are selfish to their art? Why can't magicians (Usually) take criticism with open arms? Why does every magician act like they are the best magician ever? If you don't believe me on that last you are in denial. Or you just won't admit it... Let's discuss!
 
Aug 10, 2008
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In a rock concert
Why is it that magicians are selfish to their art? Why can't magicians (Usually) take criticism with open arms? Why does every magician act like they are the best magician ever? If you don't believe me on that last you are in denial. Or you just won't admit it... Let's discuss!

Before we discuss this, Im curious, there must be a motivation behind you making these questions, what is it?
 
Sep 15, 2007
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I just see the same stupid crap from a lot of magicians, (and I know who they are, and they probably know who they are as well) and frankly I am sick and tired of how magic is going lately... So that's the motivation for this thread.

EDIT:: I want to see some true colors from some magicians with this thread as well. I know people can act nice, but at the end of the day... You know how you are.
 
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Aug 10, 2008
2,023
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In a rock concert
I just see the same stupid crap from a lot of magicians, (and I know who they are, and they probably know who they are as well) and frankly I am sick and tired of how magic is going lately... So that's the motivation for this thread.

EDIT:: I want to see some true colors from some magicians with this thread as well. I know people can act nice, but at the end of the day... You know how you are.

Ok ok, well the answer it's simple, Its EGO, we love ourselves way soo much that we dont pay attention to random and unkwnown persons over the internet that criticices our performances. Its that simple.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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Alright. How did that ego come to be... I am gonna quote Katie Egleston. (hope she won't mind...)

"A thought that crossed my mind is why do magicians think they are better than they really are? Is it because they hire groupies that tell them they are? Are their friends afraid to hurt their feelings? or is it because they have won "awards" in magic? Who knows, it might be something completely different all together."

I want all the the magicians to step up and say why they are this way. I will be the first to admit that I have a ego problem. I stated in a past cerca trova that I act like I am god's gift to the planet earth when I perform... Key words, when I perform. Everyone else would most likely act like this in everyday life. Criss Angel is the best example I can give you.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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lol. But seriously, Magic is going to die as an art if we don't change things. This attitude that "I am the best!" and crappy performances just aren't going to hold up.
 
I totally agree... I see alot of magicians claim to be great and everything but when one person says oh that didnt look to good or anything they go all nuts. I love critisism. See this is the way i see it. You know you have done your job right when people praise you for what you done but you had accomplished something when someone critisizes you and you practice practice and practice some more than go back and show that person the same exact trick and they are in awe. I mean dont get me wrong im not saying that i dont act big headed as well because there are times that i get way to into it and think im the best magician to have ever walked the earth lolz. But ya in conclusion i think that people really should take the critisism and use it as a base to better your act.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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I totally agree... I see alot of magicians claim to be great and everything but when one person says oh that didnt look to good or anything they go all nuts. I love critisism. See this is the way i see it. You know you have done your job right when people praise you for what you done but you had accomplished something when someone criticizes you and you practice practice and practice some more than go back and show that person the same exact trick and they are in awe. I mean dont get me wrong im not saying that i dont act big headed as well because there are times that i get way to into it and think im the best magician to have ever walked the earth lolz. But ya in conclusion i think that people really should take the critisism and use it as a base to better your act.

That was an excellent post! Now that we know critiques will make someone a better PERFORMER... And I am using that term extremely loosely until there is more change. Although I have to admit, people have got a lot better with performing for people instead of for web-cam's. But I digress... Critiques, HELP YOU!!! Now there is another side to the story, sometimes people who give critiques are not always in the right position to give them. If a web-cam performer wants to give a street performer advice... That's just too damn bad. If you don't have experience on what you are talking about, don't give advice.

Very good post gambit!
 
lol. But seriously, Magic is going to die as an art if we don't change things. This attitude that "I am the best!" and crappy performances just aren't going to hold up.
its not gonna truly die, i do believe thats why we have so many magician's branching off to themselves instead of creating the pure jaw dropping magic that takes the brain of multiple magicians instead of one.....

time after time we see magicians create effects and we ourselves be like" if he had done this or did that, it would have been killer".....imagine if a magician always worked with multiple magicians on their work, someone has something to add, and if they come up with a way to be spill proof, that would be the greatest effect possible....however that will never happen in the industry.....


question? Isn't your problem/post question the reason for theory 11 being created???

even these guys haven't figured that out....
 
Sep 15, 2007
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its not gonna truly die, i do believe thats why we have so many magician's branching off to themselves instead of creating the pure jaw dropping magic that takes the brain of multiple magicians instead of one.....

time after time we see magicians create effects and we ourselves be like" if he had done this or did that, it would have been killer".....imagine if a magician always worked with multiple magicians on their work, someone has something to add, and if they come up with a way to be spill proof, that would be the greatest effect possible....however that will never happen in the industry.....


question? Isn't your problem/post question the reason for theory 11 being created???

even these guys haven't figured that out....

I would like to believe so... But... nothing is changing and we got to have people step up to the plate. Theory 11 can give you tools but can't make you be a better PERFORMER. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink basically.
 
I would like to believe so... But... nothing is changing and we got to have people step up to the plate. Theory 11 can give you tools but can't make you be a better PERFORMER. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink basically.
i totally get you, i mean on the homepage where it says "what is theory 11" i think every magician needs to read exactly its explanation and maybe ego would get out of the way,

i've worked with magicians, makeup artists, stuntmen, pyrotechnics, even doctors to come up with some of my effects, why??? cuz whatever object i'm dealing with i want that expert's theory, and advice, and eventually take it to multiple magicians to see what their input is, and if all testing goes well, i have then created a spill proof or close to spill proof effect.....

but thats just me....
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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lol. But seriously, Magic is going to die as an art if we don't change things. This attitude that "I am the best!" and crappy performances just aren't going to hold up.

This is symptomatic of internet artists in general.

Go to YouTube and search for the various "shows" done by college girls. I guarantee you'll get through maybe three of them before either slipping into a coma out of boredom or waking up naked in the woods covered in filth.

Now go to MySpace and look up random bands. Assuming your ears don't start bleeding, try to slog through about three or four of them.

Finally, go to deviantArt and punch in search words such as "anime," "manga" or "fanart." Make sure your phone is already set to dial the suicide prevention hotline.

Now in all three cases, try leaving some constructive feedback. Give it five minutes and wait for the screaming, personal attacks, and death threats to start.

Paradoxically, websites like that thrive on the mediocrity of wannabes and a duplicitous culture of nice is created. So-called fans shower these people with fawning praise and adoration. Eventually, the wannabes start to buy into it and develop massive egos. But since that ego is built on fawning flattery instead of accomplishment, the monolithic self-image is made entirely of glass. They lash out at the first criticism in defense and it's soon made worse when the fans join the fray.

The fans are inherently parasites however. They slowly leach an artist of all drive to improve, all potential, and motivate them to stagnate and waste time that could have been spent furthering their art.

I actually have been lurking for a while at a forum called Concept Art, a board for professional graphic artists to critique each other's work. These people are mind-blowingly incredible, but they take criticism graciously and strive to improve. A while back, some deviantArt brat came there thinking she was going to make waves with her pornographic fetish manga. Most of them tried to be polite and constructively critique her, and she completely lost her **** and blew up at them. A couple of her fans registered accounts there for the sole purpose of defending her by attacking everyone else.

This is the danger of bringing art online and why so many magicians are cranky, arrogant, miserable bastards. To be a performing artist, you need an ego to begin with. You have to enjoy the applause. It's not a bad thing in itself, but it can quickly create a monster. Especially when you have all these young guys posting their videos on YouTube and receiving praise from people who type with spelling and grammar on a 1st grade level at best. Again, it's the parasite thing.

The internet in general is a terrible place to get real, powerful constructive criticism. Without a community dedicated to criticism, you get only a bunch of drooling throwbacks with so little experience in art that they lack the mechanisms to discern great works from amateurish learning experiences.

A now-inactive blog that is a personal favorite of mine is Your Webcomic is Bad and You Should Feel Bad. The author was a savage critic of the highest magnitude. He went after the writing and art of these comics, and also called bull**** on their creators' bad attitudes. But you could tell he knew what he was talking about. Most of the comic artists responded with bitterness, personal attacks, or callous dismissal. But one young guy actually read the blog, saw the critique of his comic, and commented there to say that he could tell the author was right in his criticisms. After a brief conversation, he discontinued the comic and focused on improving his artwork. That was 2007. I took a peak at the guy's portfolio on his website and while he still has a long way to go, his work has improved by lightyears. That's why criticism is important.
 
This is symptomatic of internet artists in general.

Go to YouTube and search for the various "shows" done by college girls. I guarantee you'll get through maybe three of them before either slipping into a coma out of boredom or waking up naked in the woods covered in filth.

Now go to MySpace and look up random bands. Assuming your ears don't start bleeding, try to slog through about three or four of them.

Finally, go to deviantArt and punch in search words such as "anime," "manga" or "fanart." Make sure your phone is already set to dial the suicide prevention hotline.

Now in all three cases, try leaving some constructive feedback. Give it five minutes and wait for the screaming, personal attacks, and death threats to start.

Paradoxically, websites like that thrive on the mediocrity of wannabes and a duplicitous culture of nice is created. So-called fans shower these people with fawning praise and adoration. Eventually, the wannabes start to buy into it and develop massive egos. But since that ego is built on fawning flattery instead of accomplishment, the monolithic self-image is made entirely of glass. They lash out at the first criticism in defense and it's soon made worse when the fans join the fray.

The fans are inherently parasites however. They slowly leach an artist of all drive to improve, all potential, and motivate them to stagnate and waste time that could have been spent furthering their art.

I actually have been lurking for a while at a forum called Concept Art, a board for professional graphic artists to critique each other's work. These people are mind-blowingly incredible, but they take criticism graciously and strive to improve. A while back, some deviantArt brat came there thinking she was going to make waves with her pornographic fetish manga. Most of them tried to be polite and constructively critique her, and she completely lost her **** and blew up at them. A couple of her fans registered accounts there for the sole purpose of defending her by attacking everyone else.

This is the danger of bringing art online and why so many magicians are cranky, arrogant, miserable bastards. To be a performing artist, you need an ego to begin with. You have to enjoy the applause. It's not a bad thing in itself, but it can quickly create a monster. Especially when you have all these young guys posting their videos on YouTube and receiving praise from people who type with spelling and grammar on a 1st grade level at best. Again, it's the parasite thing.

The internet in general is a terrible place to get real, powerful constructive criticism. Without a community dedicated to criticism, you get only a bunch of drooling throwbacks with so little experience in art that they lack the mechanisms to discern great works from amateurish learning experiences.

A now-inactive blog that is a personal favorite of mine is Your Webcomic is Bad and You Should Feel Bad. The author was a savage critic of the highest magnitude. He went after the writing and art of these comics, and also called bull**** on their creators' bad attitudes. But you could tell he knew what he was talking about. Most of the comic artists responded with bitterness, personal attacks, or callous dismissal. But one young guy actually read the blog, saw the critique of his comic, and commented there to say that he could tell the author was right in his criticisms. After a brief conversation, he discontinued the comic and focused on improving his artwork. That was 2007. I took a peak at the guy's portfolio on his website and while he still has a long way to go, his work has improved by lightyears. That's why criticism is important.
verry well said alex,....i agree.....
 
Sep 15, 2007
1,127
0
30
www.myspace.com
This is symptomatic of internet artists in general.

Go to YouTube and search for the various "shows" done by college girls. I guarantee you'll get through maybe three of them before either slipping into a coma out of boredom or waking up naked in the woods covered in filth.

Now go to MySpace and look up random bands. Assuming your ears don't start bleeding, try to slog through about three or four of them.

Finally, go to deviantArt and punch in search words such as "anime," "manga" or "fanart." Make sure your phone is already set to dial the suicide prevention hotline.

Now in all three cases, try leaving some constructive feedback. Give it five minutes and wait for the screaming, personal attacks, and death threats to start.

Paradoxically, websites like that thrive on the mediocrity of wannabes and a duplicitous culture of nice is created. So-called fans shower these people with fawning praise and adoration. Eventually, the wannabes start to buy into it and develop massive egos. But since that ego is built on fawning flattery instead of accomplishment, the monolithic self-image is made entirely of glass. They lash out at the first criticism in defense and it's soon made worse when the fans join the fray.

The fans are inherently parasites however. They slowly leach an artist of all drive to improve, all potential, and motivate them to stagnate and waste time that could have been spent furthering their art.

I actually have been lurking for a while at a forum called Concept Art, a board for professional graphic artists to critique each other's work. These people are mind-blowingly incredible, but they take criticism graciously and strive to improve. A while back, some deviantArt brat came there thinking she was going to make waves with her pornographic fetish manga. Most of them tried to be polite and constructively critique her, and she completely lost her **** and blew up at them. A couple of her fans registered accounts there for the sole purpose of defending her by attacking everyone else.

This is the danger of bringing art online and why so many magicians are cranky, arrogant, miserable bastards. To be a performing artist, you need an ego to begin with. You have to enjoy the applause. It's not a bad thing in itself, but it can quickly create a monster. Especially when you have all these young guys posting their videos on YouTube and receiving praise from people who type with spelling and grammar on a 1st grade level at best. Again, it's the parasite thing.

The internet in general is a terrible place to get real, powerful constructive criticism. Without a community dedicated to criticism, you get only a bunch of drooling throwbacks with so little experience in art that they lack the mechanisms to discern great works from amateurish learning experiences.

A now-inactive blog that is a personal favorite of mine is Your Webcomic is Bad and You Should Feel Bad. The author was a savage critic of the highest magnitude. He went after the writing and art of these comics, and also called bull**** on their creators' bad attitudes. But you could tell he knew what he was talking about. Most of the comic artists responded with bitterness, personal attacks, or callous dismissal. But one young guy actually read the blog, saw the critique of his comic, and commented there to say that he could tell the author was right in his criticisms. After a brief conversation, he discontinued the comic and focused on improving his artwork. That was 2007. I took a peak at the guy's portfolio on his website and while he still has a long way to go, his work has improved by lightyears. That's why criticism is important.

I love when you post because they are thought out, you were one of the people I wanted to see in this thread! I really don't know what else to say... You hit the nail right on the head! It seems as though there is no light at the end of the tunnel to be seen. from all my discussions of such topics similar, we have to rely on a few magicians such as yourself to point things out like this, but it will never stop.
 
Jan 5, 2009
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Small town Ohio
It is disheartening to see so many cocky magicians who think they're the best.
But let's be honest, there's people like that everywhere with anything.

I agree with you that we should take criticism with open arms.. as long as it's constructive of course. If someone posts a video and all someone says is, "this sucks", then obviously that's not going to help anything.

As it's been said, magic is an art. And as with any art form, it can be seen in many different ways.. in my opinion at least.
Take a Jackson Pollock painting... I may look at it and see one thing, as where someone else could look at it and see something completely different.
A magic trick may affect someone one way, and affect someone else totally different.

So there's the question, how do you really "critic" something that is subjective to each person?
Giving criticism to the technique is understandable. And giving idea's to the presentation should obviously be wanted. But in my opinion, it should not be said that someone's presentation of their art is completely wrong. Because, how can it be really?


Okay, kinda straying from the topic a little, lol.
But all in all, I understand what you're saying. It is frustrating but if they're going to act like that then just forget them honestly. They're not helping you so don't let them get to you. Just smile and move on :]
And like I said, as long as the criticism is constructive, then I really don't think people should have any problem with it. I personally love hearing it. Someone else with a different pair of eyes may have seen something I missed..so of course i want to hear it.
 
May 31, 2008
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This is a long one...

Magic is a small community, and you're correct many people who practice the art of magic are selfish and egotistical.

I lived in San Francisco for the first seven years of my life, and I saw a lot of street performers. Very few of them were magicians. I remember only seeing one or two. The one I remember the most did a simple effect for a child who looked about eight years of age. At the end of the effect (the details I cannot recall) the child asked, "Do you think I could do that?" The magician laughed. I didn't really think of the magician being selfish until I read your post, that's when I finally realized that that magician was a complete jerk that thought he was, "Betta than da rest."

I wasn't exposed to good magic for a very long time. The experiences with magic I had was a bad magic kit my cousin and I shared (we also shared a room) and a man in a mask that exposed magic.

When I was eight I moved to Martinez, where I discovered a place called, "California Magic & Dinner Theater," a place where you could buy magic during the day, and watch magic at night. I saw my first good magic trick there, it was a card to wallet performed by Gerry Griffin. My grandpa was a writer for the Antioch Press at the time, and he was doing a story on the small dinner theater. We got free tickets, I wasn't enthusiastic about going, but it ended up being a night that that has had a huge impact on me.

Before the show, three or four of the performing magicians walked around and displayed close-up magic while the spectators ate there dinners. Gerry Griffin approached us to show me my first good magic trick. He started by having me remove a card from ordinary pack of red-playing cards. I found them somewhat odd, I had never seen playing cards that didn't have a picture of a city or Mickey Mouse on them. I removed a card, the four of clubs. He handed me a Sharipie and asked me to write my name on it. I wrote very small in the top-left-hand corner, "DAVID." He took the card back, and placed it into the middle of the pack. He snapped, and it was back on top. He repeated this process several times, each time with the same amount of flare. I can't recall exactly what happened after that, but I remember Gerry reaching into his pocket for his wallet, he handed it to me, and inside, folded up into a small packet, was a four of clubs with a name written in the upper-left-hand corner, "DAVID." I still have the very same card locked in a box with all of my valuables. He let the moment sink in and said, "I hope you enjoy the rest of the show," and walked away.

I did, I enjoyed all three performers, Joel Paschall, Gerry Griffin, and the Great Darrel. As soon as I got home, I looked into a small book my grandma had placed in my easter basket the previous year, "Mark Wilson's Little Book of Card Tricks." I learned m first effect, "Turnover Card." In the following years I learned all of the tricks in the book and stopped by Cal Magic to purchase things once or twice. When I was ten, I discovered Internet magic. I purchased DVDs from a site called, "Ellusionist.com." That's when I became serious about my magic; I performed constantly at school, and frequented Cal Magic.

When I was thirteen, I joined both the Ellusionist and Theory11 online forums. I quickly learned that 50% of magicians thought they were the best. They never wanted to help younger magicians, and only pointed out the negatives in performance videos.

I have a theory. We spend hours upon hours practicing difficult sleights. Are fingers are extremely dexterous, much more so than the average Joe, and those who have been practicing magic for a short period of time. The reality is that we are more dedicated than 95% of people. (Assuming 5% of the population is magicians.) That's why; we know that almost no one can do the things we do. We can switch two packets invisibly, we can lift two cards and make it look like one, we can...you get the idea.

We can't let these things go to our head though; nobody wants to see an ego maniac of a magician.

I'm going to use to football players as examples, Marvin Harrison, and Terrel Owens.

Harrison and Owens are equally skilled wide receivers, they both have their injuries here and there, and faults, but they're incredibly skilled at catching a football. They are equally skilled, however, if a GM had a choice of Harrison or Owens, for the same amount of money, they would choose Harrison…because Owens is a jerk. Owens, like many magicians, thinks he's "betta than da rest." Because of his and other players like him (Chad Johnson, Pac-Man Jones etc.) football is getting a bad rep.

If magicians don't change, the same thing will happen to us. Spectators won't want to see an effect from a nice guy, because a a few years ago they saw some jerk do a magic trick for them in an egotistical way.
 
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Thank you z. Just like since i got into magic alot of people in my area decided to try and take it on and i love it but at the same time i hate it because they all claim to be the best. Yes there are some who can perform a move more flawless than other but on the other hand someone can perform a move that they cant so its an equal battle when it comes to being the "best". I think the best performer in the world is the one who completely sucks at doing magic, flourishing or anything of the soft. Now before you critisize me this is why i beleive this. See i beleive this because the person who can't do anything is the person who works the hardest and takes critisism into consideration with open are, this way he/she can know what they are doing wrong and can better themselves for future performances. Now yes it does sound silly but think about it. When you first get into magic or anything you want to become the best so you have that drive and practice even an easy move such as an eardnase change until you can do it upside down hung from you ankles under water while cooking soup. That is what makes your the best. So in reality everyone contributes to being the "best" performer because in my mind there is no such thing as 1 best performer but there is something i like to call the "best" brotherhood. What i mean by that is because we all work so hard to try to create and perfect ideas that makes us one really strong community.
 
Why is it that magicians are selfish to their art? Why can't magicians (Usually) take criticism with open arms? Why does every magician act like they are the best magician ever? If you don't believe me on that last you are in denial. Or you just won't admit it... Let's discuss!

People in general dont take criticism very well. Its because it makes them feel like they are now a lower half of the community, scum to be rude.

The older guys who have noticed that what someone says is truly a gift take criticism very well and learn from it.

But the best magician ever thing i dont really get. It may be because of the High Egos we have but it might be because we want to be bigger than we really are.

Mikk
 
It is disheartening to see so many cocky magicians who think they're the best.
But let's be honest, there's people like that everywhere with anything.

I agree with you that we should take criticism with open arms.. as long as it's constructive of course. If someone posts a video and all someone says is, "this sucks", then obviously that's not going to help anything.

As it's been said, magic is an art. And as with any art form, it can be seen in many different ways.. in my opinion at least.
Take a Jackson Pollock painting... I may look at it and see one thing, as where someone else could look at it and see something completely different.
A magic trick may affect someone one way, and affect someone else totally different.

So there's the question, how do you really "critic" something that is subjective to each person?
Giving criticism to the technique is understandable. And giving idea's to the presentation should obviously be wanted. But in my opinion, it should not be said that someone's presentation of their art is completely wrong. Because, how can it be really?


I think you make an excellent point here. Let me elaborate, lets take a abstract painting that dosent really feel like anything specific at first glance.

And lets take a simple ˇmind reading feat. Force a card and the rest is purely patter.


When i look at the painting i see stars and the moon, me and a girl are walking hands together(i wish), but whats really on the picture is two triangles and a cubicle.


I let the spectator pick a card and jabber about how they will see the card in a movie.(you may be free to use the idea)

Now in both cases there isnt really much to see for the spectator. A fea geometrical shapes and a deck of cards and my eyes(which are amazing according to some ;) ) .

What comes in between, our imagination and thats the key to everything.

I would like to see someone who did a video and they loved it but didnt think that "i will deffenetly get some credit for that".
And thats the letdown when you find out that there is so much to improve on your seemingly amazing video.
And some stay with the fact that the video is awesome no matter what others say.

Thats a painful experience i learned.

I hope i made sense because i dont even remember what i just wrote but i hope its not some mambojambo.

Mikk
 
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