Factory Sealed - Review

Discussion in 'Product Questions and Reviews' started by jimbowmanjr, Oct 31, 2007.

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  1. You should put some kinda disclaimer in front of all your posts "I DO NOT OWN FS AND THESE OPINIONS ARE STRICTLY FROM COLLECTED INFORMATION AND NEGATIVE REVIEWS"



    True. And there is a reason why coins needn't be signed, etc in FS. The point of the effect is not to sign and prove. I don't perform magic to prove something to people. I perform to entertain and make them have a good time. I don't see what you are upto. I myself have wasted enough time with this and I would better off be practising or sleeping now.


    Read the positive reviews as well. People are VERY happy with it and are performing it in the way that it was taught to them. They didn't stop with just the method and go out and perform it. They looked at all the subtleties and all the valuable advice given on the video. Some people will be impressed, and some people just CANNOT be impressed. Look at both sides of it.

    Do what you want. Buy it second hand 'just to see if it is good' and come back and flame everyone. Show disrespect to highly respectful people. You talk like you're the authority in CIB effects and that your opinion is THE opinion. Let me tell you - it's not.

    Cheers,

    AJ
     
  2. Alright.

    Still technically true.

    The FAQ said no. Then went on to explain that it's not something you should be too concerned with. But apparently the reviewer didn't read that part. He disingenuously says, "yeah whatever. no you cant, basically".

    You know what that tells me? He's thinking more about method than presentation.

    Nice dig, jackass.

    Again, the reviewer is being rather disingenuous. I'm now convinced that he cares more about method than presentation.

    Perfectly legit. If you have the skill to pull off a switch convincingly, I see no reason not to use it. I see no reason why this should be a complaint.

    No conflict here.

    Same.

    No reason this should be a problem.

    The demo videos clear that up rather effectively don't they.

    No conflict.

    Kenton Knepper's Wonder Words work miracles here. I use them to actually convince people they can feel the copper coin and the silver coin switching places.

    No conflict.

    No conflict.

    It's still examinable. And clean-up isn't really a hassle provided you have proper audience management skills.

    No conflict.

    This just reinforces my statement that there are no bad effects, only bad magicians.

    Justin Miller has performed this effect beautifully and gotten great reactions. Not because he's lying to us, but because he's a great magician and performer.

    The reviews you're taking as gospel are hardly what I would call neutral. I see problems with all of them, but you're latching onto them because they tell you what you want to hear.

    I'd say you're everything you profess to hate.
     
  3. arvindj227,

    You cannot expect every review to be positive. This is the real world. Get real.

    Of course, there are positive reviews. Most of the postive reviews mentioned that it works great with laypeople. Good, excellent! Almost all other CTBs fries laypeople.

    Some positive reviews said it is great if you "add on" to it. The point is you have to add on other techniques from other CTB (which is NOT taught in FS)

    I think people would want to know what FS really is, without all those "add ons" from other CTBs.

    It is a CTB with a slow penetration that was covered by the hand. The "factory sealed" part is not convincing as you cannot let them inspect and break the seal. Big signed coins are totaly out of the questions.

    Of course, the penetration still fries people, like every other CTB.

    Steerpike,

    I do think that it would be a stronger effect if you can sign the coin. Just look at bullet, people keep mentioning it is great because you can use a signed coin. It is not about method. It is about the impact of the effect.

    If they see their signed coin inside the bottle, they will really go nuts.

    We are talking about a bottle switch here, not a deck switch. Have you tried doing a bottle switch before? It is NOT easy.

    First of all you have to find matching bottles. (which is hard, as you don't know which bottle the audience would give you.) You can try to influence their choice of bottles but again it is very risky.

    Then you have to pull off the switch. It is not as simple as you think it is, especially if you are doing this close up on the streets. Heck, even Criss Angel flashed when he did a bottle switch in his TV special.

    And to all those street magic lovers out there, I don't think a bottle switch is practical to them.

    There is a problem when people might thought that you can hold the bottle vertically and penetrate it from the side of the bottle (and you can see the coin sinking down the bottle which is much more visual in my opinion). Other CTBs have done that before, hence people might get confuse.

    The fact is, you can only have the coin penetrate in the bottom of the bottle. (If you hold it horizontally, the side becomes the bottom)

    Yes, of course if you use Kenton Knepper's Wonder Words (NOT taught in the DVD), you can influence your audience to make them feel things you want them to feel.

    But for most other CTBs, you don't even need the wonder words as people can really see the penetration.

    You have to use wonder words for FS, because the penetration is fully covered by the hand. They did not see the penetration at all.

    This thing was advertise as visual, and yet the penetration is covered.

    Of course another method is taught in the DVD, but you cannot show the coin and bottle as seperate objects right before the penetration.

    I agree with you that clean up is not a big issue here. Almost CTBs need clean ups anyway.

    Before the release of FS, some people are bashing other CTBs because those CTB need a clean up. Rumors about FS ending perfectly clean are all over the place.

    It would be nice to inform those people that, like all other CTBs, you need to do a clean up.


    In my opinion, they are indeed neutral. You even help to prove that point.

    Look at how many "no conflicts" you put in your post. You only disagree with a small part of the review (and I responded to that in my post)
     
  4. A Neutral Review

    Before I start, I'd like to say I don't know Nick Verna, don't know Matthew Mello, don't know Ellusionist, or don't even know Brad Christian. I am not getting paid to do this review and I'm not friends with the creator.

    With that said, I purchased FS recently and am happy with the purchase. Sure, it has similarities to Impervious and every other CIB but that was to be expected. I learned a few things with the dvd and like the clever applications. It doesn't have to be factory sealed, and I'm certainly not going to agree that the coin has to be signed or bigger than the hole. You can see the reactions and decide yourself.

    If you like what you saw with the demo, get it! I've been practicing both versions of the penetration and it does look good! I'm going to field test it in a bit. My only complaint is it's a little pricey but that's the price of magic.
     
  5. Similarly it is none of your business to tear apart a review and make it go in all directions. I know all reviews are not positive, I know that very well indeed. If you want to share your opinions in such a manner, review it YOURSELF. And you'll know how it feels when someone comes along and does this. More so if it's your product.

    What is your point? Working with laypeople is the goal. Not all effects are designed to be magician foolers. This seems to be a bit on the border and from they way you are digging into it, it seems you are frustrated that you do not know the method already.


    YOU think. Do not speak as if you represent a community or a large group. There is a lotta stuff gone over on the video that will get you set to perform. You won't be left hanging in mid air once you've seen the whole thing.

    It's not convincing to WHO? You? You're just whining it seems. I'm sure I will have NO problems and such questions will not arise in my spectators heads if I perform this with practise and thought. Already mentioned, there is a reason to what you do. You don't NEED to have a signed card always do you? Doing a simple card reveal or a transpo doesn't call for a sign. You sound phobic and I think you should work on your presentation if you have this many doubts. Who knows, were you called out during a color change - "Hey, that's not my card, it looks like it, but I put it in the middle and that can't be it". Nuts..

    Again YOU think. There is a JUSTIFICATION for a signed or non signed coin. You think people know about variations? No they don't. If they've already seen a CIB before, then it would be better off not performing for them. If you're spectators are going to ask you whether you can turn the bottle upside down, stand on your hands, do it against gravity and signed, then you must reform your presentation. Such questions should NOT pop up in their heads when done properly.

    I'm sick of it. We all know wonder words is NOT taught on the DVD. Steerpike was just giving an example of using past experience to improvise. It will come in handy for those with the experience, however details and subtleties are gone over very well by Justin.

    Stop complaining. You can achieve what you want based on your goals of the effect. You don't need to be a pro to convince specs of some shortcomings during performance. Have you even read about the performance stories? Have you read about the mad reactions? That in itself should seal anyone's deal.

    Cheers,

    AJ
     

  6. Very well said my friend, very well said.

    Cheers,

    AJ
     
  7. #107 AndyAce, Nov 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2007
    arvindj227,

    I just read your post.

    I think you misunderstood my point there.

    I'm not saying FS cannot get good reactions. Like all other CTBs, it gets good reactions.

    Yes, you might not need to use big signed coins. You can still fry them without the use of big signed coins and real factory sealed bottles. But it will be a plus if you can do that. It is not necessary but it would make the effect more impossible.

    The point is not about laypeople. It is about magicians who wanted to buy FS.

    They have the right to know the short comings (which you already admit they exist) of an effect.

    Seems like you are covering up the short comings by saying that you can use elements from other CTBs to cover up the short comings.

    A nice and non bias review!

    The above is a neutral review! =)

    It mention clearly the limitation of FS. It cannot be factory sealed, cannot be done with big signed coins.

    However, without those elements from other CTBs (factory sealed, big signed coins), it still gets good reactions.

    The reviewer did not say misleading things like "you can do it on the spot with a borrowed bottle etc." That is very honest of him.

    The review focus on what FS is, instead of what FS could be if you add on other elements from other CTBs.

    My conclusion is, although FS cannot be done on the spot with borrowed bottles, cannot be done with big signed coins, cannot let the spectator inspect and break the seal, it is still a good effect as the penetration looks great to laypeople.

    It is a good CTB which will get you the reactions. I agree with that.

    Other CTBs can be done with big signed coins and can let the audience inspect and break the seal. The penetration was not covered in those CTBs too. Will those CTB get a greater reaction than FS? You would have to try both to find out.

    Which CTB do you prefer, it is up to the consumers to decide. But to me the choice is obvious.
     
  8. Jack, OPEN POST

    You there? You moderating anything? Is this the sort of thread we need to expect here? You find it OK that AndyAce (surprise, surprise) is exposing elements of the effects?

    I am expecting a more professional atmosphere between the two sites. I have had people request permission to discuss the pitfalls and shortcomings of T11 effects, the controversy with Digital Dissolve, and to be quite open with the effects to the point of discussing things that will at least partially expose the effects...is this how we are to co-exist? Is this how our sites are to grow? We keep this sort of thing under control, with moderation, at the Ellusionist website.

    How long are you going to allow this young man to be such a divisive presence on your boards? He is self-serving to the point that the work of no one else matters if it is not his own. How many of your closed threads have to do with his input?

    I would really like to know your thinking on this, and not the sort of non-response to gave to AJ in which you state that the rules are not always taken word for word. Either you have rules that you are enforcing, or you have no rules. Either this forum has a stand on ethics and morality, or it does not.

    I can be no more open and sincere than this...

    RJ
     
  9. RJ,

    before you continue can you please show me how am I exposing elements of the effect?

    I did not expose anything.

    I'm merely stating the limitations of FS and what FS can or cannot accomplish. How is that exposing?

    Exposing means you tell people the method of a particular effect.

    On the E forums people there are saying that other CTBs use the "resealing method" That is what I call direct exposure.

    If you can tolerate people shouting out methods in your forum, why can't you tolerate people stating the limitation of FS (no exposing of methods)?

    Let me say this one last time, I never once expose anything. The mods can be the judge. If you think I'm exposing something, just quote the post where I'm exposing the effect.

    You should not accuse people without any evidence.
     
  10. AndyAce we know which CIB/ CTB you prefer... hell you have plugged it on every forum out there. You have plugged it on youTube for other people CIB videos. I don't even have to mention its name because everyone here already knows it.
     
  11. That statement focus on the recent CTBs in general.

    Lucid Dream can be done with a big coin. Abyss 2 can be done with a factory sealed bottle, and a signed coin.

    Of course, there are CTBs that can be done with big signed coins plus a factory sealed bottle.

    The whole point is, those are the unique elements of those CTBs, which FS lacked.
     
  12. Lucid Dream can be done with a big coin with quite a bit of setup. So can any CTB.

    Abyss 2 can be done with a factory sealed bottle with prep work, not impromptu.

    Perhaps you missed the comparison section of my review on the Cafe? I would have thought you would have replied there to that thread too:

    Do you actually own either of those two? Or is this more second hand opinions to creat your opinion?

    --Jim
     
  13. Thank You All

    Thank you all for your kind words and interest in Factory Sealed.

    Factory Sealed was created, coined, and ©copyrighted long before many may know.

    It is extremely versatile. With the groundwork alone, you will be able to go beyond normal dimensions and generate reactions that are miraculous to those who gaze and spectate.

    Cheers to everyone who worked on this project!

    A special shout to AndyAce who loves it SO much...he can't stop talking about it.

    Peace on the Magical Streets,
    Nick V.
     
  14. Very true Jim, what I'm saying is this elements are present in those 2 CTBs.

    However, they are not present with FS.

    Of course, FS can be done with a big coin and real factory sealed bottle only IF it combine elements from those 2 CTBs.

    But after combining, FS is no longer FS. It is a hybrid of FS and Abyss.

    The point is, in the FS DVD, they will not teach you how to use a big signed coin etc. You also cannot use the let other people inspect and break the seal, unless you used methods found in other CTBs.

    Jim, since you are so happy and proud of this effect, then you should be open and honest about it's limitations.

    The penetration fries laypeople. Yes, I agree with that. That was confirmed from the reviews.

    However, you cannot do it with big signed coins, you cannot let people inspect and break the seal. People already said it cannot be done with what is taught in FS, and they even said it is not necessary.

    So what's the problem? Just face the reality that there are Factory Sealed has it's pros and cons.

    There is no need to cover up the cons by saying "if you put in other elements from other CTBs, the cons will be gone"
     
  15. #115 AndyAce, Nov 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2007
    Factory Sealed was created, coined, and ©copyrighted long before many may know.

    That is what I was talking about. This statement is very vague.

    You keep saying that it is versatile. Every CTB are versatile, if you put in other elements of CTB into it.

    People who purchased it said it only showed them 2 methods. I guess that is really versatile.

    Almost every CTB gets miraculous reactions.

    Sorry if I sound a bit work up about this. I just feel that it is very unfair to the other CTBs.

    You keep saying if you built on it, FS would be the greatest CTB. But the fact is, you have to use techniques developed by other CTB creators to "add on" to it to make FS great.

    Big signed coins, real factory sealed etc are all the hardwork of other CTB creators, but some people tried to claim credit for them by saying FS can do the same (which is NOT true, those are NOT taught in the DVD)

    FS cannot be done with big signed coins. You cannot let them inspect and break the seal. Face it.

    Of course you can do that, if you add in the methods taught in other CTBs.

    Can we be fair and open about this? Stop bringing up the "add on" thing, it is really unfair to the other CTBs.
     
  16. Cheers to the genuine article. Nothing compares to it. You CAN do performances that you once dreamed of with the 'real work' of Factory Sealed. The foundation is that strong. The BEST!
     
  17. Truth is, you can do this with a signed coin bigger than the neck, and have the spectator break the seal, while still having it set-up and ready to perform in under a minute.
     
  18. I am not saying that and have never said that actually. My point is this:

    If you are going to take what you are taught and leave it at that without exploring the possibilities capable with the information you have been given on Factory Sealed and Bullet then you are expecting to be spoon fed everything you do in magic. How many performers, real performers, just stick to what they are given and never push the boundaries of what they know about an effect? Zero would be my guess for any magician worth his or her salt.

    If you were to take the knowledge, sweat, and effort that Nick and Matt put into these creations in their complete entirety you would probably end up with a full 4-DVD set. Nick alone put in near a dozen different ways of doing Factory Sealed, you saw one of those ways in the demo video. Now take this as a hypothesis because I don't want to put words into Brad Christian's mouth here: The total sum of information and subtleties were run through the ringer to get as much critical information into a performance/teaching DVD as possible. In making a marketed effect there needs to be a fair amount of streamlining and pointed direction. Did everything Nick and Matt have ever done with Factory Sealed and Bullet make it into the final cut in these DVD's, no absolutely not and I don't think anyone will refute that assertion.

    Take what you are given here and explore the possibilities. To sit there and say: Ah well this is limited! No it isn't limited, you are limiting it because you want to define boundaries for everything when that is the complete opposite of how magic should work. I think this could be said for many magic effects out there that have their critics because people want to be short-sighted and narrow-minded about everything these days.

    --Jim
     
  19. Andy,

    If you want a fair and partial review, why don't you turn more to established professionals in the field who review magic releases for industry publications like, GENII or MAGIC?

    Let's go ahead and submit all of these CIBs to people like Jason England or John Lovick and see what they say?

    If you want to make a difference, you have to go to places where differences are made. If you find members of this forum who agree with you, chances are that they won't have any deciding influence in the big-boy magic community to do you any good.

    If you want to compete with the pros, then do it in the professional arena. You will accomplish nothing here.

    The only thing you've accomplished is gaining one or 2 sympathisers... everyone else seems to think you're an obsessed nutcase.
     
  20. #120 AndyAce, Nov 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2007
    Very true.

    The point is, that was NOT unique to FS and Bullet.

    What is FS? It is the effect that is taught in the DVD. Nothing more and nothing less.

    If you "explore the possibilites", and add the knowledge you have from other CTBs, that is great. But the end product will no longer be FS.

    It would be the combine effect of other CTBs plus FS.

    I'm not saying don't combine all the strengths of the CTBs and create the ultimate CTB.

    The point is, FS cannot claim the credit for it.

    Techniques like big signed coins, open middle penetrations, real factory sealed bottles are the hard work of other CTB creators.

    FS can never claim credit for all those elements.

    We already know that those elements are not found in FS. But if you join forces with other CTBs, you will have a great CTB in your hands.

    But without the methods of other CTBs, FS will just be FS.

    Once again, I'm not saying FS is a bad effect. From the reviews, I can see the reactions are good. But you must also admit that there are limitations to this wonderful effect (no big sign coins, cannot let people inspect and break the seal etc)

    You guys already said it is NOT neccessay for those big signed coins, real factory sealed bottle etc. Then why did you keep mentioning Factory Sealed can do that if you add on the elements of other CTBs?

    My conclusion is, FS is a great effect. Like all other CTBs, it has it's own pros and cons.

    It is not the best CTB, but also not the worse CTB. Like what Jim said you have to explore the possibilities. You have to know the methods taught in other CTBs. Don't expect FS to be "THE CTB".

    Look at other CTBs, then look a FS. Combine them and create your very own CTB.

    The end product might be the BEST CTB on the world.

    But that CTB is not FS, but rather the combination of all the great CTBs on the market.
     
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