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Discussion in 'Product Questions and Reviews' started by jimbowmanjr, Oct 31, 2007.
May I quote the same guy only a bit further in the thread?
He changed his mind.
Just in case you missed it two pages later this is Mitchell's follow-up once he went out and performed the effect:
And yet another quote from y2john on the Cafe
I realize things can get a bit muddled when you have the propaganda machine giving you bits and pieces of information hoping you won't actually go and look for the reviews yourself. Pretty neat how people can pick out a few negative comments and paint a picture isn't it? I could do this all day but I have some other things to work on. Let's talk about this review though right? Still waiting to see that remotely enforced....
Yes, of course Factory Sealed will get great reactions. Almost all decent CTB will get great reactions.
I'm not talking about the response of laypeople here.
I'm talking about information about FS that might be misleading.
Just look at the review below.
My point is there is some misleading points on the FAQs.
Magicians who are purchasing it have the right to know what FS can or cannot accomplish. It is not about methods, but rather how strong the effect is.
According to other neutral reviews,
FS cannot be done on the spot with a borrowed bottle.
FS cannot be done with a signed coin.
FS cannot be done with impromptu with a big coin.
FS cannot let the audience look at the seal and break the seal of the bottle.
I have the exact same words for you.
I have just posted a full review of Factory Sealed from talkmagic forum. It gave some interesting facts about FS.
Perhaps you can respond to that review?
What is the matter with you, Ace? In all honesty, you are easily the most annoying member I've ever seen post on a magic forum. Why? Because no matter what you're always going to try to find a way to downgrade E and everybody involved with them while making yourself and others look better. Just please, stop.
I try my hardest to stay away from posting anything that could be offensive, but with you I'm glad to make an exception. Ruin your reputation by performing Factory Sealed? Now that crosses way over the line of expressing your opinion and is just flat out offending Nick Verna.
STOP PRETENDING THAT PEOPLE ARE OUT TO GET YOU!!!
STOP TRYING TO ACT LIKE YOU WANT A TRUE HONEST DISCUSSION THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!
STOP ACTING LIKE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD, IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!
STOP PRETENDING THAT YOUR OPINION ISN'T BIASED AND THAT EVERYONE ELSE'S IS!!!
Finally, stop offending people and then I'll reconsider not offending you. Your posts always anger people, and now I've caved in too. Your posts always cause threads to go downhill...you'd think that you would have gotten the picture now. This post is a direct effect of your previous posts in this thread, so don't blame me for this thread continuing to go off topic. Your words were far too offensive to go unnoticed by me.
Hope you change your attitude towards certain things,
I'm just posting neutral reviews about the CTBs here.
Reviews that show both the pros and the cons. Reviews that shows that some of the information about FS can be misleading.
If you want all the reviews to be good, you are only kidding yourself.
If by posting those neutral reviews is offensive to you, I apologize
I see where you're coming from in that area, but that's not what my post was concerning. And besides, the possibilities of Factory Sealed are almost without limits. Just because it's not taught in the dvd, doesn't mean that you can't find a way to do it. Think about that, or maybe just buy the dvd and you won't have to play the guessing game about what's true and what's not. Just remember, you can do more with Factory than what's taught on the dvd. Way more.
Thanks for staying on topic.
The fact is they are NOT taught on the DVD. The fact is only 2 methods are taught in FS.
You have to add your own knowledge of CTBs to make it possible.
If you own Abyss 1, you can also built on it so that it become a coin through factory sealed bottle.
It is very convenient to say: "if you built on the groundwork of Factory Sealed, you can come up with this and that"
You can do way more with other CTBs than what's taught on the DVD or pdf too.
Good points(I like that this topic has regained its meaning). But I still think that plenty, actually more than enough, is taught on the dvd. I recommend you buy it. Oh yeah, and can I ask what specifically your problems(or whatever you'd like to call them)are with Factory Sealed. I'd like to clear some of this up...
Let's hope the discussion continue to stay on the right track. =)
Actually after reading the reviews, I already have an idea of what FS is about. (effect wise)
However, some reviews have directly opposite facts of FS.
Can someone just hand you their own factory sealed bottle and you can do FS right on the spot?
From some reviews the answer is no.
However, Jim said it could be done.
This is the confusing part. And it also means someone is lying here.
What are your views on this?
Well, I guess that it is possible, but I wouldn't recommend it. This is the only weak point to Factory in my opinion, but it's really no biggy when you consider what the rest of the effect brings to the table. After all, melting a borrowed coin that's bigger than the bottles mouth through the bottom/side of the bottle...which is "factory sealed"... does make a fantastic effect. The set-up take's literally maybe 2 seconds longer than that of the original Bullet. Speaking of which, is also a great effect. Highly recommended. But anyway, I wouldn't count on performing Factory as impromtu as mentioned.
The effect really is in a perfect equilibrium with it's practicalness though.
Thanks for your answer. =)
Well actually it's only the bottom. The "side" is actually the bottom if you hold the bottle horizontally.
Ha, yes but in version one the coin actually penetrates the bottom side of the bottle
That's a pretty solid review. Thanks so much from someone who actually owns it and isn't jealous that they wish they created Factory Sealed.
It's nice to see solid info VS. complete childhood nonesense from people who spend their time talking smack.
Walking the walk is much harding than talking the talk no one cares to listen to anyway.
Thanks JimBowmanJr. for sharing your true thoughts on a product you own and tried yourself.
I can't say I disagree with this. Some i don't have and don't care to have, but would agree with you fully on the ones i do have.
So it has been confirmed...by people you actually worked with Factory on the project and others who purachased it:
You can borrow the bottle.
You can do all kinds of worker style variations.
It is poosible to let the spectators examine immediately and tamper with the seal and produce results where they vouch that they even broke the seal themselves.
All this with many ways to penetrate the coin..even openly visually, cleanly while completeey 360 degrees surrounded.
All impromptu with no gimmciks with the proper practice of course, naturally.
There isn't anything remotely close to this.
The legendary/mythical Factory Sealed is in fact true.
I'll be using this upon learning it fully.
I understand that the 'setup' is not difficult to do and technically possible on the fly, and while avoiding exposure, there is no way to do it subtly so you have to rely on the audiance being distracted at one point. For good performers this will probably be easy, but it should be mentioned that it's not the easiest thing in the world. A signed coin would be even harder. I'm not a magician and mainly got this effect because I carry cards around all the time so somehow I got a magicians rep without actually performing magic so I occasionally get random tricks to entertain people. My inexperiance being, that I do not think I could pull off the setup of this trick on the fly, I just don't have the audiance managment skills and such. It's possible, but I just think that people should be aware that it's not as simple as glancing the bottom card for a setup of a card trick.
TheInfomer, I think it would be more informative (no pun intended) if you include other neutral reviews.
The neutral reviews are from people who actually purchased the product too. You seems to think that those neutral reviews are not valid for some reason.
Seems like those "excellent" reviews are valid
Those neutral reviews are "chilhood nonesense"
Get real. Jim is known to be with very good terms with the creator of FS. This might sway his opinion on FS.
Hence I would trust reviews from neutral parties more.
And Jim's comparision of FS with other CTBs, is one of the most bias review ever.
He did not own some of the other CTBs he mentioned. Furthermore he did not base his comment on other real reviews of the CTBs. He did not list what what each and every CTB can or cannot accomplish. It was not an attempt to compare the CTBs, but an attemp to try his best to make FS look good.
Here is my view on the various CTBs.
This is what I meant by misleading informations.
You can do all kinds of worker style variations with OTHER CTBS too.
From the reviews, this cannot be done. Unless you use another tactic from ANOTHER CTBs.
Only 2 ways are taught in the DVD. Only 2.
If Ellusionist spent 2 years on this project, why don't they just include all the bonus handling and stuff?
I am thinking maybe the Ellusionist don't want to include them due to copyright issues.
Yes, you can make improvements to FS (you can make improvements to ALL OTHER CTBs too) but you have to use techniques you learn from OTHER CTBS.
That might be why Ellusionist did not include all the "extra handlings" in the teaching. Thye might be accused of ripping off other CTBs.
Like what I said earlier, it is very convienent to say "If you add more work to FS you can do this and that"
The truth is, with a little more work, the same can be done for almosr EVERY OTHER CTBS.
What is the FS that is really taught in the DVD?
From the reviews, it is a CTB that cannot be done on the spot with a borrowed bottle.
It is not factory sealed. Other people cannot look at the seal and break it.
You cannot use big signed coins.
There are only 2 penetrations. One is fully covered by the hand. The other looks just like Chris handling in Impervious.
That is it. That is what they teach you in the DVD.
Of course, if you own other CTBs, you can add them to FS to make FS stronger.
Same thing, if you own Abyss, you can add it to Impervious to make Impervious stronger.
If you own Impervious, you can use it to make Abyss stronger.
Get the picture?
It is not fair to just said FS can do much more, and make it a thing that is unqiue to FS.
The truth is, you can do the SAME thing to other CTBs. A little modification to Impervious and aquatic will get you a effect that closly resembers FS. (I have seen magicians done that and post a video of it)
Can you then say that by adding stuff to aquatic, it is then as strong as FS?
Of course not! The logic is flawed. You should compared what is taught in aquatic and what is taught in FS.
If you just look at what is being taught on the DVD, then this statement is not true at all. In fact, FS is weaker than most other CTBs.
But if you combine elements of all the other recent CTBs on FS, of course you will get the strongest CTB ever.
If you combine all the elements of other recent CTBs on Abyss, you will get a legendary CTB too!
My point is, take away all the other elements found in other CTBs. Just look at what FS really is.
The DVD only show you 2 methods. No big signed coins. Bottle not factory sealed. Cannot be done on the spot with a borrowed bottle.
That is FS, nothing more and nothing less.
The set up is extremely difficult to pull off on the spot, especially if people just hand you the bottle and people are burining your hands and the bottle.
Who are you to give a review on your own product? That's called blatant advertising and is against the rules of this forum.
First of all, Jim gave a comparison of the various CTB. In my opinion his comparison might be abit bias. My effect was included in his comparision too.
I just want to clarify what Jim said about my CTB is not true. He did not own the effect and he did not base his comments about my effect on reviews from people who purchased it.
Moreover, it was not a review of my CTB. I merely compared all the 7 CTBs that are on the market. Each have their own pros and cons. The main focus is not on my CTB.
If the mods still thinks that it is not acceptable, feel free to remove some parts of the comparision.
I have a feeling this might end up being the focus... so please just leave it to the mods and continue with the discussion on FS.
Ok back on topic!
Btw, I just found out that Ellusionist did not have a forum for FS.
It might seems strange, because they keep saying with additional work and techniques (NOT taught in the DVD) you can make FS do this and that.
However, I think the Ellusionist is doing the right thing here.
If you have a discussion forums about how you can add on to FS, you will end up exposing methods used in other CTBs too.
This would turn the special FS forum into a forum where people expose methods of other non E CTBs. It'll look like those exposing magic websites. -_-
Since you have to use elements of other CTBs to add on to FS, it would be best NOT to have a forum discussing the "add ons" to FS.
Don't expect to pick up FS and do all the things some people here claimed. You would need to know techniques from other CTBs as well (which is not taught in the DVD)
That makes no difference whatsoever. Jim is a RESPECTED person in the magic community and on multiple forums. Just because he knows the creator doesn't mean that he will plug him just for the sake of it. His experience and past behavior shows that he is an excellent person with credible views.
Ok listen. Jim liked the product and made a good review of it. Remember, he does not work for E, or for Nick, neither do I. So there is no reason for him to make something 'look good'. There are positive reviews and there are negative reviews of every product out there. There's no reason for you to jump on every single positive thing and tear it out. You do not even OWN the product and you are just gathering information about it from various sources in an attempt to reconstruct the whole effect based on your knowledge. Many people are irritated by the way you jump in on the CIB thread. I have even discussed this with the staff of other forums and here as well. You are advertising your product sometimes directly sometimes indirectly - so please follow the rules first.
Buy the effect and find out yourself if you are so interested. And then come and give a review. You're not interested in this effect and you say you will not be buying it then why are you so out for blood? You're not interested so leave it.
All your facts are based on other people's facts. It's very easy to pull up negative view points and quote them. Why not go to their reviews and applaud them. Why bring it over here?
I cannot speak for Jim but look at this in this way. You do not own the effect either.
You can compare the 7 effects, sure. Put your product in there as well and plug it. Advertise it all you want. You're getting the attention in E's CIB review thread, wow. Congratulations. We all know it's not acceptable and the mods over here are quite busy and are a few in number and may not be able to go over every single thing. So if you have any respect for the thread and the main topic, go there and remove all your mentions of your product that you have posted.
Yes, E does not have a forum for the CIB's because they have not found it necessary. However, the users of the forums have the advantage of being able to directly contact the creators for any help with the effect. I think that is just fantastic. EVERYTHING cannot be taught on a dvd, it would run forever. Magic is about creating something unique - something individual, not about copying what is given to you forever. As you keep performing, you will learn to improvise and come up with variations to help you better. Sometimes it is not NECESSARY. As whatever is on the video is sufficient and extra things are not required. Such as over convincing.
I doubt anyone I will perform to will ask me to use a different coin, then again do it with a different bottle, then do it again with a signd coin, and go on about it. Except you maybe. The effect itself will be shown only once I will ensure that the experience is an out of the world one - as with any of my performances. Look at it from a spectators point of view and an effect point of view. If you like it, get it. If you think you can achieve such reactions with your spectators (and you can as shown in the previews) then more power to you to get it.
ps - sorry for stealing your reply format
I knew you would continue to focus on me instead. I already said leave it to the mods. If they think it is not acceptable for me to compare the 7 CTBs here, they can edit my post.
The whole point is
I just want to clarify what Jim said about my CTB is not true. He did not own the effect and he did not base his comments about my effect on reviews from people who purchased it.
Although I do not own FS, I do based my comments on other reviews. But Jim did not based his comments about my CTB on any reviews.
You missed the whole point.
I think everything cannot be taught on the DVD not because of the time limit. But because Ellusionist might get themselves involved in some copyright issues if they do so.
Elements of other CTBs have to be used, in order to "add on" to FS.
That is the point. FS alone is only a mediocre CTB at best. You have to add all the other techniques from other CTBs to make it look better.
Without the elements of OTHER CTBs, FS is just another average CTB.
And people have to get other CTBs, before they can "add on" to FS.
No, the solution is simple. Use a big signed coin and a real factory sealed bottle from the start. The impact is huge, trust me. However the same thing cannot be done with FS.
Big signed coins, real factory sealed bottles, no cvoer penetrations are all TAUGHT in other CTBs. You don't have to try to figure out new methods and do add ons if you get the other CTBs. Everything is included, unlike FS.
And now it's not about the response of laypeople. Any decent CTB will get reactions.
This is about what FS can or cannot accomplish. This is about the information potential buyers received. If the information they received are misleading, it is very unfair to them.
I have to spent USD$29.95 just to know if the Ellusionist is making misleading claims? A few people have already purchased FS just to know if the hype is true. And they are disappointed.
One of them want to sell me the 2nd hand FS. Who knows, maybe I will really get it from him and gave a review on it myself.
But the other neutral reviews I have seen on other forums already proved that FS is just another average CTB.