Forcing dice

Hello,

I finally figured out ( it think so ) this effect: http://youtu.be/PthQAuGMxgk
It was one of my favourite effects done in that show along the I don't remember his name ( the one with people and tables and food and envelopes which btw I was so dissapointed to find out the secret of).
Long story short, I want a set of dice to perform Mark's trick. Would you recommend me buying some ( idk where to find them ) or pay someone to build them for me ( from wood or something ).
 
Why not come up with your own trick instead of using someone else's material?

I think thats a bit harsh.
1. Creativity comes slowly and for some people its more difficult than others.
2. The more magic you know and perform, the greater your skill set to use when creating.
3. Its not like the trick in question is that new or original, its a take on a classic plot which many magicians perform.
4. How much of your material is completely your own, new, original?

How many effects have you bought of T11 or another website or magic shop? - surely that isnt 'coming up with your own trick'.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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I think thats a bit harsh.
1. Creativity comes slowly and for some people its more difficult than others.
2. The more magic you know and perform, the greater your skill set to use when creating.
3. Its not like the trick in question is that new or original, its a take on a classic plot which many magicians perform.
4. How much of your material is completely your own, new, original?

How many effects have you bought of T11 or another website or magic shop? - surely that isnt 'coming up with your own trick'.

I don't think it was harsh. Perfectly valid point, considering they are intending to rip someone's pet effect. At least add something that makes it original to whomever is going to perform it.

"Creativity comes slowly...its more difficult than others."

I agree with this point however not in this context. If it isn't on the market don't replicate it. It is ethics. Plus, you can copy an act but it won't mean you'll be able to pull it off as well as that performer. Case in point, Piff The Magic Dragon and Piff The Fail Dragon.

"Its not like the trick in question is new or original..."

Besides the point. Most "new" magic are just old principles reworked or even just retaught under a new name. Doesn't give me the right to perform the reworked effects verbatim without purchasing it. I can however recognize the method and then construct a presentation around that principle that is entirely my own.

"How much of your material is completely your own..."

Logical Fallacy Of Begging The Question, automatically makes this invalid.

Your last question is also irrelevant seeing as we are discussing a presentation that is not being sold to my knowledge. However, that isn't to say that the gimmick or principle isn't in use. Now to actually contribute something to this thread here comes my advice.

I originally learned this principle through a dvd put out by Marc Spelmann. If I remember correctly it was for a bank night routine. If the OP wants to do something a bit more unique without actually putting any effort into it I'd suggest researching the Bank Night plot. I'll give you the basics, spectators are presented four different options and are told one of the options yields reward;
the other three hold nothing of value. The spectators each pick an envelope until only one remains, which the magician/mentalist, keeps for himself. No matter what the spectators chooses they always loose and the magician walks away with the money or reward.

Now take that idea and apply it to the cell phones. Do you see similarities? Now what could you do to change it around and make it unique to you? Perhaps instead of cell phones use a business card or even, if your audience has one on them a social security card, and instead of smashing the envelops light em on fire. Look, just applied very little brain power and created the same trick as this performer's but made it unique enough that it isn't readily recognizable as the routine shown on television.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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Kudo's Keo

I fear we have someone that will never be satisfied with simplicity let alone the demand of creative investment when it comes to the magic they do. I've given Ady numerous resources for getting an education and yet we get the excuse of not being able to get books locally. . . when kids in rural jungle villages manage to buy such things via the net I can't understand why he's so unique. Of course, it might take a bit longer for postal delivery of physical items vs. instant gratification, but that wouldn't be the case when it comes to sources like Lybrary.com that's 95% instant download on numerous topics, not just magic. Chris has done exceptionally well making material available the world over and all you need is a debit card and PayPal account . . . I think you can even send money via check or money order these days, to charge a PayPal account if you can't use plastic. So solutions exist but some folks are looking for a.) perfection without personal investment of time & effort; and b.) information access without commitment. . . or so it would seem.

Oli, I have to agree to what's been said, the challenge wasn't harsh enough; especially when you consider how redundant Ady is with the constant barrage of questions along these lines and never being satisfied with the information offered. He has access to resources but refuses to both, recognize such let alone employ them (it's much easier to constantly ask questions and discount what is said).

Tricked Dice . . . there are dozens of types that range in cost from a few dollars to over a thousand. Right now there is a set of top end electronically controlled dice that retail at around $2,200.00 but it's not logical to suggest such a piece to someone that don't have the cash nor credentials that make them worthy to own such a top end treasure. . . and yes, that came out harshly and even judgmental because I've seen a particular pattern that must be thwarted; none of us can help someone that's not willing to put some effort into helping themselves. They've been given a "Fifty-Cent" solution that they don't believe in so of course it won't work for them -- ye of little faith. . . a master magician/mentalist would jump on such a basic method, couple it with dice switching methods (maybe) and get away with creating the miraculous. The wannabe looks at such simplicity, snarls and demands something more sophisticated that's frequently outside their price range and qualifications.

Yes, I've mentioned "Qualifications" twice now. Unlike many in today's magic world, I don't believe that just anyone should own any piece out there they can afford to pay for, I think they must earn that privileged by working their way through the ranks and actually LEARNING THE CRAFT vs. taking the "easy way out". Those electronic dice I mentioned, can fail . . . then what do you do?

I've seen some rather famous performers fall flat on their butts because they relied on electronics far too much and hadn't a clue how to duplicate a given routine manually, without the fancy gadgets. There they were in a room of paid patrons and unable to deliver a program. People that have worked their way up the food chain and "earned" the right to feature such "catalysts" in their shows know how to compensate and get out of a would-be catastrophe. As Maven would say, "Always Have an Out!"

Most pros actually rehearse alternative routines for those times that something has gone afoul . . . that includes stage acts. There's a famous tale of Doug Henning having to change in mid-steam, a certain production piece filled with animals, because a Tiger got loose back stage and was killing all the other critters. Poor Doug was having to pick through the little dead and bloody bodies rolling into the box via conveyor belt while attempting to keep his composure and not barfing all over the place . . . that's showmanship! But that's also proof of Doug's having EARNED his position vs. the poor little rich kids that have it all handed to them (and rarely make it anywhere).

I've probably ticked a few folks off with this reply, but I just can't ignore what I'm seeing and its repetition. We're not here (especially the older and more experienced of us) to hold anyone by the hand and escort them to glory. We give them the best advice we can and point them to resources, it's up to them to get off their duff and use those resources alongside their mind.

When I was in my teens I saw Doug Henning do the MisMade Lady Illusion. I wanted it for my show but had no idea of the method or where to get plans for it nor could I afford the John Gaughan or Owen magic prices. I came up with my own solution based on what I'd known about big illusions and body parts. It would be about three years after the fact that I'd learn the proper method and shook my head as to how dumb it was (while kicking myself for having fallen for it). . . simplicity was the key and while my method was simple and ultimately became a commercial variant, it was in no way as basic as what Chuck Jones originally came up with.

The point is, I used that creative factor Keo speaks of in the above. It's how magic evolves and grows.

Ady, there's a man you really need to talk to -- Roni Shackney -- the name may not mean anything to most, but his story is phenomenal in that he had to literally invent everything he needed when it came to doing magic. He was one of the first major performers out of Israel and founder of the Israeli Magic Society. He had a heck of a lot less than you are working with and created a sensation the world over in five short years. His various students are some of today's bigger names in Magic & Mentalism such as Yigal Mesika and Guy Bavli.

You've got a lot to learn and it starts by taking action other than asking questions on a forum; use what you know and make it work for you. Then, as you grow and find greater access, you will be able to do the effects and things that are currently fantasy.
 
Craig, brilliant post, and having read yours and Keo's posts i must say i agree. I suppose i didnt fully think it through when i made my reply to ChrisT. Im only 18 and not been doing magic that long so i really do want to learn as much as possible about magic. i appreciate the advice that you and others experienced members of this forum give
 
Dec 18, 2007
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Craig, brilliant post, and having read yours and Keo's posts i must say i agree. I suppose i didnt fully think it through when i made my reply to ChrisT. Im only 18 and not been doing magic that long so i really do want to learn as much as possible about magic. i appreciate the advice that you and others experienced members of this forum give

Thanks Oli, unfortunately Ady doesn't get it. . . you should see the scathing IM I got from him this morning. I think I must have pushed a few buttons when I made that last post.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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I'm a bit late responding to this as Craig and Keo have already done a good job of it. Also, I'm not hammering on you, Oli, because I see you've already processed what they said and have an idea of what I was aiming for. My responses are just to provide my side of it.

1. Creativity comes slowly and for some people its more difficult than others.

If one uses crutches exclusively, they won't ever learn to walk properly. In this case, using someone else's material is the crutch. This is why we see so many cookie-cutter magicians these days. They see an act, duplicate it, and then say, "That's good enough."

2. The more magic you know and perform, the greater your skill set to use when creating.

Agreed. The problem is that when one focuses on copying routines they fall into a trap. That trap is this: You learn things in specific contexts. A perfect example is the Invisible Deck. It seems like everyone does basically the exact same thing with that gimmick. However, it can be used for so many other things that very few people think of, because most people only ever see it in the context of 'The Invisible Deck.'

However, if they were just handed the gimmick without any context, what might they come up with?

3. Its not like the trick in question is that new or original, its a take on a classic plot which many magicians perform.

All the more reason to avoid it. Why perform what many others are performing? I'm probably seeing things through rose tinted glasses, but it seems like a couple hundred years ago, each magic act was far more unique than they are now.

4. How much of your material is completely your own, new, original?

Actually, when doing a professional show, I try never to use a presentation I've seen someone else use. I don't ever want my audience to say, "That's great! Like what [Famous Magician] does!" While I use principles and gimmicks created by other people, I strive to present them in a way that is uniquely me. That way, if someone steals my material, their audiences will say, "That's what Christopher does.."

Do I succeed? Not always. I fall into the same traps as other people; I am human after all. But the difference I see is that I see this as a failing, whereas others seem to see this as success. Over the past month I've had some major epiphanies regarding performance and I have begun a process of tearing down everything I used to do and throwing out most of it. I am completely reinventing my character and performance style to be more meaningful for my audiences and satisfying to perform. So far, what I have performed from this new mind frame, I have never seen another magician do. Is it unique? Probably not. I'm sure there are mentalists out there doing it, but I've never seen them. Also, I'm 100% positive there are people who don't call themselves performers doing these things, but they are not in the world of magicians or mentalists.

[/quote]How many effects have you bought of T11 or another website or magic shop? - surely that isnt 'coming up with your own trick'.[/QUOTE]

In the context of my paid gigs, far fewer than you'd think. Lately, none. I haven't purchased a trick that I intended to put into my show in over a year. I buy things for myself, sure. I have an adoration of card tricks, and really enjoy learning and performing them for friends, but I don't do them in my 'professional' work. They don't fit the character. For professional work I have more material than I need already. In that context, I only buy stuff that teaches me theory and the performance skills that I need. That way I can hone my work to its utmost potential.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Don't sweat it Oli. It doesn't matter to me if you've been doing magic for one week to several years, no matter what the experience level, there is always a chance that I'll take away something of worth. But keep up the great work and enjoy the long magical journey.

Thanks Oli, unfortunately Ady doesn't get it. . . you should see the scathing IM I got from him this morning. I think I must have pushed a few buttons when I made that last post.

What a shame.
 
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