I don't completely understand it...

[Rabid]

They've got good mods there....

Why thank-you. Yes...I am good. I'll go one step further...I'm great. Not great like Alexander was great but great nonetheless. A like-to-keep-myself-to-myself kinda' great; a don't like to big myself up too much and would much rather just keep myself out of the lime-light kinda' great. I'm too modest to just come out and shout at people about how great I am and then expect....?....


Oh.....


Bugger.


For all those that think that think that E doesn't have 'only' great effects, I could say the same thing about here and every other place in the world, as that kind of nonsense is purely subjective so it's a rubbish argument.

For all those that think E is just for beginners, I could say the same thing about here and every other place in the world as everyone has to start somewhere + I think a lot of people are getting the store and the forums confused as they're two separate entities (and you'll learn more and progress further with sound advice from the forums and the knowledge therein than just buying some products....same as here), therefore it's a rubbish argument.

For all those that believe E's stuff is too expensive, I could say the say the same thing about here and every other place in the world as that argument depends on how much money you're willing to part for a product. Personally, I think beer is far too expensive...don't stop me drinking gallons of the stuff. And anyway, what's wrong with magic being expensive? I think it's too cheap more often than not. If it were all much more expensive it would cancel out once and for all all the dribble about laymen coming on the internet to buy the secret to the trick you performed for them the night before....which is another rubbish argument.

For all those that believe that E is just in it for the sell and no other reason, I could say the same thing about here and every other place in the world as people have to make money to live therefore requiring some sort of sale to facilitate the making of that money. Does that mean they don't care if you become a better magician? Please....Again, that's what the forums on such sites are for, to grow knowledge and understanding and to help people out; to advise on the appropriate direction for someone to take depending on what they're into and to guide them to great information contained in other DVD's, books or even...."NO! Don't say it's true!!?"......other sites. You think that I wouldn't direct someone here if they were interested in a really good Torn & Restored card and didn't mind using gimmicks? Of course I would.



Think on this:
If we all spent even a tenth of the time - discussing magic and trying to help each other out - that we spend bashing each other and trying to create a ridiculous rivalry between two, three, four or five places...then imagine where we'd all be now, as magicians and people?



Anyway...back to the topic at hand:

So, I'm really great and cool n' stuff and.......................




Rabid

 

[ballerO8]

Bravo. Well said Rabid. Those who bash honestly do not have a unique thought of their own. They do it because they see others do it and the cycle continues.

 

[Brad Henderson]

I actually disagree with the idea that a beginner should get this series. It presents the typical dilemma of too much information. Sure, you could take the conventional method of learning it in perfect order, chapter by chapter by chapter. But that's tedious, and learning isn't supposed to be tedious.

I learned to be a better performer by actually, you know, performing. Trial by fire. I liken it to my brother who dramatically enhanced his ability to converse in Spanish by living in Mexico for 6 months.

We all love to recommend that Tarbell Course immediately, but there's two things most of us forget.

1. Holy **** is that a lot of information to take in at once!

2. Harlan Tarbell originally made it a correspondence course. You had plenty of time to handle one lesson before the next one showed up, creating a consistent pattern of effort, learning, and pay-off.

Steer,

You are still far too young and far to inexperienced to have any ability to evaluate the wisdom of your choices. Twenty years from now, get back to us and let us know if you would have done it the same way all over again.

But to this nonsense of "too much information":

The idea that one can become a magician by learning a trick at a time with no regard to a development of a basic well rounded foundation is bull****.

I could theoretically sit down and train myself to play Scott Joplin's The Entertainer on the piano. I would have a great song I could whip out at parties, and I am sure everyone would find both the tune and my performance very entertaining.

But, does that make me a piano player?

Do I have the skills now to play other songs? Do I have the ability to pick up a book of music and master more material? Or, if I want to learn more, do I need to sit down and hunt and peck my way until I have another tune down by rote?

And when it comes to performance, how musical will I be? What if the only performance of that song I ever heard was by one person? What if that person was not a classically trained musician but had only learned to peck out the notes himself?

When I was a beginning trumpet player, I bought the Arban book. This classic text began with whole not based songs, and progressed to pieces I still find challenging to this day.

Was my growth hindered by having access to more material than I could master at the time? Was I forced to go through it page by page as you suggest? (The answer is no.) Did it help to have resources available to me that allowed me to solve other problems that developed, and allowed me to see further down the road to where my skills can/should be headed?

Steer, if "too much information" were a bad thing, then we wouldn't have successfully used the Arban book for years - because it would not have worked.

The same is true of a myriad of other method books.

As always, I appreciate your passion, but you do not have the experience or authority to give credible advice.

Brad Henderson

 

[Steerpike]

I never actually suggested that we not use 13 Steps, or the Tarbell Course, or Mark Wilson's, or Card College, or Prism, or Modern Coin Magic, etc. My suggestion is based on my own experiences that when beginning a skill, you need a direction and a series of mini-accomplishments to maintain momentum in motivation.

I gave up on two different musical instruments because I was only given a bunch of sheet music and told to memorize them. I never got any actual lessons that were useful to me in becoming a musician. Hell, I almost gave up on guitar for the same reason. I wanted to play rock and metal, but my teacher stubbornly kept on trying to teach me nothing but jazz anyway with no eye toward music theory or analyzing stylistic elements of the bands that had a personal effect on me. He just had me memorize the damn songs. There were no lessons in improving my playing technique, music history, chord progressions, improv, relations between genres. The only really useful thing he taught me was how to recognize a major and minor scale. And this was over the course of 4 semesters of lessons! I had a goal, but no map to get there.

I would also like to say it in plain language:

The idea that one can become a magician by learning a trick at a time with no regard to a development of a basic well rounded foundation is bull****.

I suggested no such thing.

Do you know what I recommend a beginner instead of Card College? Royal Road. I recommend it for the following reasons:

1. Teaches the fundamentals and essentials.
2. Has enough material to build countless routines from.
3. It's a smaller investment, which is less intimidating to a beginner.
4. It provides the springboard into more advanced card magic.
5. Should you choose not to specialize in cards, it still gives an adequate platform.

In part, I liken it to my experience in martial arts. Yes, I am well aware how much magicians hate it when their art is compared or made analogous to anything, but when has that stopped me.

I studied Shaolin Kung-Fu and Northern Eagle Claw for about 4 or 5 years before I was forced to cease lessons due to time and money constraints. Do you remember all those campy chop-sake movies with hokey names for weird techniques? I learned moves such as the panther claw, phoenix fist, dragon claw, crane's beak, and outside crescent kick. On only a couple occasions did I ever have to fight in self-defense. When I did, I found myself only using 5 moves. Straight punch, upset punch, backhand fist, snap kick, and side kick.

Yes, I learned the advanced moves and at some point in time I may find a use for them. But for the most part I only had use for the moves beginners have to memorize. And that is why I recommend magicians buy Royal Road before investing in Card College.

It is my own experience from studying skills and topics such as magic, mentalism, music, guitar, singing, filmmaking, photography, fiction writing, foreign languages, handwriting analysis, psychology, and men's style that leads me to say that a lot of conventional wisdom isn't nearly as effective as most people think it is.

Why does everyone assume that when I say these things that I'm just pulling it out of my ass?

 

[splitspades]

i used to like ellusionist when i started out in magic, but now i don't really like them at all
they overprice alot of things. for example the trick axis change shouldn't of been on sale. the only situation i think you can use that change is for a video. i would never perform it in public because the angles are terrible. they also make it like every trick they release is a must buy.
books are a hundred times better than any of the ellusionist dvds. mark wilsons book. that has over 300 hundred great effects for like $25. i rather have 300 tricks than one trick for 5 dolaars more

 

[Brad Henderson]

Steer,

If you were going on a journey and needed to prepare for the trip, who would/should you listen to: the guy who is one mile down the road or the traveler who has been there and returned?

I appreciate how badly you want to be the board's iconoclast, but you are in no position of experience to be able to contradict what 'conventional wisdom' says. And while I am sure you feel passionately about your areas of interests, you need to learn that what works (or what you 'think' works) for you is in no way representative of what is or should work for another.

The problems you experienced in your studies is not the fault of the pedagogy, it is the fault of the student.

In short, you are the last person who should be ofering advice or pontificating on the forum.

Right now you are a decent and persistent writer who thinks these two skills has moved him farther down the path than his peers. You are just a mile down the road my friend. And while I am in no way on my second lap, I can assure you, you are not packing the correct tools to navigate the journey.

You are young still and will have plenty of time to talk. Right now you should be listening. Remember the story of the student, the Zen master, and the cup of tea? You, Steer, have an exceedingly wet lap.

I warn, because I care. Really.

Good luck.

Brad. Henderson.

 

[Steerpike]

I appreciate how badly you want to be the board's iconoclast, but you are in no position of experience to be able to contradict what 'conventional wisdom' says.

I spent 20 years listening to conventional wisdom. It was only once I started experimenting that I started getting what I wanted. And since this approach to experimentation with counterintuitive thinking is working, give me one good reason why I should stop doing it.

The problems you experienced in your studies is not the fault of the pedagogy, it is the fault of the student.

You're actually going to sit there and tell me that the music teacher who gave me F after F after F for failing to play songs on saxophone properly and then just moved on to another song without actually teaching me how to correct my mistakes wasn't at fault in any way?

That it was my problem when a teacher in 5th grade labeled me stupid and belittled me in front of the whole class when I started asking more and more questions about subjects I didn't understand through the textbook?

Give me a ****ing break.

I accept responsibility for my actions and the consequences thereof, but I am not going to apologize for the failings of others.

You are just a mile down the road my friend. And while I am in no way on my second lap, I can assure you, you are not packing the correct tools to navigate the journey.

I never pretended I wasn't. But I liken what I'm doing to journaling my journey in real-time. Why should I wait until the end of the road to commit my thoughts and experiences to paper? Why not do it during the journey? Andrew Mayne once said that a professor taught him, "It's not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo. You have to be right." Good advice. Which is why I experiment. I don't agree with the things I'm being told, and I have reason to believe that the conventional wisdom is not the only way. So I'm going to try new things. Sometimes experiments don't work. That's why they're called experiments.

I don't doubt that you care. But the more you tell me that I can't do something, that my experiments are without merit, the more determined I become to see them through to the end.

 

[Brad Henderson]

You really mean to say that you've been listening to the conventional wisdom of magic for 20 years? Based on a previous conversation we have had, those numbers simply do not add up, do they?

Here's the problem, steer. You can do whatever the hell you want. And I encourage you to experiment. But you are in no position of experience or authority to suggest to others that your choices have in any way been tested to be effective or beneficial. That's what you are doing and it is irresponsible and wrong.

I respect that you are willing to deal with the results of your choices as they impact your education - but that you advocate your ideas as being a path which will lead to success is evidence of both arrogance and ignorance of the highest order.

You don't know what you are talking about - and you definately don't have the credentials to be considered an authority - in spite of how many words your spit forth saying you do.

I am not worried about the blind man leading the blind, I'm worried about those who follow.

Open your eyes and step out of the way.
Brad

 

[Randy]

You really mean to say that you've been listening to the conventional wisdom of magic for 20 years? Based on a previous conversation we have had, those numbers simply do not add up, do they?

Here's the problem, steer. You can do whatever the hell you want. And I encourage you to experiment. But you are in no position of experience or authority to suggest to others that your choices have in any way been tested to be effective or beneficial. That's what you are doing and it is irresponsible and wrong.

I respect that you are willing to deal with the results of your choices as they impact your education - but that you advocate your ideas as being a path which will lead to success is evidence of both arrogance and ignorance of the highest order.

You don't know what you are talking about - and you definately don't have the credentials to be considered an authority - in spite of how many words your spit forth saying you do.

I am not worried about the blind man leading the blind, I'm worried about those who follow.

Open your eyes and step out of the way.
Brad

I think he meant that he has been listening to conventional wisdom of just about everything for 20 years or so. I know that's he's been doing magic for maybe 2-3 years at the most.

 

[Steerpike]

You really mean to say that you've been listening to the conventional wisdom of magic for 20 years? Based on a previous conversation we have had, those numbers simply do not add up, do they?

I was speaking on general principle. I had hoped that the knowledge that I'm only in my mind-twenties would have made that obvious.

Here's the problem, steer. You can do whatever the hell you want. And I encourage you to experiment. But you are in no position of experience or authority to suggest to others that your choices have in any way been tested to be effective or beneficial. That's what you are doing and it is irresponsible and wrong.

I respect that you are willing to deal with the results of your choices as they impact your education - but that you advocate your ideas as being a path which will lead to success is evidence of both arrogance and ignorance of the highest order.

I tell people what I have seen to work, to be effective. Again, you act as if I'm pulling this all out of my ass. As if every word I have spoken was a conscious stream of thought that I just made up on the spot.

Also I myself find it arrogant to hear it implied that my age invalidates my words.

Maybe I do have a messiah complex. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've been an arrogant mother****er my entire life. But at the same time I refuse to endorse leaders or a system who have failed me.

I think he meant that he has been listening to conventional wisdom of just about everything for 20 years or so. I know that's he's been doing magic for maybe 2-3 years at the most.

About 5 or 6 actually. My college years are kind of a blur.

 

[nexusmagic]

My opinion in the matter is, there are many ways to learn magic, some love to be overwhelmed and others like structure.

 

[ballerO8]

If you were going on a journey and needed to prepare for the trip, who would/should you listen to: the guy who is one mile down the road or the traveler who has been there and returned?

Actually I would listen to neither on the surface. Just because someone has traveled extensively doesn't mean he took the best road. Sometimes...often times...people become jaded, stubborn, and bitter but continue to peddle the same useless (conventional wisdom) advice that have gotten them down the wrong path to begin with.

I'll give you two examples:

1) There are plenty of men who have been married a long time or who are quite a bit older who absolutely understand nothing about how to relate to women. They are just as confused at 45 as they were at 15. Then there are guys in their mid 20s, early 30s who understand women very well and always have beautiful, intelligent women in their life. There are a ton of "conventional wisom" when it comes to women that send men down the wrong path. So the longer they travel they more confused they get.

2) There are plenty of men who have worked in the corporate world their whole careers and have never advanced. They're perpetually stuck in the same state from company to company. Then you have young guys come in and either invent or reivent something...going against convention wisdom...and those guys who are "well traveled" end up working for those young guys.


I'm not knocking all conventional wisdom. I think certain philosophies involving the human condition do not change because our human nature do not change. But other than that I don't think we should dismiss someone's ideas....so long as they can back up it with logic and proof that we can easily verify in our own lives. In other words...if we try it and it brings success....what difference does it make how old he is?

 

[Brad Henderson]

Baller,

You miss the point.

Those people who lives you do not want to emulate can show you how their choices led them there, and you can choose not to take that route.

Someone like Steer has no idea where his techniques will take him, but offers them as if they are the path to success.

I am not advocating a path, I am pointing out that one who is only a mile down the road has NO IDEA what lies ahead and is in no position to give advice as to what to pack. There may be others who took paths you have no interest in following. But they and you can only know that, because they have traveled.

Steer has not left his front yard but speaks as if he has circumnavigated the globe.

Steer, I wish you luck and suggest unless you are totally callous to the well being of others, that you stop placing yourself on the pedestal of authority.

I will be near Philly this summer. Perhaps I will get to see you work.

Brad

 

[nexusmagic]

Brad you need to take this somewhere else, all I have observed from the shadows of this forum is that Steer was just pointing out what he does. I do not know why all of a sudden you decide to talk down to him. As far as I can see you are not showing any "Authoritative" qualities yourself. If there is a beef going down between you and Steer keep it private.

 

[Steerpike]

I will be near Philly this summer. Perhaps I will get to see you work.

...?

I live in Pittsburgh.

 

[Brad Henderson]

I thought you were in Philly.
My bad. I might pass near there on my way to a show in Lake George.

Nexus,

I have seen Steer repeatedly pontificate and when questioned as to the basis of his beliefs, he displays an immense lack of knowledge as to the history of ideas on which his is basing his claims.

While you may be cavalier enough to allow people to spout off unfounded nonsense as a guide for others to follow, I know that many people here take their magic seriously and I would feel awful knowing that someone may make choices which could impact their education in ways detrimental to their growth.

The beauty of the internet is that it is completely democratic - everyone has an equal voice. However, not all voices are informed. And sadly, often the free time to post in quantity is the only criterion for being considered an authority.

I care about the future of magic. And it pains me to see people without any real basis of expertise and experience appointing themselves as guides for others.

If your goal is to splash around in the kiddie pool, then no harm will come of it. If your goal is to be a self proclaimed expert on the internet, then you will find no better role model. But if you want to grow as a magician, I can assure you that there are far better, more experienced, and more informed authorities and guides to listen to than Steerpike.

It's nothing personal.

He just doesn't have the flight time or the benefit of hindsight.

I think my concern is clear. If people want to follow an unproven path, that is their choice. But to not let people know the risk - that would be irresponsible.

I've done what I can.

Brad Henderson

 

[nexusmagic]

The only thing brad is, how do you know this person, is unimformed. I mean who said your god is better then mine? What gives you a right to pass judgement over a person you barely even know.

 

[Steerpike]

I have seen Steer repeatedly pontificate and when questioned as to the basis of his beliefs, he displays an immense lack of knowledge as to the history of ideas on which his is basing his claims.

Like how I explained my reasoning for suggesting Royal Road as a better guide for beginners than Card College. Is there any clearer proof of what a ****ing maniac I am?

I know that many people here take their magic seriously

The implication being that we don't. Classy.

But if you want to grow as a magician, I can assure you that there are far better, more experienced, and more informed authorities and guides to listen to than Steerpike.

Probably why I refer to these people and tell others to email them or read their books.

Yes, I'm acknowledging that I'm not the end-all of human knowledge. I know, I was shocked too.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Nexus,

Steer, before he left for a while, and I had many chats like this. The problem isn't with his opinions - we are all entitled to them. The problem is that he is basing his opinions on a misunderstanding of the history of ideas. And this, my friend, is verifiable. When someone says "magic has always been" or "it used to be" and it wasn't - then that person is WRONG.

I realize that many today believe that we should all hold hands, hug each other, and accept whatever anyone else wants to believe as a viable reality equal to our own. But just because you say something is, doesn't make it so.

You god analogy is a weak and misplaced argument. I am not telling you anything about your god. The equivalent would be you justifying your beliefs by basing them on facts that are known not to be true. I think one would find it challenging to build a sturdy edifice on a weak foundation - or, garbage in = garbage out.

And that is my greatest concern for this site. I have read dozens of posts where people make claims about what things are, or how things have always been - and they are wrong. And this is not about OPINIONS.

And the problem is that people may very well take action based on these conclusions that are built on imaginary foundations.

I know it's fun to believe that the world exists only as you see it, and that the history of magic began with David Blaine - but neither is true.

I have said what needs to be said. Steerpike's advice stems from a position of inexperience and (sometimes) ignorance. When I was in my 20's, I thought I knew everything too. Thankfully, there wasn't a forum where people may have been encouraged to listen to me.

I have pointed out the problems with his position. Those who read this thread can take that counter position into account when evaluating his advice.

That is my full and only intent.

Brad Henderson

 

[Steerpike]

Question: To continue the road analogy, what exactly is this destination that I have yet to reach and what is the qualifier to signify that I have in fact reached it?

If this destination is so important that every single one of us without exception is heading toward it, it seems like the kind of thing I would want to know more about.