I'm not thrilled about "The Trilogy".

Sep 1, 2007
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Not liking the monotonous teaching is quite understandable, and at times I had the same feelings. But while you're never going to be entertained by listening to the explanations, the monotonous thing actually helps me focus on what's going on and makes it easier to understand. Maybe that's just me. I definitely do respect non-monotonous approaches, but monotonousness does have its advantages.

Maybe for some. Personally, how can I put this...

The reason I don't buy D&D stuff besides the fact that I don't care about cards that much is because all the previews seem to communicate to me that their teaching style is influenced by Brian Tudor. And anybody who's ever seen Brian Tudor attempt to teach something on DVD can speculate that he considers teaching to be time not spent drinking, which it seems is his least favorite kind of time.
 
Maybe for some. Personally, how can I put this...

The reason I don't buy D&D stuff besides the fact that I don't care about cards that much is because all the previews seem to communicate to me that their teaching style is influenced by Brian Tudor. And anybody who's ever seen Brian Tudor attempt to teach something on DVD can speculate that he considers teaching to be time not spent drinking, which it seems is his least favorite kind of time.

Come on, that's like comparing various types of bowel movements to a parochial school nun.

It's a flourishers set. It's fast flash that doesn't really require you to speak. It simply depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I liked most of it, but I also respect the fact that it's just not for everyone.
 
Sep 20, 2008
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Israel
I havn't read the whole topic, but allow me to add (unless it's been said already) something I feel about the Trilogy.

Because of the monotonic teaching, performances, and no footage of performing before people. What you get is like a skeleton of the tricks, only the mechanics and moves, with no direction in where to take it (unless you are into that D&D monotonic style), which is exactly what allows and forces you to apply your own style to it, your own patter, etc.

I think that because of how it's presented so 'colourlessly', you might need to be a more advanced magician (beyond pure technnique, but also presentivity and creativity), but it allows you to develop much more than other DVDs that often force one patter or presentation on you.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Come on, that's like comparing various types of bowel movements to a parochial school nun.

If the shoe fits...

It's a flourishers set. It's fast flash that doesn't really require you to speak. It simply depends on what you're looking for.

And I'm looking for teaching that actually, you know... teaches.

De'vo doesn't talk either, yet he has an effective teaching method that covers even the basics in excruciating detail.

And I like how you call a "flourishers set" as if that's an excuse.
 
And I'm looking for teaching that actually, you know... teaches..

Judging by your last post. (I shortened it just a bit.)

The reason I don't buy D&D stuff is because all the previews seem to communicate to me that their teaching style is influenced by Brian Tudor.

You're not saying that you watched any of the actual material being taught, you're just saying that you're judging the teaching from previews, which I don't think is entirely fair.

De'vo doesn't talk either, yet he has an effective teaching method that covers even the basics in excruciating detail..

That's because that's what it's billed as. De'vo counts on the individuals buying his material to be beginners who need to learn the basics. D&D don't. However, not everything on the set is horrifyingly difficult either. Card To Mouth, Subway, Card Across. On "The Tricks" disc, they teach you what they have permission to, and reference you to where you can learn what they can't. Everything is taught once with voice instruction, and a second time without voice instruction and them just sitting at a table. On "The Flourishes" DVD, they run over the flourish at speed a few times, then slow it down and go over it with slight pauses followed by written instructions on the screen. "The Everythingelse" disc, is pretty much like "The AndThenSome" disc. It's just a bunch of random stuff thrown together.

The teaching isn't hard to learn from. However, if there is something that one can't seem to learn, i'd suggest picking up a book, or atleast looking for other sources. I even do that with moves that I do understand. The thing is, they're not teaching charlier cuts and thumb rolls. You should be some what seasoned in sleight of hand before you pick up something like this.

And I like how you call a "flourishers set" as if that's an excuse.

It's an exuse for why the material being taught isn't for everyone. Most of their stuff requires you to have fast hands, it's show off style material at it's core. I wouldn't expect this stuff to be used by stage performer types, or someone like you who want's his magic to have a good script, simply because it's show off material. And when you want someone to think what you're doing is magical, the less movement the better. It takes away suspicion. If you flourish, people expect you to know how to handle a deck of cards and to have fast hands. So, much else isn't going to matter in the mind of a spectator except that you have fast hands, so to them any magic you do after that can simply be explained on that basis. That's why I called it a "Flourishers Set". That's why if someone where to ask "Hey, can you show me something with those?" or something of the like, i'd pull out something from The Trilogy. I'm not billing it as magic, it's just something I can do with a deck of cards. That's why it's not for everyone.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
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You're not saying that you watched any of the actual material being taught, you're just saying that you're judging the teaching from previews, which I don't think is entirely fair.

Perhaps not, but if the preview isn't selling me on the whole thing, can you really blame me?

You should be some what seasoned in sleight of hand before you pick up something like this.

Yeah, I get that argument. But I don't like the, "Screw it," approach to teaching the fundamentals regardless of how advanced I supposedly am when I purchase something. It's a matter of principle for me.

I wouldn't expect this stuff to be used by stage performer types, or someone like you who want's his magic to have a good script, simply because it's show off material.

And I do admit to having a Pavlovian reaction of intense stomach cramps to that sort of thing.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
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Back in Time
I wouldn't expect this stuff to be used by stage performer types, or someone like you who want's his magic to have a good script, simply because it's show off material.

Devo would like a word with you.

He pretty much used to do this professionally and for big night clubs and huge events. I think D&D might have also gotten hired for some high up gigs as well.

Not for the magic, mind you. But the flourishes.
 
Perhaps not, but if the preview isn't selling me on the whole thing, can you really blame me?

The preview's not supposed to sell you on the teaching, it's supposed to sell you on the material.

Yeah, I get that argument. But I don't like the, "Screw it," approach to teaching the fundamentals regardless of how advanced I supposedly am when I purchase something. It's a matter of principle for me.

There are numerous DVDs and Books that completely neglect the basics of how to execute a proper Double Lift or Double Undercut (etc.) because they are things that you, should not only know at that point, but can also find numerous other sources on. I've yet to hear anyone complain that The Art Of Astonishment books completely neglect the fundamentals. I don't see this any different. When you want fundamentals, you don't go to The Trilogy because they don't bill it as a DVD set to learn the fundamentals, you go to Card College.

And I do admit to having a Pavlovian reaction of intense stomach cramps to that sort of thing.

Then i'd avoid further viewings of the previews and get some Zantac.
 
Dec 10, 2007
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it's show off style material at it's core. I wouldn't expect this stuff to be used by stage performer types, or someone like you who want's his magic to have a good script, simply because it's show off material. And when you want someone to think what you're doing is magical, the less movement the better. It takes away suspicion. If you flourish, people expect you to know how to handle a deck of cards and to have fast hands. So, much else isn't going to matter in the mind of a spectator except that you have fast hands, so to them any magic you do after that can simply be explained on that basis.

blackandwhiteillusionist,

you bring up a good point here. I agree with you 100%. If your audience sees you do these flourishes, and you then go into an ACR....then it's just crap b/c the audience just says.....well, he/she's just got fast hands and while having fast hands and being able to flourish well, it might impress people that know a little about cards but lay people will just think that he/she the card conjurer has too much free time on their hands. However, if you can hit em hard with a deck of cards and make it look like you haven't done anything with it but merely put their card in the middle.....or what have you.....then that will have a much better lasting impression. And really, isn't that the major reason to perform?

There are numerous DVDs and Books that completely neglect the basics of how to execute a proper Double Lift or Double Undercut (etc.) because they are things that you, should not only know at that point, but can also find numerous other sources on.
I'm not asking them to go over basic sleights.....my original post made this clear.....in fact....my complaint is that they actually do go over some basic sleights (and in great detail) and only brush over the more difficult sleights.
On "The Tricks" disc, they teach you what they have permission to, and reference you to where you can learn what they can't.
To me, this is not ok......if i made an instructional DVD....I don't think I would be able to not teach what i've performed on the DVD and then say but you gotta buy this other product to learn this move here and that's that. This almost seems Un-American to me or am I just taking crazy pills here? Perhaps they should have taught the performances that they could teach 100%.

Steerpike,

And I'm looking for teaching that actually, you know... teaches.
You hit the nail on the head here as far as I'm concerned. While others may disagree, no matter how you look at it, it's supposed to be an instructional DVD and that would imply that they teach what is being performed.
 
Dec 10, 2007
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Just a side note

Also, and this is BIG!! Go to the preview and look at around 1:24.....it says "Over 13 effects and nearly 60 sleights taught in FULL DETAIL." Hmmmmm......
 
Sep 2, 2007
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Las Vegas, NV
I've gone over the whole tricks DVD twice more and I'm still a bit perplexed...

What sleights did you feel weren't explained very well? What are your rules? or what should have been taught on the disc to have satisfied you? Just wondering because no one's brought up any specifics yet, but the obvious implication of the clipshift.

Are you against actual teaching content or style by which it was taught? Or is the DVD sitting on the shelf because the effects are a little too advanced and it's something you'll come back to later? That's legit and fine, I've done that with other purchases I've made. Or is it that you honestly, don't have the time to invest in the set /sleights/tricks to get them perfect right now?

I had zero problems with their teaching. To me the mechanics taught was enough to get me started on the sleight. Then it all came down to practice, even with the knacky stuff.

If you're having problems with the duck change, you don't put your forefinger right in the center of the edge of the card, it must be placed 5 and 7/10ths of a nanometer under the midline of your card toward the thumb. if the card's midline's like the equator, your landmark is like halfway between that and the Tropic of Capricorn. Is that the kind of detail and finesse you're looking for?

The Bucks didn't teach the Clipshift because they were producing Surfaced for Chad Nelson... Why buy a DVD based on this awesome sleight, if DnD's Tricks already let the cat out of the bag? Yeah it was a dissapointment, but I still feel like I got my $30 worth, especially compared to a lot of $30-crap out there.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I'm assuming you didn't catch the part where I said I don't actually own it. The reviews and previews combined with the fact that I don't really give that much of a **** about cards resulted in my shrugging my shoulders and passing it up for something I'd actually use.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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Las Vegas, NV
No, Steerpike, not you. You're outside of the target market this was made for... It was a question for the origional poster... I'm trying to help someone here...
 
Dec 10, 2007
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Seventeen,

To answer your questions as best as i can....pretty much it was the content and style. While yes, they do teach most of the sleights, the ones they didn't really stick out like a sore thumb and are the ones that you remember most right? Such as life.....like the magician who performs 100 tricks to the "T" but messes up once and that's all his audience remembers for the rest of their day. It's a little unfair. However, as i mentioned before I feel the style as well was a little dissappointing, while the dvd is targeted toward an educated audience, the monotonousness (is that even a word?) made it hard to watch. Now I know, it's my own opinion and i know that others will agree and disagree.

Please read my post on page 3...it's the one at the bottom. These points I just wanted to bring up. While the instructions would be nice if they were more detailed your example would be a bit much indeed....and I feel that some very basic sleights and productions were taught in that sort of overly done detail as well, which puzzles me.

I also would've liked to see some street performances as well, as they are fun to watch too. Or maybe a set with them, as if you did all the tricks on the DVD you'd be done in 5 mins. But it's ok, it's not necessary for the learning aspect but something that would've been entertaining.

To finish, I guess my style is the more simple the trick the better.....it just seems like it's way too much trouble to perform 3 sleights in a row to accomplish one effect. Too much flash. Yeah, i should've known this though before I bought the set. So I'm only blaming myself there. But my other points i still stand on.

Let me remind everyone that i feel D&D are amongst the best cardicians out there and I don't question their talent the slightest bit.....i was just a bit dissappointed in the set is all. Thank you.
 
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Jan 28, 2009
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Advanced or not, or aimed at an advanced market, the teaching is poor to non-existant. They just tell you what they're doing whilst you watch. It's tedious to watch and not well taught. Don't get me wrong, I perform in dark loud places, or events where a quick trick is often all you have time for for each party there, so I use a lot of the material. I have no issue with the material or the tricks as that's a seperate discussion to my mind. I also don't mind them not teaching the clip shift, I mean come on, lol, if you want to learn it pay the guy that created the sleight, but their teaching style is just bleagh.

Worse than that, a bunch of kids have bought it and thought that their teaching style is how you should perform. "Here's something with the top card.......and now look....it does this.......and it changes." That's my issue with it. There are -zero- performance tips on the disk. Zero audience management tips etc. Now fair enough, if you're experienced you have your own style and don't need that stuff, but frankly, judging by what I see out of a lot of young magicians, they think its enough to just replicate that and call it a performance. No matter who the Trilogy is aimed at its marketed as being of use to 'The beginner to the professional.' Without question it is useful to that market, HOWEVER, if beginners are going to be watching it, I feel that performance tips are extremely useful, and its a huge gap in the Trilogy.

I still think it rocks though, lol, but compare it to something by Aaron Fisher, or WH, or DG. Those guys talk to you about patter, technique etc. Little things that the creator of an effect picks up over the years of performing it. I mean look at Witness by Lee Asher. One of the simplist methods I've ever seen, which if taught the way Dan and Dave teach would be a joke of an effect, lol. With Lee's advice throughout the disk its a miracle. Its those little touches that for me create the value of a disk.

Those are absolutely absent from the Trilogy.

I forgive D&D though because its fun to practice and hysterical to perform throughout.
 
I'm probably the only one on here who wasn't impressed with Dan and Dave...

No you're not. You're just more vocal about it than others.

I personally find a lot of their work absolutely amazing (from a magicians view point) but that's because I can respect the work and effort that goes into performing the slights they do. I also am of the mindset to believe that 90% of their knuckle busting moves are wasted on a common mark because simply put, they don't know any better. Therefor I also believe that for the most part, their material is produced for magician consumption (which is perfectly fine) but not really practical for your average everyday card worker. NOTE: I am not discrediting the skills or talents of the Buck twins. They are amazingly good.

Seeing as they are a T11 artist, and this forum is stocked to the brim full of seething fanboys, I'm sure I'll probably get some negative feedback on my comments, but that is to be expected.
 
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Jul 16, 2008
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just a though but isnt this there take on classic effect like twin split remix and swiss made therefore you should already know some pattering for these effects, just a though
 
Dec 10, 2007
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52card pickup,

My "though" on this is that, whoever said we were supposed to know the classic effect of twin split or swiss made or the patter to go with it. It's on their DVD so they should teach all aspects of the trick. Just a "though"
 
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