Is Cardistry just "Showing Off"?

Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by ZachMueller, Sep 8, 2009.

  1. Hi guys,

    I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine today. I would appreciate if you read it:


    what are you filming?

    Zach: a flourishing video


    Zach: someone doesn't appreciate time and effort

    Jeff: no i just dont like juggling

    Zach: why dont you like juggling

    Jeff: i find it, ESPECIALLY WITH CARDS, showing off, not impressive, and dumb
    just my opinion

    Zach:isnt perfecting and uploading video of a sleight showing off
    or a routine that you have worked hard on and uploading to youtube
    isnt that showing off the routine

    Jeff: i dont make videos of sleight of hand... but we're talking about magicians now, i was talking about flourishing to layman before

    Zach: hahah no one flourishes to laymen
    people flourish to show other flourishers

    Jeff: that makes like no sense

    Zach: yeah it does
    people who stamp collect, do they show people their collections? No. Will laymen appreciate all the stamps? Probably not.

    Jeff: stamp collecting is not a performance art

    Zach: true, but my point is: the people who appreciate all the stamps youve collected are stamp collectors, because they know how rare or hard to find the stamps are. With flourishing, flourishers appreciate it because they know how hard it is, and what amount of work it takes

    Jeff: thats like saying i should only perform my magic to magicians and not laymen.. because laymen dont understand all the practice it takes

    Zach: no magic is different

    Jeff: ?

    Zach: I think magic goes both ways, it is used as entertainment for laymen and it can be used to show to magicians. You aren't going to show just a perfect classic pass to a layman, you show magicians. Does that make any sense?

    Jeff: kinda i guess, but i still think its dumb

    Zach: Well i think it's an interesting subject. Do you mind if I post this on the theory11 forums. I want to hear what people think about it

    Jeff: sure

    So what do you guys think about this subject? Do you feel flourishing is just showing off? Do you feel it is just an art for flourishers, or do you think it should be performed for laymen?

    I look forward to what people think of this.

  2. #2 Michael Stern, Sep 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2009
    i feel like i am hurt when i go onto my computer and see this hatred to what can a beautiful thing like giving birth to a child, (its an art form) not necessarily the birth thing. This makes me feel bad. There you go JB.
  3. Honestly, it's a way to improve your card handling, that's all.
  4. Showing off is all it seems to be for the major part of it.
    Youtube videos for other people to see and to fill with comments of "thats awesomez" by other flourishers.
    Even if it was a done for spectators,it is still a display of skill.
    I have yet to see anyone make it truly entertaining.
    Ive only heard of it once that it goes well in a nightclub bar scene in Germany(?) for a few flourishers. But thats like a drop of water in an ocean compared to how many flourishers dont even do that.
  5. its showing off theres really no point to it like i do do flourishes but only when im bored or to show off for laymen its like magicains can get a job going magic you cant get a job just doing flourishes it gets really boring after a while...jmo
  6. I just do them because it looks cool.
  7. #7 MagicLemonBird, Sep 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2010
    Wow...some of you guys should learn what XCM, Cardistry, and Flourishing is about (no they are not all the same)

    Its not "showing off" with cards. If you do that I suggest that you are a magician who does cardistry very seldom with no time and effort.

    Being a card artists means you have the ability to manipulate the 52 card deck. Whether it is doing armspreads, two handed cuts, fans, etc. IT'S AN ART GUYS...not just "SHOWING OFF". Get your facts learned before you post. That's why I left theory11....go to U.C or Handlordz and learn some stuff...T11 isn't a manipulation center. This isn't the place to get started in cardistry and advance in cardistry. In fact forums as a whole aren't a whole good place to go on. They make you talk about magic/cardistry without you actually doing the art...TRUST ME if any of you guys remember...I was addicted to Theory11 and it's "awesomeness" but not anymore I've learned better, so I stay off these forums as much as possible because hey... the (cardists) people here giving criticism 'ought not to be giving. Just go to U.C if you want to get better...but don't stay there too long.


    EDIT: Wow sorry guys, I was in a :confused: tween-teen crisis? ???!?!? Anyway it seems as though I was harsh, but 8 months later (6/15/10) I still regard cardistry as an art. Here is the what art is "the expression of an appealing and beautiful craft". Well within the perimeters of what you see flourishers do.
  8. Wow now I really want to learn cardistry, good show lemonbird. But seriously relax bud, xcm, flourishing whatever is an art just like anything else that requires some sort of skill. But I guess I am just stating this opinion since you are never coming back, which this wolf is a little skeptical on that notion.

    But anyway having a rant doesn't help the argument Mr. Bird. I wish you the best of luck and may you excel at your "art."
  9. mistakes youre making.

    a.) "its not "showing off" with cards." then "Being a card artists means you have the ability to manipulate the 52 card deck. "

    thats just a fancy way of saying "showing off". Really, i love flourishing. everyone knows that. But i'll admit that its less of an art form and more of "hey guys look what i can do!"

    b.) "IT'S AN ART GUYS...not just "SHOWING OFF". Get your facts learned before you post."

    hmm, probably not the best thing to say when you havent been flourishing for a long time.

    c.)"In fact forums as a whole aren't a whole good place to go on. They make you talk about magic/cardistry without you actually doing the art"

    yeah... the spirit of cardistry is pretty much online in forums. so youre kinda like a hermit to us now. and not one of those wise sages. youre like, idiot in the wild.

    d.) "stay off these forums as much as possible because hey... the (cardists) people here giving criticism 'ought not to be giving. "

    says the newbie cardist critisizing everyone else.

    e.)"Just go to U.C if you want to get better...but don't stay there too long. "
    UC is dead, as is any community you noobs touch.

    call for attention? i think the mods here are ironicly the least tool-like here.

    g.) " Leon, and a few others before me...I'm gone for good"
    yeh... except with Leon, his contributions will be missed.

    You're naive MLB.
  10. you just got pwned!
  11. #11 praetoritevong, Sep 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2009
    MLB.Augustus' post confirms a few things I hate regarding a large number of the cardistry community.

    Immaturity, for one.

    And what's this about "Forums are bad, therefore go to U.C."? Surely that's a little ironic.

    And how about the name "United" cardists? Third thread from the top in the general talk forum is one guy complaining, and the next guy calling him a "dumb mutherfuucker" [sic]. That's also quite ironic.

    Now, don't get me wrong - I don't mean to simply bag out UC here, I'm sure that there are plenty of very skilled and knowledgeable people; I acknowledge here that I am in fact generalising; this is only out of what I see as problems in a great number of people in the community.

    And finally, can I just say, I would put Cardistry half way and say that Cardistry CAN be an Art - a performance art, no less - but ONLY if people go out there and perform! I know, in my area, about thirty odd cardists. Only one goes out there and performs.

    Cardistry is a performance art if you actually go out there performing for laymen. Otherwise, it's just a fun little thing you do with your friends - that is NOT an art. No other supposed performance art only performs for the fraternity, so to speak.

    So if you really think it's an art, and I wouldn't disagree with you, but then go out there and actually perform. Cause a heck of a lot more people need to. And it's a reality that, unfortunately, too much of the mainstream Cardistry community ignores - it's too easy to sit in front of a webcam or perform for a camera in an abandoned warehouse. Don't get me wrong, some of those videos are amazing and very awesome. But that's not performance art.
  12. Define ART.

    Nuff ' said.
  13. #13 TheatreHead, Sep 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2009
    lol, MLB, fail.

    I think that cardistry/flourishing/XCM, is pure aesthetics, pure showing off.

    My definition of art is "a form of self expression."

    i think that to a degree, all forms of performing art can really only be appreciated by artists. for example: Music, dance and drama. but only to a degree.
    most laymen can appreciate a standard, shallow, basic pop song, but it takes years of learning even just to understand the devices used in a Beethoven symphony for example.
    Or with dancing. Most lay people can appreciate a cool move, but appreciating the balance, flexibility and coordination it takes? you never really understand unless you've tried it yourself.
    same with what it takes to characterize properly while acting, to unbecome yourself and to become your character, the training and the practice required is unbelievable.
    I think that Cardistry/XCM/flourishing is just aesthetics. I don't view it as an art. I define art as "a form of self expression", something that is evident in music, drama, dance, film making, visual arts, etc. You can see that the composer has put a bit of himself into the piece. You can pick up on the emotions, and maybe there's a message in the piece.
    Cardistry/XCM/flourishing, maybe it's just me, but it looks like it was designed just to look pretty. I don't see different emotions that the composer has put into it. I don't get the feeling that they are expressing something, a message an emotion, whatever.
    My one possible exception to the definition of art is "martial arts". I see the katas/forms as art, but some people disagree with me.
    I do however, consider magic performance as an art. Not tricks. If you do a trick without performing, without patter, it's not art, it's just a trick.

    Note that everything here is just my opinion, and if you want to disagree with me, I won't take offence. In fact, I'd like someone to disagree with me, I want to know what other people define art as.
  14. I hold flourishing in the same regard that I hold painting, digital art, playing a musical instrument... etc

    I consider those things an artform and therefore appreciate them for what they are as well as all the hard work that goes into making them as wonderful as they can be. Do I enjoy everything I see within the artforms? Of course not, there are paintings which I simply don't understand and musical instruments that I'd rather not listen to but that doesn't make my appreciation of them any less.

    I view flourishing in this aspect - one of the real differences to me is that it seems more challenging to make a living from flourishing then many other things you could do which are still considered "artforms".

    I consider it an artform because it's an expression of yourself through a unique style and on a canvas with nearly endless possibilities. Though every laymen may not find it as appealing as you do, there are laymen that will stop in an awe struck moment to see what you have to offer - I feel this is similiar with all artforms.

    Is it showing off? I think it most certainly could be taken in that light, I feel it depends on the situation it's presented in though. Even so, you may see it as showing off but I honestly feel like the majority of people that see me flourishing aren't thinking that I'm showing off.
  15. it's extremely hard to express yourself through the movement of cards. but if someone does, then i'll consider it an art form.
  16. I can see your point on this however, I feel that it's already been achieved.
  17. it may have for you, but for me, i can't see it. i hope to get a revelation about it sometime.
  18. I can appreciate that, as I said - not everyone is going to get the same thing out of it, there is no telling if at some point you will see it as an artform or if you'll simply view it as showing off with a deck of cards. To each his own. :)
  19. Good answers so far :), besides shutting down MLB , I have been wanting to throw this question for some time.

    By the way, this post is directed to Faded temp, Theatre head pretty much has the right idea.

    The word art has been throwed down a lot of times around here: "the art of magic" " My art with cards" etc.

    I have another question, some of you guys said that it was a "form of expression" my question is:

    Expressing what?

    Art means that you are expressing your feelings, a thought an idea using "something" (its a very poor definitition I may expand that later)

    You can do that with Music, Poetry,Plastic arts, Dancing, Cinematography, Theather etc.

    Can you express feelings with flourishing? I dont think so.

    Can you make a flourish look sad? can you express love to someone by doing a anaconda?

    Considering "Flourishes" art it's like considering Skateboarding, or doing tricks with a YO-YO. Art.

    IF you disagree I would love to hear your thoughts.
  20. I believe so. For example: students at Jacques Lecoq's acting school learn to express themselves through their body actions. Flourishing at its best is manipulation of a tool which is an extension of the body. None of that, stand in front of the camera 871246 packets moving stuff, mind you. But especially, for example, choreographed with music for example, flourishing yes, can express something like sadness. It can tell a story. A friend of mine performed at a bar a few weeks ago a routine choreographed to music - five stages, five decks, five different moods/styles of music/choreography styles, and conveyed a story quite well.

    It's very difficult to do, of course. But I think it's possible. Just don't forget that contrary to 99% of the community, flourishing can be something more than standing in front of a camera moving just your hands (with the camera at a close up).

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