Mental Card force required

[siekomagic]

Hi All

I am looking for some assistance here. I am looking for a mental card force where a spectator can mentally "select" any of the 52 cards. Obviously I am looking to force a card. I want it to look as clean as possible I have quite a bit of patter in which I could incorporate some suggestions.

Your help would be appreciated. Also please feel free to PM me

 

[Craig Browning]

Ok. . . you've made 3 total posts and your asking for a method. . . this makes old guys like me raise an eyebrow.

Firstly, I have two questions for you, a.) Have you studied the foundation texts on Mentalism like Corinda, Annemann, etc.? b.) Have you looked through the Annemann 202 Forcing Methods booklet?

Yes, I have a method and it's one that's been around for a very long time though I've given it a few twists of my own. I've use it in Radio interviews and caused everyone listening to end up on the same "freely" chosen card . . . the rudiments of this force can be found in the Annemann book mentioned above and in Maven's GREY ELEPHANT IN DENMARK routine. I emphasize, you will find the essence behind the technique that's used for doing what we're talking about here.

Another source is psychological in nature and not as certain as the above, it is based on the classic Magician's Force but is far cleaner and more deceptive. . . it is of course, a bit of "advanced" mentalism when it comes to the how it works side of things but it is easy enough to figure out if you're familiar with this classic handling and certain bits of business Banachek has been writing about over the past decade. . . I'll not take things further in that I believe in encouraging people to do some research on their own vs. handing them all they need on a silver platter; seems that when they have to dig around and earn the information, they respect it a lot more.

I have no doubt that someone will either post of pm you with a solution, magic forums are notorious for such things. But I promise you, the greater advantage for you is to not just setting on instant gratification - learn your craft.

 

[Josh Burch]

Expert Card Technique has a whole chapter on mental miracles with cards. You'll find everything you need there.

 

[Nicholas17]

Expert at the Card Table has a mental card control where you move cards from one hand to another and have a spectator merely think of one. The method allows you to control the card they have thought of. It's not a force, but it's a very powerful way to decipher a thought of card. The problem is it's very difficult to get to a point where you can pull it off with accuracy. The result is one of the greatest ways to control a card I can even imagine. I forget the name, but I believe it's something along the lines of, "method to control a card, D."

Derren Brown also has some strong card forces in The Devil's Picturebook as well as some of his books. My favorite of his takes a long time to perform, but it packs a punch.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Daniel Madison also has some mental card forces. Look through his material.

One thing, though, mental forces are not 100%. There will also be a failure rate of some degree.

 

[jbroski]

Although I don't have Devil's Picturebook, I'm pretty sure you'll like the stuff Derren has to off. Docc Hilford also has another really nice psychological card force. Also I would looking into some work on progressive/branching anagrams, you don't force a card but you can tell them one they are thinking off from a select few.

 

[junkbox]

Ok. . . you've made 3 total posts and your asking for a method. . . this makes old guys like me raise an eyebrow.

You are misunderstanding what people are looking for. I don't know what he was really looking for, but I think this applies to many posts. Not everyone states that they are looking for a source to learn a sleight or whatever it is. I think it is implied. We all know that you do not reveal methods. I am pretty sure people are looking for a source, or at least the name of a sleight so that they can find the source. It might not have been stated, but it is implied. He does not mean for you to explain him the method.

 

[TylerRouss]

Dani Da'Ortiz's imaginary deck. It is on his Utopia dvd's, under the psychological section, and is absolutely wonderful. It is a deck-less, 9/10 hit, force. Wonderful.

 

[William Draven]

Just use an index.

 

[Craig Browning]

You are misunderstanding what people are looking for. I don't know what he was really looking for, but I think this applies to many posts. Not everyone states that they are looking for a source to learn a sleight or whatever it is. I think it is implied. We all know that you do not reveal methods. I am pretty sure people are looking for a source, or at least the name of a sleight so that they can find the source. It might not have been stated, but it is implied. He does not mean for you to explain him the method.

Great theory Junk Box, but when you've been around as many forums and for long as I have, you tend to notice certain patterns that are common to the newbie, which is why I said what I said vs. giving the guy specific information. Truthfully, what he's asking for is incredibly simple to pull off IF one's has studied the basics.

 

[RealityOne]

Just use an index.

"But that's not mentalism (said the newbie)."

P.S. #1 - the correct term is a Psychological Force not a Mental Force

P.S. #2 - Cards and mentalism?

P.S. #3 - Will the spectator 's memory of the effect be different if you just forced a card from a deck?

 

[junkbox]

P.S. #3 - Will the spectator 's memory of the effect be different if you just forced a card from a deck?

I can think of many reasons as to why a freely named card is better than one picked out of the deck. Would the invisible deck be as good if you took out a second deck to get them to pick their card? You may think so, but I certainly do not.

 

[Colin]

Would the invisible deck be as good if you took out a second deck to get them to pick their card? You may think so, but I certainly do not.

You don't force a card when doing the invisible deck, the whole point of that is the card is freely chosen.

 

[junkbox]

It wasn't meant to focus on a force, I was focusing on theory of whether the trick is stronger if a card is freely named or picked out of a deck.

 

[Colin]

But the original posted stated that they were looking to force a card so in this case a freely named card is not an option.

 

[junkbox]

If you noticed, I was referring to RealityOne. I wasn't talking about a force. I know he is not looking for a free choice, but rather a force. Reality asked if it would make the effect stronger with named card that was psychologically forced, rather than a normal card force. That is what I was referring to. A freely named card or seemingly freely named card would make many effects stronger, depending on the effect.

 

[RealityOne]

A freely named card or seemingly freely named card would make many effects stronger, depending on the effect.

Why? What is the difference between a freely named card or a freely selected card in the spectator's mind? Both are a random choice. Using cards eliminates the possibility of a stooge.

I've seen people try mental forces using equvoque and get the right card and fail. Magician: "So the card you thought of was the 10 of diamonds." Spectator: "Well, I didn't really think of that card."

Just because something is more difficult, doesn't mean it is better. Ask any professional - they will chose simple and foolproof any day. I can do a classic force with 99% accuracy, but I'll still use a force deck when it matters in a show.

As for your question about an invisible deck, I would say that a "Do as I Do" effect could be as strong.

 

[junkbox]

That part abut difficulty is a lesson I learned while tring to get the hang of the invisible pass. I thought it was the best way and it was super hard. I thought that the good sleights had to be hard to get the hang of, but then I realized that there are many easier card controls that I now use over that pass all the time.

I understand that many effects it would not make a difference in a spectators mind. Magicians know about card forcing but spectators would not, so it looks like a free choice to them. It would however make a difference if it was in certain effects or performances, like the way most people perform the invisible deck. Taking out a separate deck takes away from the creative imagination aspect of there being an invisible deck. Also, it seems all the more impossible that that card is in the deck. I don't know about other people's reactions, but when I do that effect people always make a comment and emphasize that it was a randomly thought of card. It seems to make it stronger.
In Psycho by Spidey, the freely thought of card can make it stronger, however I have fit in a perfect reason for picking a card out physically and incorporated it in to my patter so it works. This patter that I use wouldnt work very well for any other effects that I perform, so in a special case, or if I did not think of that patter, a psychological force can be much better (this is in my opinion based on the reactions I have gotten. You may have different experiences.)

(This might be confusing and hard to follow., I am tired and in bed so sorry if it is. I was kind of just jumbling my thought down. I understand completely with what you are saying and agree partially, just I do believe there are times where it would make a difference depending on the situation at hand and the nature of the effect being performed.)

 

[RealityOne]

The key is what the spectator experiences. There is a difference between asking a spectator to think of any card, or using a psychological force. It is a question of the degree of perceived freedom and therefore fairness. There is a similar issue with regular forces (see Roberto Giobbi's's Confidences for a great exploration of this idea). Compare a riffle force, to a classic force to a tabled ribbon spread using a force deck - from the spectator's perspective. The degree of freedom differs in each.

You also hit on the other important point - justification. How you do a force, be it with cards or psychological, needs to be justified. Search for a performance of Wayne Dobson's invisible deck routine on YouTube (the effect is on Wayne's book WD40 which has a bunch of great stand up card effects). If you are just using the method, especially in a psychological force, it will be apparent.

 

[Steerpike]

Asking a spectator to freely name a thing instead of using a force really doesn't make that much practical difference to the end result. Why do psychological forces usually work? Because when given a bunch of options, people tend to pick the easiest ones because those stand out amidst the sea of possibilities. They go by defaults when the options are so many because it expends less energy to think of them. So really when using a psychological force, the choices aren't as wide open as magicians might think they are.

I do a book test where I actually show them a pocket dictionary, flip to a random page, and let them pick from the words there. The fact that there's actually a page to choose words from rather than just randomly going, "Let's say the 27th word on page... I don't know, 162?" never seems to make any difference to them. For all practical purposes, they picked a random word out of a dictionary, and I read their minds and got that word.