Showcase your style

[Chris W]

I think another aspect is that coing magic isn't "cool". By that I mean it isn't as in style as card magic. I guess this does relate to posts saying that if Chris Angel perfromed some nice coin work, it would be all over the internet. I would agree with that.

I am torn a bit between whether I want to keep it somewhat underground. I guess its a feeling I've had when an underground band becomes mainstream and then next thing you know, you have 12 year old girls singing their songs from the radio.

Anyways, I guess there won't be as much coin magic out there unless you get a big name guy like David Blaine performing it more.

 

[Randomwrath]

I am almost solely a card guy; I think a coin vanish is about it for this genre as far as I'm concerned. I think what attracts me to cards is the variety of plots. I have no idea how many coin plots there are, seeing as I know about as much about coins as a youtube magician knows about social interaction, but I struggle to imagine an entertaining show, featuring variety, that consists mainly of coin tricks. It has clearly been done, as mentioned previously in this thread, but I can't see it working in my mind.

Also, I feel that, due to the fact that every card in a deck is different, even simple tricks have an air of impossibility about them.
"Maybe he did that by having a duplicate card. But hold on, how did he know what card to have a duplicate of? He couldn't have had a whole deck hidden in his pocket and he just pulled out the matching one..." I find (and this is just my thoughts and opinion on why I'm attracted to cards over coins - I am not trying to speak for everyone here) that this just adds a greater level of impossibility to every trick.

I'm sure what I've said here is complete crap and can easily be countered by an example of coin magic, but I haven't been introduced to said tricks yet. Probably due to the general lack of interest in coin magic. It's a vicious circle.

 

[Orb]

Hey Randomwrath, thanks alot for sharing your thoughts! it gives alot of aspects on the matter and don't worry, there's no right or wrong opinions here. I will however try to open your mind a bit with coin magic. Just like with card magic (where my knowledge is very limited for the record) there are loads effects to achieve.
It goes beyond just vanishing, there's also:
Productions
Penetrations
Teleportions
Fusions
Fissions
Spellbounds (in your language, colorchanges)
And you can add props to add to your own routines and stories to give them a more "fantasy" effect. David Roth is the master of that. Feel free to add on to my list as I probably have missed plenty. There might still be much more card magic material but the opportunitys on boths sides are endless. Just wanted to share since before I started magic, my only interest at first lied in coin magic, and it's still my very main, and I was scared there would be no material. But man was I surprised after some times research heh.

 

[Andy.Boss.Glass]

Our best (and rare) case scenario is having laymen being introduced to both coin and card magic at the same time, whereas from there they can decide.

i dont think thats the case as much as seeing DECENT card and coin magic.

 

[Randomwrath]

Productions
Penetrations
Teleportions
Fusions
Fissions
Spellbounds (in your language, colorchanges)

Hmm, fair enough. So what classes as a 'fission'? I can probably work out what all the others are

 

[Andy.Boss.Glass]

Hmm, fair enough. So what classes as a 'fission'? I can probably work out what all the others are

spliting say a silver dollar into two halves. Just like in card magic where you split a two into aces.

 

[Randomwrath]

spliting say a silver dollar into two halves. Just like in card magic where you split a two into aces.

Ah right, I'm with you.

 

[Orb]

i dont think thats the case as much as seeing DECENT card and coin magic.

Yes good point mate, but we need to take a step further and wonder why isn't there as much decent coin magic as decent card magic? Is it just a vicious circle where when decent card magic is shown, it just keeps recruiting while coin magic continiously gets neglected due to not enough people performing it effectively enough? That's for sure one theory, and it's a pretty good one.

But can there be more to it? I think another thing is that, it takes more time to practice a coin magic trick before having it performed, than a card magic trick. Every single movement you do matters, usually the angles are sensitive and there's alot of concealing and subtleties involved. Not to undermine card magic, but you will get superb effects with an ACR routine, and it doesn't take too much work (compared).
This is a very rough question, so give it a rough estimation, about how much time does it take for you to practice a new card magic routine(seeing as you appear to be a mainly card magician but have some coin magic knowledge in you) before you feel confident of performing it magicfreak? Can you give it some sort of comparing?

 

[Andy.Boss.Glass]

Well, when I first learned coin magic, i started in an old Henry Hay book entitled The Amueter (sp?) magician's handbook, and one of the first statements it said about coin magic was that it was the hardest to do and the least gratifying.

But I think another big reason is that most of the "famous" magicians we see today such as Daniel Madison, Dan and Dave, Lee Asher, Aaron fisher, all specialize in cards! You really don't see that many coin magicians. I think a big reason coin magic is not performed is that you actually have to look for good coin magic material, and even then, you have to practice twice as much as you would for most card sleights.

And the reason coin magic is harder, is well, because you only have those few coins, no other misdirection. But with cards, you've got 52!!!, not three or four, but 52 objects in your hand to misdirect from their chosen card or the aces, or what have ya.

 

[Magu Manu]

Well, when I first learned coin magic, i started in an old Henry Hay book entitled The Amueter (sp?) magician's handbook, and one of the first statements it said about coin magic was that it was the hardest to do and the least gratifying.

But I think another big reason is that most of the "famous" magicians we see today such as Daniel Madison, Dan and Dave, Lee Asher, Aaron fisher, all specialize in cards! You really don't see that many coin magicians. I think a big reason coin magic is not performed is that you actually have to look for good coin magic material, and even then, you have to practice twice as much as you would for most card sleights.

And the reason coin magic is harder, is well, because you only have those few coins, no other misdirection. But with cards, you've got 52!!!, not three or four, but 52 objects in your hand to misdirect from their chosen card or the aces, or what have ya.

Well said!

 

[magyk11]

i know that some people won't agree with me, but this is just my opinion.

agree with the fact that coin magic is harder BUT i also think that card magic is easier which is why it makes it hard.

i do both coin magic and card magic and for card magic, although simpler, it can be hard to perform, because if you don't perform with good misdirection and patter, then the spectator will see right through you. with card magic you really need to sell the trick to them, which is why some of the simpler magic is so good.

but coins on the other hand, may take more practice, but once you have the trick down perfectly along with angles, you don't have to use the same presentation as in card magic. you don't necessarily have to sell the trick like you have to do in card magic.

both coin magic and card magic both have their difficulties, so we can't really go around and judge why some people do one kind of magic over the other.

i do agree that coin magic scares people away with the aspect of it being hard to do. i almost gave up when starting coin magic. but now i perform the tricks that i know with confidence, and the same thing goes with my card magic. but either way, i don't think that people should get scared away from coin magic just because of it's difficulty... i think that you should try and go outside of your comfort zone and try new types of magic. it's like trying food, you never know if you are going to like it if you don't try it.

well that is my 2 cents

Cheers

 

[magyk11]

as to what Orb said about how long it takes to practice and perfect a card trick compared to a coin trick.

since i am mainly a card magician i will answer... it takes anywhere between 3 days to a month maybe more. there are some tricks out there that are super easy and i can perform right away, while other's like Ray Kosby's Raise Rise that take months to learn. (i still haven't perfected that one)

but the same goes for coin magic. for instance, when i first learned Chris Kenner's ThreeFry, it took me about 2 to 3 days to be able to perform in front of an audience and have them be astounded. but other tricks that are more advanced will take longer..

so well my point is that both coin magic and card magic have their difficulties... you can't say that coin magic is necessarily harder unless you compare the difficulty of a coin trick to a card trick with the same difficulty. because there are some easy coin tricks out there and the same goes for card magic.

so i hope that you can kinda see where im going with this.

~joe~

 

[Andy.Boss.Glass]

as to what Orb said about how long it takes to practice and perfect a card trick compared to a coin trick.

since i am mainly a card magician i will answer... it takes anywhere between 3 days to a month maybe more. there are some tricks out there that are super easy and i can perform right away, while other's like Ray Kosby's Raise Rise that take months to learn. (i still haven't perfected that one)

but the same goes for coin magic. for instance, when i first learned Chris Kenner's ThreeFry, it took me about 2 to 3 days to be able to perform in front of an audience and have them be astounded. but other tricks that are more advanced will take longer..

so well my point is that both coin magic and card magic have their difficulties... you can't say that coin magic is necessarily harder unless you compare the difficulty of a coin trick to a card trick with the same difficulty. because there are some easy coin tricks out there and the same goes for card magic.

so i hope that you can kinda see where im going with this.

~joe~

from the way your talking, i dont believe (coin or card magic) you have much down for audiences. Two to three days to perform three fry?


Most all ungimmicked good coin magic you have to be a complete master at to get any sortof reaction at all.

Card magic for most people: pick a card, any card, and pow! its on top. Not too hard, all you need is to pick two cards up in a death grip and so it around.

or three piles of seven cards... you know the rest.

More advanced card techniques are only going to be used by more advanced magicians, because a normal "card magician" wont put the proper amount of time into practicing it, in this case raise rise.


Raise Rise is NOT hard, but instead incredably knacky. But once you have the ARM move down, youve got the basic effect.


While card routines CAN be based entirely on one move, coin routines cannot. You can only see a french drop or a retention vanish soo many times before you get bored. All the good coin routines use much more than one move AND you have to have perfect technique, whereas you CAN skimp on technique in card magic and still get reasonable good reactions.


And another thing, coin magic is based around PALMING. card magic is based around the PASS. Palming is much harder to get away with, because you donr have much misdirection to palm while they are burning your hands. Your angles are almost NEVER completely covered.

You dont have to master the palm in card magic to be GOOD. But as said before, coin magic is almost entirely dependant on it. The pass and its variations can be reasonably covered, theres always easy substitues for the pass, but not too many in coin magic for the palm.

 

[Orb]

Thanks for sharing Magyk, you are completely right when you say that tricks have to be compared to their relative difficulties. But my main point was that the difficulty, in comparison to the effect is usually what differs in coin and card magic. I'm quite sure that a well executed ACR routine (I bring that up alot) would be able to give much stronger reactions than Chris Kenners ThreeFry, and an ACR routine would be well much easier to execute. So the... lets make up a term here, RPD (Reactions per Difficulty) would be much better.

"...for card magic, although simpler, it can be hard to perform, because if you don't perform with good misdirection and patter, then the spectator will see right through you. with card magic you really need to sell the trick to them, which is why some of the simpler magic is so good.

but coins on the other hand, may take more practice, but once you have the trick down perfectly along with angles, you don't have to use the same presentation as in card magic. you don't necessarily have to sell the trick like you have to do in card magic."

I'm not fully sure if I understood your sentance, are you saying that card magic requieres more misdirection and pattern than coin magic? Could you also explain this part:
"but once you have the trick down perfectly along with angles, you don't have to use the same presentation as in card magic."
To me right now it doesn't make sense but you might have good arguments behind it. Thanks for sharing mate!

 

[magyk11]

while that being said, both magic forms depend on different things... i agree that coin magic is based on palming and angles. but card magic is based on many things, not necessarily the pass. because i never use passes. i have other ways.

and you can't compare an ACR routine to all coin tricks because an ACR routine is an easy trick. you need to compare it to harder card magic.

because there is harder card magic out there. and card magic does have a lot of difficlt sleights that are in fact angly.

you cannot really compare two different magic forms because each art form has different aspects that make it difficult.

 

[magyk11]

Thanks for sharing Magyk, you are completely right when you say that tricks have to be compared to their relative difficulties. But my main point was that the difficulty, in comparison to the effect is usually what differs in coin and card magic. I'm quite sure that a well executed ACR routine (I bring that up alot) would be able to give much stronger reactions than Chris Kenners ThreeFry, and an ACR routine would be well much easier to execute. So the... lets make up a term here, RPD (Reactions per Difficulty) would be much better.

"...for card magic, although simpler, it can be hard to perform, because if you don't perform with good misdirection and patter, then the spectator will see right through you. with card magic you really need to sell the trick to them, which is why some of the simpler magic is so good.

but coins on the other hand, may take more practice, but once you have the trick down perfectly along with angles, you don't have to use the same presentation as in card magic. you don't necessarily have to sell the trick like you have to do in card magic."

I'm not fully sure if I understood your sentance, are you saying that card magic requieres more misdirection and pattern than coin magic? Could you also explain this part:
"but once you have the trick down perfectly along with angles, you don't have to use the same presentation as in card magic."
To me right now it doesn't make sense but you might have good arguments behind it. Thanks for sharing mate!

sorry lol. im not saying that one magic form requires more presentation. im just saying that they both require different tpes of presentation.

 

[Andy.Boss.Glass]

while that being said, both magic forms depend on different things... i agree that coin magic is based on palming and angles. but card magic is based on many things, not necessarily the pass. because i never use passes. i have other ways.

and you can't compare an ACR routine to all coin tricks because an ACR routine is an easy trick. you need to compare it to harder card magic.

because there is harder card magic out there. and card magic does have a lot of difficlt sleights that are in fact angly.

you cannot really compare two different magic forms because each art form has different aspects that make it difficult.

Basing card magic on the pass is not my theory, its Aaron Fishers, and it makes a lot of sense.

generally speaking, even EASY coin magic is still much harder and more angly than even an intermediate card effect.

 

[magyk11]

i still don't think that it is right to decide which is harder because they are two different types of magic that require different things.

 

[Andy.Boss.Glass]

i still don't think that it is right to decide which is harder because they are two different types of magic that require different things.

no they are not, they are close up, and sleight-of-hand dependant

 

[KeoSilver]

I would like to ask my fellow magicians who have no interest in coin magic simply - why not?

I feel personally that I didn’t get into coin magic just because I really didn’t have all that many coins around, (money burned many a hole in my pockets at a younger age) Now that isn’t to say that I couldn’t of done a bobo switch with stones but I at that age I didn’t make that connection. What I did have laying around was a deck of cards and resources such as Libraries and Internet. I would sit in front of a computer screen and toil with cards and learn a good self-working trick 21 card trick.

I guess it was the fact that it was instant gratification also that held me to cards, learning a classic palm was all good and all but when I got a decent classic palm, I had five other card effects that I could perform well, See what I am saying?

I just believe that cards require a lot less time and effort to perfect a good card effect then learning and perfect one movement of a complex coin routine. I mean once you got the classic palm, you learn the back palm UGHHH you say to yourself and move on.


The entire post above was just personal experience; I enjoy coin magic and card magic as well as the general close-up and other umbrellas of magic.