The fallacy of the bottom deal...

Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by visualartist, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. Contrary to the popularity of the bottom deal among magicians,movies,T.V.,forumers who say its the only cheating move a mechanic would need,ect
    but statistically speaking the unsung number-two man is the most efficient at the card table.

    Right off the bat,consider marked cards. They are almost completely useless to the cellar man simply because the markings on the backs of the bottom cards will not be in view. The second dealer on the other hand has the back in plain view all the time and can save it for themselves or give to other confederates.

    Point number 2,the bottom card stays fixed until the cellar man takes it,where as the top card changes continuosly during the course of a legitimate deal. In a seven card draw game of poker he has the advantage of seeing up to thirty five top cards before the draw.

    the rise in popularity of blackjack through the years in licensed casinos and illegal gambling joints created a demand for second dealers but not so much for bottom dealers who are more or less thwarted in this game by having the burned cards on the bottom of the deck.

    The second dealer also need not necessarily have to stack the deck,nullify the cut,and so on, whereas the bottom dealer has to get a stack of cards on the bottom and keep them there through false shuffles and cuts.
    Seconds dont even need marked cards now that I think about it.Merely peeking at the top card is effective enough.
    And to wrap it up second dealers can have a naturalness bottom dealers have a hard time to achieve.And naturalness is crucial at the table. And the bottom will always have that tell tale swish no matter how good that cellar man is.Ive caught that sound from very accomplished mechanics.An example I could give you guys are Dan and Dave on time warp. An amazing bottom deal but the swish is noticeable.
    The Bottom deal is great no question of it,but it is greatly ovverated and second dealing drastically underrated.
  2. And another thing is that 60% of the time you will not be dealing the cards, I do not know how you guys play but we usually rotate dealers.

    Thats when palming and swithching cards comes in play. I also do think that knowing how to crimp cards in a natural way in front of the other witouth drawing suspicion will also give you an edge on the game.
  3. Besides probably being more useful, am I the only one who thinks the second deal is harder than the bottom deal? Honestly, I've pulled off a bottom dealing set up where I was dealing for 3 friends and me; I got the four aces every time, and I did it about 3 times in a row. No one noticed, and I've only been practicing bottom dealing for a little over 2 weeks.
    Second dealing, however, I wouldn't even imagine trying to fool anyone with right now, and I've been practicing that for over 2 months.
  4. Second Dealing has a lot of applications in magic, but it is entirely reliant upon marked cards in gambling (assuming you need to run up a stock greater than 1 card). If you could introduce a cold deck anytime you like, then there are 1,000 other advantages that you could take that wouldn't involve card handling. Taking out cards, putting in duplicates of others, stacking the entire deck (to then blind shuffle and cut), etc. This would be the gambling equivalent of using a gaff. That's great and all, but you need to be sitting with people that don't mind you pulling out your own deck of cards for your deal.

    That said, the stock of 1 card is an advantage, and it is much easier to deal seconds than bottoms. If you stock an ace on top and you're playing blackjack, then you're sitting pretty and you can win whenever you like. However, if you're playing poker, the 1 card isn't going to swing much. If you can't read the cards, seconds doesn't help you much in a game.

    If you want to sit down and play for an advantage with anyone at any time, the bottoms, centers or Greek is going to be necessary. Of these options, bottoms are generally preferable. The noise issue is greatly exaggerated in my opinion, as I have never played cards in a silent room with everyone listening for a swish. Usually there is plenty of noise, and no one is paying anymore than casual attention to my hands. If you're getting burned. or playing in a library or church, it would be inadvisable to try and deal bottoms unless you really know what you're doing.
  5. Well both deals certainly have their uses. But yes for using the second deal you need to have a way for knowing the top cards as you deal for it to be truly effective in that sense. But if for some reason you guys have really decided that your goal in life is to cheat your friends, or grandma, out of five bucks every other friday night, since I doubt any of you are vegas backroom material, then I wouldn't worry all that much about people noticing. The only way you can notice someone who has actually spent the time to properly learn the deal, is if you know what to look for. Unless of course you have done some magic for your friends before hand, then they might be a little more suspicious. I know I would.
  6. THe people I usually play with know of all the books I have on card cheating so I'm not even allowed to deal lol. I just practice these things to make myself feel better haha
  7. The problem with second dealing is that you don't know what cards are going to other players when you're second dealing. You are very likely to lose some important cards as you're holding back, because once you take the card to deal it, there's no turning back.

    Bottom dealers can pretty much deal any cards to anywhere, from any deck - no need for marks. Very little skill is required to hold the bottom stock (which, by the way, can be arranged when gathering the cards of the last deal).

    Read Erdnase.

    As for D&D's bottom deal, it's not a very good example (huge finger flash). Here's a good example how deceptive it can be

    Read Erdnase.
  8. #8 visualartist, Sep 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2009
    Yeah,in the table setting where we are talking about that is never gonna fly.Thats having the burned cards at the bottom of the deck as ive discussed before.
    A friend of mine did that at a game and they caught the son of a beeotch because of the obvious last three jacks of the last hand just so happened to come back again together to one player.

    As RD said before,in joints or house games every person deals the next hand.Stacking the deck will be a huge hassle.
    A second dealer can peek at multipe cards throughout that hand(as I said before)and a bottom dealer would have to settle with whats on bottom. If a second dealer could do Michael Macdougalls variation of the back peek he would be invincible with an honest shuffled pack of cards.
    This is useless for the baseman.
  9. If you are already dealing the second,you should already have the card you need reserved.
  10. Are you forgetting about the cut that the player next to the dealer has to make? Its another obstacle that the baseman has to overcome.
    Second dealers dont need to worry about it because..well ive already said it in another post.
  11. Wrong, Wrong and wrong.

    If you dealing seconds and know how to do it decently. Then you obviously know the order of the stack.

    It takes a lot of skill to actually have a GOOD bottom or 2nd Deal. You have to have good timing and rhythm.
  12. I am not sure about who you are playing with but constantly looking at the deck as you deal cards is something that would flag as unnatural to anyone at the card table. Also say you are playing 7 card draw and you hold out an ace on the second deal you may deal the other 3 to different spectators inadvertently. You may be right in theory however at the card table you NEED to be right in practice.
  13. #13 visualartist, Sep 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2009
    Dude,peeking is,by definition,done in such a manner that you cant get caught.
    It is completely possible and very ingenious.
    The back peek I mentioned is a peek done a fraction of a second while dealing out! Everything looks natural and smooth.
  14. No its not.
    Not at all.
    Most of the dealers who specialize in blackjack and stud poker(where the hole card is extremely important) can turn a nice profit merely by peeking at the top card and then controlling it.
  15. Unfortunately I myself still heard that swish when dealing the four kind but yes,alot more deceptive that Dan/dave
  16. Steve Forte refers to the bottom deal as "the grand-daddy of all the gambling moves". He is the best in the world when it comes to gambling moves. Erdnase mentions the bottom deal as "the greatest single accomplishment". Still you're saying that second dealing is better?

    Shuffle a couple of extra cards to the bottom so they can be burned and you're left with your stack. Not a big deal.

    1. Don't make it obvious. Only an idiot would deal the winning hand of the previous round to himself. Gather the cards from different hands or find the ones you need during your shuffle.
    2. Having three cards from a previous deal does not prove anything anyway. There is nothing unnatural about same cards coming up two hands in a row.

    Why? Do the dirty work when it's your time to deal. If you wanted to cheat on every round you'd only be asking for trouble. Real cheaters only use their skills a couple of times tops during the whole evening. They know when to do it to get the money.

    That sounds awefully lot of work doesn't it? With all that crazy peeking and glimpsing action going on there are a lot of moments to get caught looking at the cards. Deal from the bottom and you can look anywhere you want.

    Here's the problem. Let's say that you are reserving an ace for yourself or for your partner. The second card (or the third, or the fourth) from the top just happens to be another ace. Now you would accidentially deal away a card that would fit oh-so-well in your hand. And this could happen anywhere during the deal if two good cards happen to be near each other. How would you avoid that? Peek 30 cards and memorize the order?

    And you are forgetting to read Erdnase. Have a partner to cut the deck. You can even do a shift if you're feeling rambo - but really, have partner. Now you're probably gonna say that second dealing is superior because you can do it without a partner. I'm sure though that the second dealer will look a lot better than a bottom dealer when he wins the round during his deal with his fancy marked cards and constant peeking.

    Oh, and in some tables the dealer can't even play the round, he can only deal. Another fine reason to work with a partner.

    What? I know how to deal seconds at least decently, but I have no idea how I'd "obviously know the order of the stack" because of that. And wasn't the biggest advantage of second dealing that you don't have to have stacks?

    Seriously, what?

    Just tried with headphones on. Still can't hear it.

    Just for comparison let's see this:

    What bottom dealer needs to do to get strong cards to a selected hand:

    -Locate the desired cards through shuffling or simply when gathering the cards of the last deal.
    -Do a false shuffle to keep the cards controlled.
    -Step or crimp the cards for the cut (or shift).
    -Deal singles, deal one bottom. Repeat two more times. Total of three fake deals.

    What a second dealer needs to do to get strong cards to a selected hand:

    -No need to locate cards.
    -If a desired card is on the top, false shuffling is needed to keep it there. Or not, since you're gonna lose it in the cut anyways without a partner.
    -Do some glimpsing to see what's about to come and if there are any good cards near.
    -If the top card is a desired card then you need to do five false deals (if there are five players with you. If more, more work for you).
    -Do some more glimpsing during the dealing and do second deals after you see a card that you like. Repeat this as long as you can or as long as you have good cards. Total of incredibly many fake deals and looking at the cards during the deal.

    To sum up: Bottom dealer gets the cards that he knows he's getting. Only a couple of false deals during the procedure. A few moments to get caught. Second dealer gets cards that happen to come. Lots of peeking and lots of false moves. Many moments to get caught.

    One more thing: when you are doing a peeking action that obviously means that the card's face needs to be seen. As it is needed to be seen, that also means that all the players on around the table who happen to have somewhat functional eye(s), could also possibly see the face of the card. So every time you peek that's a new moment to get caught. Every time you deal the second card, that is a moment to get caught.

    And actually two more things:

    1. Listen to Steve Forte
    2. Read Erdnase.
  17. Do you always base your opinion on what others say?
    If you read my first post,I said more efficient.Statistically speaking,the number two man is the number one mechanic.Look up the definition of the word efficient.

    Never said he did that.It has to be from that last round where you know the cards already are,constant shuffle of the cards to locate indifferent cards are highly suspect according to laypeople and cheat detectives.
    That doesnt matter. It doesnt account for the other players actions.
    well durr,Never said to do the dirty work any other time.Of course you wouldnt do it every round(every round the mechanic is dealer). Im not lester murphy here

    It sounds,but its not. Mechanics who have been in the fray and know their stuff dont worry about it. If its in the mechanics routine,he knows how to do it without looking suspect.Michael MacDougall did all that "crazy peeking" under the watchful eyes of 100 luminaries.

    There are always complications,though not likely to happen often.At least it hasnt happened to me yet. Now remember I said about the rise in popularity of blackjack where there was a demand for second dealers,there is hardly a problem there.
    Didnt I already discuss marked cards and peeking?
    And I never said to work with a confederate.
    Lookk guy,its not always like it is in the books. If it were as simple as having your partner cut the cards everytime your dealing,I wouldve adressed it.

    You cant but I did. Oh well.

    As I said before,the number two man need not necessarily nullify the cut,stack the deck,and so on. Nor must the number-two man need resort to marked cards.Second dealers who specialize in blackjack and stud poker can make a nice profit by merely peeking at the top card and controlling it.
  18. If you are dealing 2nd's without a stack. IE: the aces being in an order you want them. Then you are an idiot. Any card guy will tell you that if you can 2nd Deal, you can do a very minor deck stack under peoples noses. With whatever method you want. A Cull, A Milk build shuffle. etc etc. Otherwise, what would be the point of Dealing 2nd's if you don't have the card where you want them.
  19. If you're stacking during the shuffles then why wouldn't you just stack all the way so you wouldn't have to do any false deals after the stacking procedure?

    The point of dealing seconds when you don't have cards where you want them to be is to control desired cards as they show up during the deal. Basicly you are holding back good cards as they appear. Look back in the thread for more information.

    Visualartist, I understand your point and respect it. Second dealing sure has its advantages compared to bottom dealing, but then again bottom dealing has features that the second dealing doesn't. Let's leave it at that, shall we?

    As for your question, do I base my opinions on what others say? -No. Do I take the advantage of learning from the experts of our craft? -Yes. Do I agree with everything that the experts say? -No, but I always try to understand why they think/thought that way. I just might learn something.
  20. Hi can anyone tell me where Mickey Macdougalls back peek is published. Also, Walter Scott disagreed with Erdnase over the bottom deal, just to throw that in there.

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