What Is Wrong With Magic as an Art Today...

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Sep 2, 2007
10
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First off, I think we have a really great thing going on here and alot of feelings and ideas have been expressed. There are several problems we have within our small community. And here are my feelings on the subject:

Exposure: Yes, this is a hinderance to our art, but nothing more. This is more strongly felt by our younger members as they are the one mostly effected by this. As it is the more simplistic effects that are revealed, and those are usually the first ones that we learn. This leads to frustration, in our early progression. We feel that all that we have learned and put effort into has been ruined by some heartless person that has no respect for what we do. but here is my anecdote to this. I was performing for a group of coworkers one night and the subject of levitation was brought up. Several them asked if I could do this, but before I could answer, one of them got up and explained the balducci method, popularized by Mr. Blaine, after this simple explination, I got up and performed the balducci levitation as it should be performed, with my best acting(sorry, I won't reveal my presentation). None the less every person there still believed that I levitated. My point in this story is that, even if the audience is aware of the method, your presentation is what sells the illusion. Remember, it is still an illusion, it is your job to make them believe you.

Mentorship: This is a problem I am dealing with. It is difficult to find a mentor, for many reasons. My issue is that I am in the Army, but I will deal with that on my own terms. As for others, it is very difficult for one to prove themselves, in order to impress a mentor into taking one under thier wing. Many of the older artist see the younger ones, and have preconceived judgements, but the nature of our art is mystery, and the passage of knowledge is difficult to obtain, we can only overcome this by persevering and making ourselves available to all the knowledge and experience we can obtain. If you truly want a mentor, then in due time he will find you. As the adage says: When the student is ready, the master will appear. (Lance Burton don't make me stalk you. j/k)

Artistry: I must agree with Mr. Houchin. It is on the artist to protray what they do as an art. I explain this to people all the time, especially after a mentalism routine. We are skilled at what we do and people should respect that. But, it is on ourselves to earn that respect. What we do is more than just simple tricks and slights, as many people see it now. As we all know, most of what we do is rather simplistic, but it is the presentation that takes the skill of hiding the technique. It is this part of what we do that the laymen do not see, they jsut see the presentation and the effect, but not the efforts taken to make sure they can't see what is really happening. Thus, the true art is hidden. I'm not saying that we should show them how hard it is to conceal our methods, but we can explain to them that we are illusionist and this a great art.

Thus concludes my rant. Good day.
 
1. Excessive exposure, such as on video-hosting websites etc. This isn't a very important issue, but nevertheless, it's quite irritating.
2. Beginners not understanding the time it takes and the dedication it takes to become a magician.
3. Excessive secrecy of magicians.

So you don't like exposure... but you think magicians are too secretive? I say indecisiveness is what is killing magic. People going "Oh we are so unrecognized as an art" but when someone exposes something to expand the art everyone is like "OH NOES NOT THE EXPOSURE" Seriously people, make up your minds.
 
Sep 1, 2007
38
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Hong Kong
So you don't like exposure... but you think magicians are too secretive? I say indecisiveness is what is killing magic. People going "Oh we are so unrecognized as an art" but when someone exposes something to expand the art everyone is like "OH NOES NOT THE EXPOSURE" Seriously people, make up your minds.

Make be we can put it this way.....

secretive is to the ART itself: we cannot tell people magicians can't DO magic.
people like Copperfield and Cyril impressed the world, because the lay public BELIEVE they are the real thing.

When you ever reach that status, we can no longer make people think that we learned magic. We can only make them think that while we grew up just like any other trickster, we have done our chores and our bag of tricks, but at the same time, we actually do POSSESS some magic, that made us one tiny step better than the norm, just a bit more special than the rest.

Here is the problem.....can the WHOLE community of magicians be JUST as good as everyone else? Are we even allowed to let the lay public submerge into the truth that magic can be developed into the art?


Maybe why people don't recognise it, is because they don;t think the tricks that the real MAGICIANS do, can ever be actually learnt.

In other words, if you tell them you LEARN magic, they will already think "okay, magic tricks."

That's another thing that separates magic from any other performance art (music and drama).

We can't let the lay public know we are learning everything and not actually possess some real magic. It's simply contradicting to tell people to believe your magic at the same time have them recognize the fact that you LEARNT your way through magic.


another issue, and that is towards the problem of not being able to make an overall progress for the art.

The community today is simply too large, and many will try to get attention for their own, because they don't even have the idea to think for helping magic to progress as a whole group.

IF we don't even LOOK LIKE a community to the lay public, there won't be an overall image; all image would be directed to individual success.

But maybe that is another problem; maybe magic simply can't exist as a broad community of people and openly admitting that the art is made up of skills itself. I mean, should the public be known to the idea that you can really learn
"real MAGIC"?

It's the idea of MAGIC itself that limited it's progress: if you EVER become among the top magicians, you can't TELL people, or even make people think you actually LEARN magic, and not JUST POSSESSNG magic.
 
So the laypeople think David Copperfield has actual supernatural abbilities just because his props are bigger? I'd just like to point out right now, there is no such thing as REAL magic, whether its a thousand dollar stage production, or a kid with a deck of cards, it's all trickery, its all misdirection, it's all a lie. There is no REAL magic. I do think your view is similar to mine however, that the reason people don't accept is as an art is because no one is original. These big productions are things people havent seen, because they are so expensive, people see them as original and are wowed by them. People see a card trick, they have seen a thousand card tricks and think they are all the same and just push them off to the side as something neat once in a while.

To be honest, while cynical, I don't think soceity will ever been accepted as a mainstream artform, especially in todays society because it can't spread. If magic spreads too much then it stops being magical, and soon levitating becomes lame like card tricks to the common man. Because the basis of magic is the secrecy rather than the sharing and collaboration to improve, it can't reach a level of public awareness without being overshadowed by scale.

I personally see no need for magic to grow, why does it need to be accepted by the mainstream? Sure you get the occasional person calling you a "nerd that lives in the basement" or something similar, but aren't magicians about the reactions, and entertaining people? Who cares what the people think of you. If you are doing this for public acceptance then you have probably made a missguided choice in hobby/artform.

If you think about it though, no small timers are accepted in society. Garage bands are considered to have no talent, it's only when they get a record label that people actually care. No one takes painters seriously anyway, most people think modern art is a joke, a red dot on a white canvas is now considered art, it's rediculous. I say stop worrying about labels, peoples conceptions, and do magic for the reason it has lasted this long, to entertain people.
 

JPK

Sep 1, 2007
22
0
Scotch Plains, NJ
Something I heard Ian Rowland say...

I remember seeing Ian Rowland (Full Facts Book Of Cold Reading ) asked about this very problem. He basicly said that the problem with magic is that too many talented magicians are spending all their time typing on internet forums and bickering instead of doing what they should be doing. Going out and enteraining people. Not a direct quote, but pretty close.
JPK
 
Aug 31, 2007
263
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Exposure meaning people who unecessarily teach for free on popular video sites, specifically.

Excessive secrecy, if you read my post, refers to magicians being too afraid to tell others that what they do isn't real magic. Which I believe shouldn't be the case.

They are 2 different things.

Anyway, like I said, exposure isn't a very important issue, it's just irritating. Exposure shows immaturity of the youths, which they do not know how to respect an art. Exposure also hurts the magic market at the same time. Plus it isn't nice.

Please focus on my point about the secrecy, not the exposure. In fact, just ignore the exposure part. Thanks.

- harapan. magic!
 
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Sep 2, 2007
297
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Why has magic become so bad? like earlier said because of bad magicians. Who expose on youtube or practice ten mintues and go ask, would you like to see a card trick. Very important that when you learna new card trick you at least practice it for 16 hours (not straight) probabaly more, so every thing is perfect. and i don't think there's nothing wrong with magic today that wasn't wrong with magic yesterday. just the fact that there have been a lack of magicians and people have lost touch of what magic is. but, people like david and criss are stilll keeping this art alive
 

LeeAsher

theory11 artist
Aug 31, 2007
319
0
Eugene, Oregon
www.leeasher.com
All comments made so far are great!

It's such a tough question because we walk the thin line of hypocrisy when answering this type of question. For example, I've been known to exhibit all the bad characteristics mentioned in this thread so far.

Sometimes I know I'm not as powerful, as mysterious, as iconic as I should be when performing magic for the laity. So when I make my next statement -- please don't hold it against me.

In my opinion, other than not being yourself (as stated in one of the theory11 videos), another problem with magic today is it's become trivialized.

A couple of centuries ago, Robert Houdin was sent to quell an impending revolt in Algeria using his magical abilities. <Light and Heavy Chest>

While the Asher Twist or WITNESS would give Afghanistan a 'good run for their money' -- my card magic is clearly not stopping any conflicts.

Blame technology for advancing, blame audiences for becoming smarter, blame it on saturation of the magic market -- however in the end, it's nobody's fault.

We need to try and fix this problem if we want magic to grow in a positive direction. We must find truthful reasons for why the world should care.

Until we figure that out -- we are doomed to keep spinning downward in a depressing spiral.

That's what I think is wrong with magic today.

(walking a thin line of hypocrisy) Asher
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TRM

Sep 1, 2007
44
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I agree with all of those who've said that magic isnt respected anymore because of those that go and expose magic tricks or sleights on youtube or some other site
once lay people see how a trick is done, there is no "wow factor", its gone
I mean, its hard for me to explain but magic is supposed to be unbelievable and out of this world, but when magicians start exposing tricks and sleights, it makes magic "just something else"
thats why I think magic isnt really considered an art or respected
 
Sep 2, 2007
5
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Chico, CA
There's no way to stop exposure from happening... there is no way to stop poor performers... Unless one of you wants to volounteer your time to hop on a jet and go around the world dealing out spankings to all the aforementioned offenders. You're probably going to have to figure out a way to deal with them.
This site is a great start. A community, focused on furthering the art. Now we throw in some well directed conversation/debate about theory, basics, and some psychology. Done (or at least a good start.) Then we provide a place to buy quality, cutting edge material. Almost there...
Now if our CEO keeps his main focus where it's at, and off of the almighty dollar, we're at least one step closer to getting where we want.
 
Aug 31, 2007
308
0
California
Greetings! Welcome to our first discussion. Our first topic is a broad one & one that many of you will have strong opinions about. There are many different directions that this discussion may go, so I'll start.

The biggest thing I see wrong with magic today is that it is NOT respected as an art. Now that is a very easy complaint to make, however, if you ask the average person on the street to list off as many of "the arts" as they can - I would bet money that magic would not be one of them.

Granted, magic is becoming more popular & is trending upward within our society (due in large part, I believe, to shows like Mindfreak, Room 401 & David Blaine) but if we all agree that our art is currently not given the respect it deserves, what can we do about it?

I think that before we can answer that question, we must ask a much harder one: Why is magic not respected as an art? It's easy to point the finger at laymen & say things like "they just don't understand us,” but I would argue that is a cop-out. We cannot & must not blame our audience for not "understanding" what we're about. It is our job as artists to get our point across.

The blame does not lie with our audience it lies with us. I think that we need to examine why it is that there are so many magicians who DO NOT take what we do seriously. One could argue that the lay public does not respect magic as an art because there are so many bad MAGICIANS out there who do not respect magic as an art...

...However, on the other side, Jamy Ian Swiss points out, in his book "Shattering Illusions," that there are plenty of BAD musicians & painters in the world as well, yet they do not seem to ruin the perceptions of their arts.

So where does this leave us? To me, it feels like the next generation of magicians is really striving to take the art seriously & to present it seriously. Is this the case? If so, is it just a matter of time before magic is given the recognition it deserves? Or are we, as magicians, playing the victim card here? Perhaps there is something psychologically pleasing about viewing ourselves as the underdogs - the struggling misunderstood artists. Is it all in our heads?

What do you guys think?

The blame is on magicians that don't perform magic as an art.

Look at "MindFreak" Criss Angel. Than look at the things we consider art. Dance, can be one of them. Criss Angel and Dance... There is a huge difference. You don't look at Angels magic and say, "wow that is art." His magic is just not presented that way. It is presented as "raw", "hardcore", "flashy", "extreme". Dance... Elegant... Fluent... etc.

It seems to me that there are plenty more bad magicians, than good ones.

I'd like to link to another thread here on Theory, that points out some of my views...

http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=640



EXPOSURE, is not the problem. How many laymen that you perform for, point you out on the fact that they know how all of your effects are done because they spend their lives on youtube searching for magic videos that they saw Criss Angel do? Not that many, unless you are performing for the younger generation that might just do that.

In a professional environment, this is not a problem, but not everyone works or performs in a professional environment. At schools and such, this may be a problem, but still. How many performances do you get that this will actually happen. MAYBE one in 15-20? Probably less than that.

If you want magic to be looked at as art. If you want magic to be respected. Perform that way. Perform your magic as if it is art. Look at magicians like Armando Lucero ( http://www.armandolucero.com/) and learn from them. Learn from their magic. The way they perform. IT IS ART. Study this type of magic. DON'T worry about buying the next best effect on the market. Or the next best cut, or the next best, raw, flashy, magic trick. Worry about your showmanship, your presentation, your magic.

Keenan
 
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I think the magicians of today are simply making magic to be just a series of tricks, when it could be SO much more. Yes, it might look good, but can you make the spectator's actually FEEL the magic? I think magicians are simply focusing too much on their selves when magic is really about the spectators. When you learn that magic should be performed, created, and enjoyed BY the spectators, then you will understand how to perform properly. Because performing for your own personal gain and for that of your spectators is a drastic difference.

Mitchell
 
Sep 2, 2007
22
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I already posted what I thought what was wrong with magic a couple pages back but I think I need to clear up what i think is wrong with Magic as an Art today.

First of all what is our art?
Our art is a secret art so we must treat it like a secret art. Not like an art which every sees everyday like paintings or music. Our art is a secret art like that of thieves, confidence men, spies, and even martial arts. Why? Everyone sees the ending effect but not what really is happening. We do not watch theives go to work, we only wake up to find our possessions gone. We do not know what a con man is planning that is why we are left waiting for our friends to return with our money. We do not see a spy getting info for his government, we only see a tourist visiting parliment. We do not see Tony Jaa training for 2/3 of the day, we only see him for 2 hours in a movie. People don't see magicians practicing their card skills all night, they only see a magic trick that lasts for a minute or two.

Considering our art is a secret art and understanding that magic is built upon secrets we must keep it a secret. I do not mean take down every magic website and magic store but we magicians need to be able to perform adequately to maintain the illusion of magic. If you cannot maintain the illusion of real magic then you have no business performing to an audience.

Magic is an ancient art, it's thousands of years old. The difference in between magicians now and magicians in the past is huge. Magicians now are caught out all the time because they do not devote themselves to the art. Magicians 60 years ago could walk into any room and captivate an audience for hours because they only had enough material to last them for a show and they had it down perfectly. Magicians now a days know the secret to so many tricks, dozens if I might say but they cannot perform any of them adequately. Most laymen would rather see 3 amazing feats of magic done flawlessly rather than 10 tricks that are 'okay'.

So what is wrong with magic as an art? Magicians, so treat it as an art.

The master painter does not take dozens of projects at the same time, they take one at a time and perfect it. It took Michelangelo 7 years to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and it was worth it. Magic will only give back to you what you give to it. The master sculpturist does not add rock to his sculpture, he starts with a big stone and he hacks away the inessentials and keeps only the parts he needs. To become a better magician stop trying to learn more tricks, get rid of the what your do not need and only keep the essentials.
 
Aug 30, 2007
195
0
First, I'd just like to say that this thread is unbelievable. The level of intelligence and thoughtfulness in some of these posts is incredible. I'll just chime in with my two cents.

I think that one of the major issues surrounding magic as an art is that it has been lagging behind the times for a while now. In the past few years, David Blaine has done a lot to modernize the look and feel of magic. But for the most part, when the public thinks of magic, they think of some creepy guy in a sparkling pink shirt throwing out canned jokes while doing a routine that hasn't evolved even the smallest amount in the past few decades. It's unfortunate that in plenty of cases, they're right.

It's hard to respect an art that feels outdated by 20 years. The music you hear on the radio right now (like it or hate it) is current. The style has evolved and the best producers in the industry are still innovating. There are still people making daring artistic choices in that field.

Similarly, ask people if they respect Blaine as an artist. The answer will be a resounding, "Yes." Ask them if they respect magic as an art or if they just automatically think of some socially awkward dude pulling silks out of his thumb tip, and you'll get the latter response much more often.

Good art is naturally innovative. People do respect magic when it is presented that way. Watch Wayne Houchin perform for a group of strangers if you don't believe me. They come away thinking, "Damn, that was cool. I have no idea how he did that." They respect what just happened.

People in general are too smart to respect cheesy, outdated routines performed by some creepy guy on autopilot. No body likes the 40-year-old guy at the college party who still tries to act like he's 20 and says things like "Word dawgs. Whatup in the hizzle?" That guy sucks. Magic shouldn't be that guy.

Dana
 
Sep 1, 2007
494
0
on Theory11.
I agree with Dana. I've seen quite a few nasty, crackly, VHS tapes of corny magicians that basically all do the same things, and have the same lack of a personality. I appreciate what David Blaine has done for the art and he's definitely brought magic into the 21st century and presented it in more of an artistic way rather than a cheap novelty. I'm eager to see what he is going to do in his new show in May.

-Matt
 
Sep 1, 2007
10
0
Preforming Style

One thing that a bunch of people hit on earlier but that I thought I'd hit on now is preforming style. A lot of people our focusing on preforming the next great trick rather than preform a simple trick in a stunning and beautiful way. How can we get the public to respect art what we hide from them? We can't. What we should want is for them to respect us as preforming artists. We can get them to respect us for how well we preform our effects as this is what they see and therefor how they will judge our preformances.
Hope you guys agree-
Andymo
 
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I have not read the whole topic, but will give my thoughts.

What is wrong with magic as an art today?

How about the fact that a ton of people are just doing magic, and not entertaining an audience. There is a huge difference BTW. Many kids are basically carbon copies of David Blaine. Why, I'll never know. But, it's not entertaining to an audience. It's just not. The only reason David Blaine is famous is because he got lucky.

To be successful in magic, you have to have a personality. You have to be likeable, and can't just say the same thing over and over again.

Criss Angel also got lucky. IMO, he is a manufactured magician*. What does that mean? Well, he used to be in a band. And, when they would take an intermission, he would go and do some magic in the crowd. I say he got lucky because someone from A&E was there, and took notice. Not because he was a great magician, just because he looked different and stood out. He was manufactured into a magician by other magicians that taught him, such as Jay Sankey, Luke Jermay, and his many other creative producers.

Too many kids are trying to be like that today, but they aren't realizing that they're boring to an audience. It's the cold hard truth though...and I know, because I've had to suffer through a 20ish year old man prforming magic before. All he said were things like "watch this" "look...watch closely"....and it WAS BORING!

So...how can we fix this? By focusing on magicians that know how to entertain an audience. Magicians such as Jay Sankey, David Roth, Denny Haney. These are real magicians that have stood the test of time, and know how to actually ENTERTAIN WITH MAGIC!

If we focus more on that, then hopefully the new kids and students of magic will see that just because David Blaine and Criss Angel are famous, doesn't mean they're the best.

Here's an example for ya...

You can get DB and CA to do their best piece of magic to an audience. I'll follow up their show with one routine...sponge bunnies. I can promise you that if you ask that audience what they remember a year later, they'll say the bunnies. Why? Because it's an entertaining piece of magic. It happens in the hands. And ALL audiences love it! Without a doubt! There's a reason why it's a classic in magic.


So...those are my thoughts on one thing that's wrong with magic, and how we can possibly try to change it. Start being an entertaining magician, and not a CA/DB copycat. That irritates more than anything to behonest.

Best.
Steve

* The Criss Angel story is true. I can assure you of that, as it came from a reliable source in magic that's close to CA. Him being a "manufactured magician" is the opinion of a friend of mine, and I too have to say the same thing after hearing his views on the subject.
 
Sep 1, 2007
5
0
45
McAllen, Texas
Before I begin, I have seen MANY great performers from all skill levels out there. My statements are general and are not targeting magicians as a whole. I am just simply stating my opinion.

What is wrong with Magic as an art today is that it is not treated like an art.
It is filled with mediocrity, out of the box performers. If people truly cared as they say they do, they would practice more rather than having pre-mature exposure of effects/sleights, etc.

People settle for mediocrity.
Although perfection is unobtainable, excellence is not. As seen in many videos and live performances, people do not even strive for just “good”. Many strive to be the first to put the newest trick on the market on you-tube. Many want to be the first to say “I can do it” even if it just consists of muddling through the moves. Want to say the have already performed it for a private party….etc, you get the picture.

People want instant-overnight success (money, fame, execution of the effect, recognition, own theatre).
Success means different things to different people……but what ever success means, they want it INSTANTLY.

The cookie-cutter syndrome
95% of magicians (hobbyists, amateurs, semi-pros….even professionals) have the same presentations for the same effects.

Popularity phases
When a new trick is released on the market………everyone is doing it (well almost everyone). Most everyone performs the mainstream effect at that time. I personally pick out the stuff that hardly anyone touches….the hidden gems in magic. Remember when scotch and soda came out? How about healed and sealed? What about Waving the Aces by Guy Hollingsworth.? They were all popular and mainstream….then as something new came out, they were dropped. The cycle continues. How many are still performing the mainstream effects last year? Probably very few.

Video Camera’s.
Many perform the wrong effects for camera’s and place it on a video sharing site. They should be using the camera’s privately for rehearsal instead. I do not have a single video of myself performing on the internet. (not that it means or doesn’t mean anything. I just prefer live performances).

They do not look at magic through a lay-persons point of view.
They are too focused on the technique or too focused on performing the perfect double…or what have you. Many magicians perform for themselves. When they get bored of the trick they drop it. Is magic about you or your audience? Look at Eugene Burger. He is still performing the same effects! He has different presentations, but the same effects.

What can be done? From the issues above, it is self-explanatory of what should be done. Be creative, do not rush things, it is ok to perform the same effect for many years, use your video camera’s for self-rehearsal, just because a new effect comes out you do not have to put it into your routines, look at magic through the spectators eyes.

In Magic,
 
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