Who here actually does xcm as a performance art?

[Steerpike]

Can Cardistry be a performance art? Yes it very well can be.

Then once again I have to ask who else is going to step up to the plate and do it? Everyone here talks a big game, but the proof is in the pudding.

And I've had this conversation before. The card specialists here at Theory 11 are all talk and no action. There's an easy way to prove me wrong, but none of them do it. Draven and visualartist are the only ones in this thread who have actually promised to get up and do something. I've had this conversation multiple times and this is the first time anyone has said they're actually going to go out and perform. That is so very sad. Everyone here is quick to claim that they're artists, but when actually asked to prove it, they call you names, accuse you of not understanding them, being a troll, or whatever and retreat back into the status quo of doing absolutely nothing. I can't be the only one who sees this as a problem.

 

[visualartist]

Draven and visualartist are the only ones in this thread who have actually promised to get up and do something.

Hopefully I'll have the video up by tomorrow afternoon or wednesday at the latest.
Im thinking of doing it in a interview format. Perform a little and then ask the audience two questions.
Would they be interested in seeing more of this as entertainment?
And, could it be considered a performance art?(to them)
Any more questions I should ask? I want to keep it simple.

 

[Mouseff]

So, I feel I have to say something to this too.

First of all I want to make clear that I am by almost every definition what has been called "Hobbyist" in this topic.

The reason I do Cardistry is that it looks freaking awesome. I mean come on, nobody here can really deny that, right?
I don't buy into that "push myself to the edge" bull**** either, Cardistry is nothing to get to know your potential at all. Do some sports for that. Watch "The Art Of Flight". They are pushing themselves.
For me it really is relaxing at its best. It's fun to be able to do those moves, you have to work, be concentrated, but at the same time it only keeps your mind slightly, and your body almost not, busy. So for me its perfect to chill out.
I don't really perform either. Sure, people who see me doing something might like it, but first of all I do it for myself. Sometimes when we play poker or something like that one of my friends goes like "come on mat do a trick", then I'm doing a few and they are happy and I had my fun and we play on, but it's not like I would go up to people like a street magician like "hey check my card spring out isn't that cool".

And now I want to say three things I really don't like about Cardistry and why I don't perform it too often:
1. People often want to see a magic trick after I do a Flourish. I'm no magician damnit!
2. I can do a couple of gambing moves though and that brings me to the next point: I really have to watch myself sometimes so I don't cheat. That sucks really hard.

3. And my final and most important Point is:
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ALL ARGUEING SO MUCH.
In the Cardistry community there are two extremely hating parties to almost everything
Cardistry vs XCM
Art vs not Art
Cardistry as Standalone vs Flourishing for Magic

I really don't think it matters too much.
What if Cardistry isn't a damn Art? Do the moves loose there beauty, elegance, awesomeness? NOOOOOOO!
What if XCM sounds like a twelve year old made it up? Do the moves care about their name? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
What if Cardistry would really kill lennart greens style? It seems to fit in Dan and Daves pretty well....

What I want to say is that in the end everyone uses Cardistry as he sees fit and as it fits his/her style and this whole arguments that erupt every 2 months really just suck. There is no use. Give up your fanboyness and try to help the community as a whole. This is no religion or something it is a HOBBY. It is supposed to make fun and you are not on some kind of Crusade for your big Idol.
You don't have to like LeBron to acknowledge the performance the Ballers are doing. You can keep on watching NHL and still acknowledge the fact that Basketball is still a, and in the NBA on highest level done, challenging, interesting in its way and pretty fun kind of sport.

So now that was a bit more than I'd planned, but I hope you think about it and take it to heart.
Mat.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't buy into that "push myself to the edge" bull**** either, Cardistry is nothing to get to know your potential at all. Do some sports for that. Watch "The Art Of Flight". They are pushing themselves.

So the only way to push myself toward something better is to risk a hospital visit? Please.

For me it really is relaxing at its best. It's fun to be able to do those moves, you have to work, be concentrated, but at the same time it only keeps your mind slightly, and your body almost not, busy. So for me its perfect to chill out.

Good for you. What does this have to do with other people?

1. People often want to see a magic trick after I do a Flourish. I'm no magician damnit!

A valid complaint. Though that has more to do with public perception than anything else.

3. And my final and most important Point is:
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ALL ARGUEING SO MUCH.

Because if we all sat around and pretended to agree on everything, nothing would get done.

I really don't think it matters too much.

Because you have deliberately chosen not to participate in the community. And while the petty politics are obnoxious, that does not automatically make all other arguments invalid.

What if Cardistry isn't a damn Art? Do the moves loose there beauty, elegance, awesomeness? NOOOOOOO!
What if XCM sounds like a twelve year old made it up? Do the moves care about their name? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Public perception matters to serious performers, because that impacts how, where, and when they can perform. Didn't you get just done complaining about how everyone wants you to do card tricks?

What if Cardistry would really kill lennart greens style? It seems to fit in Dan and Daves pretty well....

Oh my god, you seriously just said that.

What I want to say is that in the end everyone uses Cardistry as he sees fit and as it fits his/her style and this whole arguments that erupt every 2 months really just suck.

Then stop reading them.

There is no use. Give up your fanboyness and try to help the community as a whole. This is no religion or something it is a HOBBY.

No, it's a hobby for you. Do you think you get to speak for the entire community? Are you that arrogant?

You don't have to like LeBron to acknowledge the performance the Ballers are doing. You can keep on watching NHL and still acknowledge the fact that Basketball is still a, and in the NBA on highest level done, challenging, interesting in its way and pretty fun kind of sport.

What on earth are you on about?

So now that was a bit more than I'd planned, but I hope you think about it and take it to heart.
Mat.

No.

 

[Mouseff]

ok just to make a few things clear here:
There is a difference, in my opinion, between flame wars, like Art or Not, and a discussion. Those argmuents are always the same and I actually don't read them anymore. And flame wars are fanatics yelling at each other and nobody needs that, right?
Furthermore it is a Hobby for most of the Flourishers, of course not all, but I think for most, and even if you have it as a carreer you don't have the opinions like in a religion, do you? Is anyone here member of the "universal cardistry church" or something?

The thing about public perception I think am wrong about. It doesn't make a difference for ME, but from the "outside" it does. Agreed.

With the sports thing I was trying to say that it just depends on the style if you can actually use it, but in many of those flame wars pure magicans get involved who are trying to make our craft/art/skill look worse than theirs. Best argument that "public" perception really is a reason for arguing about wether its a skill or an art.
The whole paragraph sounded really good in German, but now that I read it again it looks kinda stupid....

Mat

P.S. "to push yourself" means as far as I know "to test your physical/intelectual(/spiritual) limits" and you don't test your limits with cardistry more than you do with juggling or playing a music instrument. In the beginning you can't play beethoven, but you don't push yourself in order to be able to play it, you practice. Of course you have reached your limits in the beginning, but you don't reach your ultimate limits and that is what counts I think. In the end when you can juggle 25 balls or what then you are pushing to the edge and that is a point very few people reach, be it cardistry or juggling.

 

[James555]

Hey guys!!


art/ärt/
Noun:

1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
2. Works produced by such skill and imagination.

I guess what this defines could be limited only to the imagination. But if we were to attempt to place Cardistry into this equation, would it be that hard to do?

"...human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form..."

Cardistry is visual. Cardistry is creative and limited only to one's imagination. I think it fits. Dunno about you guys. But I will say that some even argue if art actually HAS a definition. I will throw in a little from an old art philosophy class I took...I will splice it here and there and attempt not to take away from the important points here.

Hey Mike I think your right about cardistry being visual and I do believe cardistry could very well fit in that category of art. I'm just thinking that if you asked an actual artist, like someone who drew or painted, they would deny it being an art. A performance art definitely but just art no. A good point to remember is that most sculptures, paintings etc. can last for some amount of time. So people can see the art and it's not mobile. Cardistry however is extremely short term and cannot be viewed for very long. So, to conclude my point, I think cardistry would come under performance art.

 

[Mike.Hankins]

Hey Mike I think your right about cardistry being visual and I do believe cardistry could very well fit in that category of art. I'm just thinking that if you asked an actual artist, like someone who drew or painted, they would deny it being an art. A performance art definitely but just art no. A good point to remember is that most sculptures, paintings etc. can last for some amount of time. So people can see the art and it's not mobile. Cardistry however is extremely short term and cannot be viewed for very long. So, to conclude my point, I think cardistry would come under performance art.

Thanks for the reply! I wrote that because I am an artist. I used to draw all the time, and back in high school, even had an art scholarship thrown at me. I didn't want it, because I just don't like drawing for other people. And it showed...my portfolio had not one piece of work completed and because of that, I actually did very poorly in my art classes.

Personally, I tend to side with the idea that there is no real definition of "art". I think "art" is self-defined. What one person sees as art, another might find it to be just the opposite. And that is the beauty of these conversations being brought to the forums!

 

[James555]

Thanks for the reply! I wrote that because I am an artist. I used to draw all the time, and back in high school, even had an art scholarship thrown at me. I didn't want it, because I just don't like drawing for other people. And it showed...my portfolio had not one piece of work completed and because of that, I actually did very poorly in my art classes.

Personally, I tend to side with the idea that there is no real definition of "art". I think "art" is self-defined. What one person sees as art, another might find it to be just the opposite. And that is the beauty of these conversations being brought to the forums!

I completely Agree with your opinion, however I do think there is a thing that defines something as being a particular type of art by how long they last.
Because of the nature of some sculptures, they can be temporary or last for thousands of years. That being said makes cardistry too brief to be a work of art. so we can only conclude that is a performance art.
I think people become confused when it comes down to what makes art a type of art. It all comes down to how long it lasts.

Btw Mike, I love drawing!

 

[Mike.Hankins]

I completely Agree with your opinion, however I do think there is a thing that defines something as being a particular type of art by how long they last.
Because of the nature of some sculptures, they can be temporary or last for thousands of years. That being said makes cardistry too brief to be a work of art. so we can only conclude that is a performance art.
I think people become confused when it comes down to what makes art a type of art. It all comes down to how long it lasts.

Btw Mike, I love drawing!

This doesn't last very long...is this not art?

http://sloblogs.thetribunenews.com/sidetracked/2009/10/02/surf-art-that-doesnt-last/

 

[James555]

This doesn't last very long...is this not art?

http://sloblogs.thetribunenews.com/sidetracked/2009/10/02/surf-art-that-doesnt-last/

Mike my point is that cardistry is too too too brief to be a normal art
What you just showed me is art, it has been photographed and has been crafted by somebody and will last for a short while, not a few seconds. Even if it doesn't last for long it's classified art because it lasted. I guess all this is getting a bit confusing. What I'm trying to say is that it's been put down, it's been made.
Have you ever heard of Andy Goldsworthy? He does work like this, it can only be captured by photograph. His works are amazing.


Even so that work is incredible.

 

[Steerpike]

ok just to make a few things clear here:
There is a difference, in my opinion, between flame wars, like Art or Not, and a discussion. Those argmuents are always the same and I actually don't read them anymore. And flame wars are fanatics yelling at each other and nobody needs that, right?

The only fanatics yelling are the people who are just mad that I'm not kissing up to them like they're used to.

Furthermore it is a Hobby for most of the Flourishers, of course not all, but I think for most, and even if you have it as a carreer you don't have the opinions like in a religion, do you? Is anyone here member of the "universal cardistry church" or something?

That's a fallacious comparison. There's a whole lot of middle ground between, "Meh," and "Die, heathen scum!!"

With the sports thing I was trying to say that it just depends on the style if you can actually use it, but in many of those flame wars pure magicans get involved who are trying to make our craft/art/skill look worse than theirs.

Which no one has done so far.

P.S. "to push yourself" means as far as I know "to test your physical/intelectual(/spiritual) limits" and you don't test your limits with cardistry more than you do with juggling or playing a music instrument. In the beginning you can't play beethoven, but you don't push yourself in order to be able to play it, you practice. Of course you have reached your limits in the beginning, but you don't reach your ultimate limits and that is what counts I think. In the end when you can juggle 25 balls or what then you are pushing to the edge and that is a point very few people reach, be it cardistry or juggling.

Again, that's a fallacious claim. You're making an arbitrary distinction between personal limitations and the absolute peak of human performance, then claiming that you are not "pushing yourself" until you have reached the latter. That's a load of horse crap. I started a new vocal training program earlier this year that has allowed me to expand my range by half an octave in just a few months. There were nights where I couldn't sing anymore because my throat was aching from the exertion of trying to adapt my vocal cords to tension they had never gone to before. To say that I didn't push myself trivializes the work I'm putting in to become a singer.

You also said yourself that there are intellectual and spiritual limits to be challenged as well, yet you don't apply that to actual intellectual pursuits. It tells me that you didn't put a lot of thought into this opinion.

Are we really so jaded as a culture now that we're no longer impressed by anything less than superhuman or preternatural displays of talent?

 

[CaseyRudd]

Steerpike,

You're making it seem like it is ONLY Visualartist and Draven who are the only ones performing Cardistry to people. That is not the case. If you look back earlier in the thread you will see that I have performed Cardistry to laymen and friends alike. While I was in my busking stage, I took time away from performing magic to just dedicate time to performing Cardistry. I drew crowds of laymen to maybe up to 20 people looking at me perform flourishes. They were amazed at the manipulation of the cards. After I was done some came up to me and commented on how they have never seen anything like it before, like it was a new form of entertainment that was just shown to them. So in a way, some spectators can take Cardistry as a new entertainment form (like we are talking about). It definitely IS possible! You guys just have to give it a shot, which I 100% encourage if you haven't already.

Mike,

I used to like drawing and taking art too until I took art classes (I'm in an arts school now). I hate it terribly. A lot of creativity was taken away and since then I lost motivation for it. I wish that didn't happen because that has greatly impacted my vision in magic and Cardistry. It's difficult to come up with new effects, Cardistry moves, or variations to existing effects to put my touch on them. Oh well. It's awesome to know you used to be in art too!

 

[RDChopper]

Oh please...... Not this topic again... I have discussed it to death with Andrei and several other people about when Floruishing becomes art, and when it just is cuts with cards. But for the sake of the thread, I'll post my opinion once again.

* Doing Flourishes alone can't be art. You Can't express any message, or any emotion. To this day, I have only seen Flourishes that are either slow, fast, beautiful, or complicated. None of those classifications I mention are either messages or emotion.

Technically speaking ( And I mentions this from a school of art perspective), Cardistry cannot be called Art, because there are only 7 (if you want to call them) official arts named after the 7 muses of greek mithology.

"But what about martial arts??, they have the word ART in it!" Now I said before "technically", because literally anything can become art, from pooing to yo yoing, it just dependes on the person doing it. Alas, I have said time and time again, Cardistry has the potential for becoming art, but to thsi day I haven't seen a single video that proves me wrong.

Hell, I haven't seen a video of someone with a crowd in a street performing only cardistry to music. If any of you has a video like this, please send it my way .

I rest my case

 

[visualartist]

Oh please...... Not this topic again... I have discussed it to death with Andrei and several other people about when Floruishing becomes art, and when it just is cuts with cards. But for the sake of the thread, I'll post my opinion once again.

* Doing Flourishes alone can't be art. You Can't express any message, or any emotion. To this day, I have only seen Flourishes that are either slow, fast, beautiful, or complicated. None of those classifications I mention are either messages or emotion.

Technically speaking ( And I mentions this from a school of art perspective), Cardistry cannot be called Art, because there are only 7 (if you want to call them) official arts named after the 7 muses of greek mithology.

"But what about martial arts??, they have the word ART in it!" Now I said before "technically", because literally anything can become art, from pooing to yo yoing, it just dependes on the person doing it. Alas, I have said time and time again, Cardistry has the potential for becoming art, but to thsi day I haven't seen a single video that proves me wrong.

Hell, I haven't seen a video of someone with a crowd in a street performing only cardistry to music. If any of you has a video like this, please send it my way .

I rest my case

The case wasn't about it being art or not. It was about it being a performance art or merely that it should be performed.
Thats what we are TRYING to do,get people to perform this performance art. or what many people to consider this a performance art.
Steerpike-dead week at college is giving me hell so i'll upload the video as soon as i can.

p.s. Martial arts IS an art form. Kata practice and what you learn from the art. There is a progression from bu-jutsu(martial technique) to bu-do(martial way) to bu-shin(martial spirit). The techniques (jutsu) themselves are vehicles that allow the practitioner to approach the two higher levels of ethical and spiritual insight. It is the purest form of art there is.

 

[RDChopper]

The case wasn't about it being art or not. It was about it being a performance art or merely that it should be performed.
Thats what we are TRYING to do,get people to perform this performance art. or what many people to consider this a performance art.
Steerpike-dead week at college is giving me hell so i'll upload the video as soon as i can.

p.s. Martial arts IS an art form. Kata practice and what you learn from the art. There is a progression from bu-jutsu(martial technique) to bu-do(martial way) to bu-shin(martial spirit). The techniques (jutsu) themselves are vehicles that allow the practitioner to approach the two higher levels of ethical and spiritual insight. It is the purest form of art there is.

About "martial arts" of of the rules they gave me at school for something to be art, is that it has to have a message, not to yourself, but to the audience, I'm not saying it is "NOT" Art, my beef is that it is kinda like amm, how should I put it... Egoistical art, you do it only for yourself, the Art message you are creating is sended right at you. You know what I mean?

But yeah, it would be cool to see people performing cardistry, I usually use cardistry in the very beggining to catch people attention and deliver the message that "I mean bussines" after that I usually go with my performance

 

[visualartist]

About "martial arts" of of the rules they gave me at school for something to be art, is that it has to have a message, not to yourself, but to the audience, I'm not saying it is "NOT" Art, my beef is that it is kinda like amm, how should I put it... Egoistical art, you do it only for yourself, the Art message you are creating is sended right at you. You know what I mean?

But yeah, it would be cool to see people performing cardistry, I usually use cardistry in the very beggining to catch people attention and deliver the message that "I mean bussines" after that I usually go with my performance

well I do agree but in martial arts, it is the expression of the self from one's body. If everyone stuck to their training halls enclosed that would make sense, but worldwide competitions display this art form to the entire world. Painting art and keeping it in your house could be the same ego art as you described. Art is communication of feelings. And I believe, cardistry should be performed to audiences as it definitely can be considered a performance art.

p.s. trying not to get off subject with the martial arts, we can PM that subject

 

[RDChopper]

well I do agree but in martial arts, it is the expression of the self from one's body. If everyone stuck to their training halls enclosed that would make sense, but worldwide competitions display this art form to the entire world. Painting art and keeping it in your house could be the same ego art as you described. Art is communication of feelings. And I believe, cardistry should be performed to audiences as it definitely can be considered a performance art.

p.s. trying not to get off subject with the martial arts, we can PM that subject

Im so glad that we are on the same page bro