You are not an artist!

Jan 1, 2009
30
0
Poway, CA
Yes and no.

My point is that you don't get to call yourself an artist just because you feel like it. You have to actually do something artistic.

To all those interested, I recommend taking a look at Kenton Knepper's manuscript Mystery by Association. Agree or disagree with Kenton, it will give you a lot to think about.

That's what I thought, and I agree, magic and its art isn't something you become just because you know the secret behind one effect. And of course not everyone here will agree with you. But that's the beauty of opinion isn't it?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
Why not just encourage the wannabe magicians/artists to make their own way?

I'm challenging them to prove me wrong and become more than they are now. As it is, I'm in no position to do anything else.

But why be mean about it?

Because most people are just too nice to be useful.

Steerpike: Before I address the whole issue of who should or should not be considered an artist, what do you consider the definition of artist to be?

Does it matter?

It seems like a lot of people are disagreeing with what it means to be an artist, and therein lies the problem.

On the contrary, we're making great progress.

I suppose I agree with you for the most part. There are three legs of art that hold it up, like legs of a stool (as in a backless chair, not poo). There's the artist, who creates the art. Most practitioners of magic have this part down. The fact that the magic is happening pretty much ensures that there's someone creating it. Next, there's the art itself. The magic. Again, without it, we'd not be getting anywhere. Finally, and this is the part that is most commonly overlooked, is the audience. As an artist there is a point at which one must part with his or her art--that is, give it up to your audience to interpret as they will. That's where most people fail.

If we're using the stool analogy, then let us not also forget the artistic statement itself, the message. The seat that rests upon the three legs. Worth considering, wouldn't you say?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
i agree, i thinnk when a painter starts painting he is an artist.
maybe not a great one, but while he is practicing to become a great painter.
he is still an artist while doing so.

I never claimed to be an artist just because I could properly color within the lines.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
then that goes back to the issue of, when do you get to claim to be an artist

Indeed it does.

I've already answered that question in a roundabout way. The answer is peppered throughout the thread in various pieces. I'm just trusting on others to put them together.
 
I understand where you're coming from here. But in reality, how many pick up bands out there are there that ACTUALLY accomplish anything like creating their own music and preforming incredibly? Most of them are just people getting together and jamming. Don't get me wrong, there are those select few out there that have the potential to be great. (Just like there are here) But when you're just starting out playing music and jamming, you cannot call yourself an artist just because you contribute to it.

-Kevin

So I'll ask you again... what does a person have to accomplish in order to be labeled a real artist? In my eyes, I don't see any difference between a credible band like Led Zeppelin and the garage band who never did anything more than jam and perform at a few pubs and house parties. They can both be equally talented, have a loyal fanbase, and display a refreshing taste in creativity... but one's an artist, and the other's nothing? It's a simple question-- what does a person have to do to become an artist? Once that question's answered, maybe this thread will have some validity and substance to build from.

Steerpike said:
Do you want to express something other than a spectacle? Are you doing something other than masturbating?

Yes.

Here is how I perform. I approach every audience like they are blank canvases. I don't know their names; they don't know mine. Nobody knows what anyone does. Everything starts off new. The colorful reaction of this audience of strangers and the possible relationships built from my performance is the art I try to create. The series of effects I perform to create that reaction is not the art, itself-- they are the tools I use to make it.

I know a lot of magic. I perform a lot of magic. But it's honestly not my personal focus of attention. The audience is. In the magic community, I think that's what separates genuine artists from hacks and wannabes. People focus so much on what they're doing for themselves. Even when they perform for people, they just use the performance as a chance to showcase their new material and funny personality. Because of that, every performance ends up looking the same. I feel that artists in magic take a genuine interest in the audience, and custom-fits their act to develop dynamic reactions within it. No performance ever looks or feels exactly the same, because the audience is the focus of the art-- not the actual magic. Every performance is unique-- just like the paintings of a painter. This is what I try to do with every performance. That is what I consider art. That's why I do consider myself an artist.

My work has produced reactions of all spectrums: shock, awe, delight. It's created friendships. It's done things for the greater good, sometimes even raising money for awesome causes. These are the reactions that my magic inspired and created. I find art in all of that.

RS.




 
Jan 13, 2008
1,161
0
Does it matter?
Yes. If we're discussing something that we all define differently, that discussion cannot and will not go anywhere--that is why it's a requirement (note: It's not necessarily a rule, but it's pretty damn necessary if you expect your papers to get published) to define terms in a scientific paper, and that's why we should define it here. The discussion will be rendered meaningless because everything that people are saying is based on their own definition of art/an artist--how can the points that are brought up then be lumped together to define who can and cannot be an artist (which I believe was the original point of this thread--or at least one of the points), when we're not even discussing the same "artist" as each other?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
Here is how I perform. I approach every audience like they are blank canvases. I don't know their names; they don't know mine. Nobody knows what anyone does. Everything starts off new. The colorful reaction of this audience of strangers and the possible relationships built from my performance is the art I try to create. The series of effects I perform to create that reaction is not the art, itself-- they are the tools I use to make it.

You are an artist. If for no other reason than you recognize the difference between the medium and the expression. You have something to say. And that alone is more than I can say for many people here.


Yes. If we're discussing something that we all define differently, that discussion cannot and will not go anywhere

I doubt I'm so important that my definition of an artist is what will make or break this discussion. But I appreciate the sentiment.
 
Apr 27, 2008
1,820
2
Norway
Aehem.

When can you call yourself an artist? Is it when you sell your first painting? When you obtain a medal for your antics? Maybe it is when you are given a paid endorsment to perform, or perhaps do it out of free will, for the better of others?

I think not. Artistry, to me, is a state of mind. Let me elaborate on my further ramblings.

You may be secluded, hidden from society; an outcast, even. No one likes you, no one knows you, and no one cares about your measely existance. But every morning, when you wake up, only to find you are misunderstood, shunned or hated by civil society, you have a thought in your mind. Whenever you have an unoccupied moment in your busy life, or perhaps when you are unable to sleep during the night. When you think, to yourself, “What can I create today?” “How can I improve this and make it spectacular?” – That. That is what, to me, defines an artist.

When a thought or idea to finish/create/elaborate a creation of yours never leaves your mind, your thought process. Then you are an artist. You are an artist, when your creation is a motivating force for you, when it gives you, and perhaps others, something to think about.
Passion is art. Being passionate and creative is what, to me, defines an artist. You may not be famous, or renowned, you may not receive any physical compensation for your troubles. But when you complete something, something you created yourself, you are an artist.
I understand, most of the people here just linger around the forums, never quite too passionate about the art to let it live through them. But there are a few. A few who are passionate, as well as loving, towards their own creations, their own art. And these, are what we can call artists.
But does it matter? Does it matter whether or not someone sees you as an artist?

No.

Maybe you see me as an artist, you hold me praised so that I feel like I’m special. Or maybe you don’t. But because art is my own state of mind, I believe the idea of you being an artist is your own to bear, not someone else’s.

Art is a vent through which you express your emotions. An artist, he expresses his emotions. thereby, he who expresses his own emptions has the right to think of himself as an artist.

That is art, and that is artistry. A thought, a state of mind.

I hope I have made enough sense to provide you with an alternate point of view, one which I have yet to see in this disscussion. Please, feel free to take it apart or ask me to elaborate.

Gustav
 
Sep 1, 2007
125
0
Im kindof on both sides of the fence here.

I agree that being an artist is definitely a status you have to earn. Doing a few magic tricks doesn't automatically make you an artist like (someone said this and I liked it) picking up a violin and playing 5 notes doesn't make you a violinist. I will admit, I do not know myself when a person can be an artist but he sure isn't one if he knows two card tricks and just got interested in magic yesterday.

On the other hand, I believe we are fighting here for nothing. I need to ask "So what? If someone calls himself an artist, so what? No matter how you look at it, if you call yourself an artist or not, nothing will physically change, absolutely nothing. You will still be doing the same tricks you knew yesterday. So what if some call themselves artists and some do not.

Those who suck will continue to suck and get better and the awesome performers will still be awesome, regardless if they call themselves artists or not.

Thats just my view.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
Art is a vent through which you express your emotions. An artist, he expresses his emotions. thereby, he who expresses his own emptions has the right to think of himself as an artist.

And is this exclusive to emotions?

Because that would put us in an interesting position to judge certain other examples. Say for example the film of Ingmar Bergman, which together had a common thread of exploring the concept of the silence of God.

Or how about Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, which was a rather complex social and historical commentary?

What of the social commentary of Hotel California? Or Bob Marley's contemplation of the outlaw as hero?

On the other hand, I believe we are fighting here for nothing. I need to ask "So what? If someone calls himself an artist, so what? No matter how you look at it, if you call yourself an artist or not, nothing will physically change, absolutely nothing. You will still be doing the same tricks you knew yesterday. So what if some call themselves artists and some do not.

One can disdain an enemy that poses no direct threat, true. But ignorance can sometimes be trickier, and there's never any easy solution.
 
Apr 27, 2008
1,820
2
Norway
Perhaps emotion was not the best choice of diction. Say as if it is a vent through which you express yourself. Your ideals.

Gustav
 
Dec 23, 2008
35
0
Aehem.

Art is a vent through which you express your emotions. An artist, he expresses his emotions. thereby, he who expresses his own emptions has the right to think of himself as an artist.

I wouldn't think expression of self would be art by itself, however everything I would think to be art ends up being self expression.

"That is art, and that is artistry. A thought, a state of mind."

Everyone is an artist, everyone expresses themselves in some form, however not all artists practice the same art.

Art of war, art of cards, it's all the same self expression from the rocket designer, to the strategic planner, to the cardworker, to whomever.

Art is cruel...
 
Sep 2, 2007
55
0
Stockholm Sweden
Just for the record, I do not consider myslef to be and artist. I am mearly an enthusiastic hobbyist. I love magic as an art but i dont see myself as an artist.

The funny thing is how defensive people get when someone makes a thread like this. Why do people feel the need to defend themself. Its kinda like when you where in kindergarden. If some one said that you where in love with a particular girl and you where, you would say "NO IM NOT!!!".

Why is it important to have the title ARTIST.
Can´t you just love magic for what it is. Does have to define you?
If it does, you are really a sad person in my eyes, and I think that you ahve to stop doing magic and maybe evolve as a person. Get a personality of your own and dont just qoute stuff from Magic DVDs.

Finaly some one makes a great forum thread and all you can do is just whine about it. PROVE him wrong. Thats all he asks. And if you truly are an ARTIST that should not be a problem.

Great post Steerpike. Keep it up.
 
Apr 27, 2008
1,820
2
Norway
It's getting late up here in Oslo, so ill soon hit the sack -

I wouldn't think expression of self would be art by itself, however everything I would think to be art ends up being self expression.

"That is art, and that is artistry. A thought, a state of mind."

Everyone is an artist, everyone expresses themselves in some form, however not all artists practice the same art.

Art of war, art of cards, it's all the same self expression from the rocket designer, to the strategic planner, to the cardworker, to whomever.

Art is cruel...

I don't quite understand the stance you're taking here, but I'll go with a hunch and say that artistry is a state where the medium is varied, different. Yes, they are all different, from the card worker to the rocket scientist, and yet - they are the same.

They both had a passion, for the construction; of something lighter, faster and sleeker, the endless nights awake in thought of the creation of something spectacular.

The point I tried to convey in my previous post was that it is not the art, but the passion for the art, that defines the artist. It is a state of mind, to be called an artist.

Some may see you as one, some may not, but at the end of the day, it's you youraself that have to be satisfied with the title you yourself appointed yourself with.

I love magic as an art but i dont see myself as an artist.

Why is it important to have the title ARTIST.

Great post Steerpike. Keep it up.

Ah, here you go. You don't see yourself as an artist, yet I do. You love cardistry, you have a passion for it. In my mind, you are an artist.

I agree, There is no importance in being called an ARTIST. There shouldn't be any, because if you have stayed up at nights, if you have thought about creativity, and how you create, and have expressed something; Then you may know, yourself, that you are an artist. Your passion is what defines you.

That is all that matters. You, see yourself, as an artist.

Other opinions are respectively others'.


Gustav
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,249
3
Back in Time
Why should they prove anything to you? It's like not you're the authority on magic. If they want to be challenged then they will do that themselves. It's not up to one person to decide when it is right or wrong to cause everybody to think harder. If they enjoy things the way they are, then that's fine. Let them enjoy being hobbyist and having fun with magic. That's IS what magic is about. It's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun.

As for them being artist, it's not really up to one person to decide if they are or are not artist. Specially on an message board sense you do not know every bodies tastes or life style.
 
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