Why are we clones?

[toyrobot]

Very good points, and I do agree to a certain extent. Don't get me wrong, I like to use my own patter, but when I read or see some that I really like, every once in a while I'll take that basic idea and make it my own. Again, pretty much all of my effects are all me, but there are a few exceptions, and I'm ok with that... for now, at least.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with that. You know Urban Legend, by Michael Paul, released recently from Mental Playground? It's a razor blade swallowing routine, where you pull the razors out of an apple, and the scripting is about urban legends (specifically the one about razor blades in fruit and candy on Halloween). I got that trick just because of that presentation angle, I think it's the best thing ever as far as the razor blade swallowing act goes. I took the script and stripped it all away except for that part, and then re-built it from there.

People make cool stuff all the time, and there's nothing wrong with borrowing or imitating - as long as it goes somewhere, and you're not outright copycatting.

 

[CalvinTan]

I have to agree and say that one should not post a video if it's a direct copy of something already out there.

However!

I believe that copying is a necessary step in the learning process. This is the way I've been learning for years. I copy what I like, and then I change it to fit me. Isn't this how we all learn a new trick?

-Calvin

 

[William Draven]

This is what seperates those of us who will make money at this from those of us who won't. The professionals will force themselves to outgrow the need to imitate others styles or effects. I think it is just a natural process of growing as an artist.

We all have to learn somewhere. Just as a musician learns to play an instrament by playing music written by another artist, we learn the basics by performing others rutines.

Somewhere though a few of us desire more and push to move beyond that point. We develop individuality, and thus originality. The rest just stay stagnant where they are.

There is nothing wrong with that either, but if you really consider the number of known working professionals in the field to the number of people that have an interest or casual flirtation with performing.... you are almost looking at a 10 to 1 ratio.

I have noticed over the few days that everyone here seems to be the same. Black nail polish, Criss Angel want to be video editing tricks that can't be performed with me standing there live. XCM "flourish me this flourish me that." WHY do people want to imitate someone else? Is it because the person performing is "cool", or is it because it looks cool?

You know I have been looking through flourishing videos in the media section and came across a very fun video to watch. It was the one where he uses a knife, I know you know you have seen it or have seen it hinted on. Now I was enjoying the afterglow of this video but then was actually pretty upset to see a thread asking if there was a dvd or somewhere that taught how to do the manipulations.

I understand we as people are very curious but really, why do you want to learn something that someone is already using? Be the next best thing take a step up from conformity and show the non conformist that I know is inside of you all.

my original question still stays,

Why do people feel the need to imitate each other? I don't only mean tricks flourishing, but also appearance.

I am asking the entire forum these questions. Please reply with an answer. A good one, I am curious George and I want to know.

 

[JustATrick]

just go on youtube and type in wall walk, or self vanish, there are probably hundreds of videos of the same illusion with kids (10,11,12,13 yrs old , there nothing wrong with the age, its just it appeals to more younger kids because theyll see a video of sum1 their age doing it, or criss angel, and then attempt it, on video) it gets so old after a while, i see the exact same things online "My new season is starting up soon im gonna have - self vanish - person vanish -wall walk -walk on water - street magic live" man it gets annoying after a while

 

[Zeedub81]

just go on youtube and type in wall walk, or self vanish, there are probably hundreds of videos of the same illusion with kids (10,11,12,13 yrs old , there nothing wrong with the age, its just it appeals to more younger kids because theyll see a video of sum1 their age doing it, or criss angel, and then attempt it, on video) it gets so old after a while, i see the exact same things online "My new season is starting up soon im gonna have - self vanish - person vanish -wall walk -walk on water - street magic live" man it gets annoying after a while

Tell me about it. I'm so sick of these kids that claim to have "seasons" implying that they have a tv show. And they never perform for real people.

 

[The Tumbleweed]

My question is... why does it matter?

Sure people may have the same types of videos, but stick them all on the street and I guarantee you nobody will do the same presentation as another.
Why? Because it's impossible to be someone else, no matter how hard you try.

 

[dragon521]

If you can pull imitation off, (I mean being entertaining) I don't see a problem with it. Sure, you'll be looked down upon in the industry, but who gives a **** what magicians think of you. At the end of the day magic is about the relationship a performer builds with the spectator.

And Eugene, if you hate imitation so much, maybe you should stop with the kryptonites and l's...you know...Daren's combo...

 

[ThrallMind]

My question is... why does it matter?

If everyone is trying to be the same, from the specs point of view, there is no variability. They will all see the same thing, and eventually tire of it.

Sure people may have the same types of videos, but stick them all on the street and I guarantee you nobody will do the same presentation as another.
Why? Because it's impossible to be someone else, no matter how hard you try.

Heh. But, they can come so close one can't perceive a difference.

-ThrallMind

 

[nexusmagic]

If you can pull imitation off, (I mean being entertaining) I don't see a problem with it. Sure, you'll be looked down upon in the industry, but who gives a **** what magicians think of you. At the end of the day magic is about the relationship a performer builds with the spectator.

And Eugene, if you hate imitation so much, maybe you should stop with the kryptonites and l's...you know...Daren's combo

Okay you are missing the point of the thread this isn't meant for immature people to bash other people, that is not my intentions.
Also if a spectator has seen the same act over and over again then they will stop caring to watch and this art form will step into a novelty. Imitation is good but to an extent. I understand that people beginning in magic imitate others because they don't know better yet. However as they stick with it they will learn to be someone other than the one they worship and love.

Dragon if you like immitation why don't you try and immitate other magicians and see how far that will get you. You will come to a point where you want more and if that person you are trying to immitate doesn' do any more magic where will you go then? Anyway enough of my rant.


ALso if you do not like the nature of this thread, do not post something arrogant or immature.

 

[RikAllen]

Simple.

Everything we copy from artists today is the product of them copying from the magicians before them. They eventually came into their own and created original magic. I can't create something new and original if I don't have a firm grasp on what's been done before me.

With that said, a lot of people don't push the boundaries. Enough that it could be called a problem. People practice practice practice to perfect something that isn't theirs but don't put an hour a day aside to think of something creative and new.

Given that, everything springs from what they learned already. Some people don't have enough experience. Others are content with other peoples tricks and their patter.
Nothing wrong with that.

At the same time, using a premise that already exists in magic-like a two card transposition-even if they sleights are all your own and the effect is revolutionary. It's just another transpo effect...isn't it?


-Rik

 

[EugeneSoh]

And Eugene, if you hate imitation so much, maybe you should stop with the kryptonites and l's...you know...Daren's combo...

cloning/imitation doesn't mean using someone's moves. It's completely taking their style in every aspect. using ONLY their moves, patter, whatever.
Atleast I create. and you've seen it before.
back your bull**** up.
then we'll talk.

call me a "daren clone" if you want, but telling me i reflect daren in every aspect is a lie.

 

[William Draven]

Eugene: Don't feed the trolls. I don't want this turning into a flame war. If you have to defend yourself do it in private please.

cloning/imitation doesn't mean using someone's moves. It's completely taking their style in every aspect. using ONLY their moves, patter, whatever.
Atleast I create. and you've seen it before.
back your bull**** up.
then we'll talk.

call me a "daren clone" if you want, but telling me i reflect daren in every aspect is a lie.

 

[dragon521]

cloning/imitation doesn't mean using someone's moves. It's completely taking their style in every aspect. using ONLY their moves, patter, whatever.
Atleast I create. and you've seen it before.
back your bull**** up.
then we'll talk.

call me a "daren clone" if you want, but telling me i reflect daren in every aspect is a lie.

Besides the DM clones you find here, who really copies someone's style in every aspect? There is a different between cloning and imitating. Cloning is what you're talking about. Immitating is just taking something from someone else. So don't say you hate imitation, because you and I and everyone else imitates.

 

[dragon521]

You will come to a point where you want more and if that person you are trying to immitate doesn' do any more magic where will you go then?

I'll look for what I want. Since when has the magic industry become so nazi as to tell others who they can be like, who they can't, how long they should practice, what kind of people to perform to and all the other things I see people saying. Why can't magicians do what they like? Hell, I think we've all started magic by immitating someone. All I'm saying is that people should do what they want. If they can do what they want well, then that's even better. But to try and stop a kid from immitating his hero is ludicrous IMO.

 

[nexusmagic]

Dragon you are acting extremely arrogant, this thread isn't about the issue of doing something because we say you do. No one person can be controlled. and to suggest that we've all started magic imitating someone else is ludicrous IMO.
I had no influence of other magicians for 11 years and it has worked out perfectly fine for me. The point of this thread is to help others who want to take the next step away from being someone they are not.

So get over whatever the heck is wrong with you and grow the hell up.

But to try and stop a kid from imitating his hero is ludicrous IMO.

SO since you are referring to magicians as hero that allows me to say this.

If you saw a child trying to leap from building to building without any aid of support acting like spiderman, that I shouldn't stop them. If I see a magician who is trying to be someone they are not, I will stop them and try to help them before it becomes a problem.

 

[Steerpike]

I had no influence of other magicians for 15 years and it has worked out perfectly fine for me.

I didn't want to comment on this thread, but this just stood out to me. Human beings learn through mimicry and imitation. That's the way we are wired. To claim that you have never once in your life mimicked a master in order to learn is either a lie or a grand self-deception.

If you saw a child trying to leap from building to building without any aid of support acting like spiderman, that I shouldn't stop them.

Now try an analogy that works.

 

[romeo sierra]

I have to admit I could only stomach the first few pages of this thread. After which, I found myself extremely frustrated with what I was reading. Imitation is the best form of flattery? Imitation is a part of the learning process?

In my opinion, these are nothing more than cheap excuses to not putting in the effort to being original. Come on.

This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread of this forum. I apologize for the broad generalization, but I do feel the internet has spawned more cop-out hacks than it has legitimate practicioners of magic. It seems like everyone is just settling with what they see. I guess that comes with the territory of a visual medium like videos and the internet. When people see something flashy, their attention is drawn to it. It's easy to cop out and assume the way Daniel Madison vanishes a deck is as good as it's is going to get. There's no need to change it, because if it's not broken-- why fix it, right? This is a genuine problem, because copycats are only mere shadows who do subpar renditions of what they see. The more copycats there are, the more bad magic there'll be. It matters, because it's ridiculing and belittling the craft that some take more seriously to try to preserve. That's the truth.

I agree that it's easy to be impressionable when learning a new effect. But to steal someone's entire presentation and not do anything to make the technique and method your own means you have nothing to add to it. How can that possibly be? I find it very, very hard to believe that as young individuals with 13+ years of experience just living, that some of you cannot make a presentation fit who you are. Not to sound self-glorifying, but I find it hard to believe, because I was doing it at ten. Actually, I know other kids younger than that who can make magic more applicable to their own lives. Granted, it's rudimentary and laughable material, but you'd be surprised to see how much more developed an 8-year-old is with a simple Svengali Coloring Book than some 20-year-olds are with the most advanced card magic in the world!

Originality is a fundamental. It's not a mature lesson that you have to grow up to understand. I find it taught in some of the most elementary of books with lots of pictures for everyone to comprehend. Tips on presentation are usually scattered throughout write-ups in elementary books like the Tarbell Course, Mark Wilson's book, the Bill Severn volumes. I'll admit it may be a difficult lesson to learn off a page, but it's better than being brainwashed into copying whatever you see on a screen.

I will always be an advocate of learning magic the old-fashioned way. I was extremely fortunate to have done so. Read books. Meet people. Only use visual aids like DVDs as supplementary sources. We've become so dependent on the internet and the videos we see that the blind are leading the blind now. I have to agree with Draven above-- this issue really does separate the legitimate performers from the annoying Uncle Bobs.

...I just couldn't believe what I was reading. I'm sorry. Copying one's work just isn't good in my book.



RS.

 

[romeo sierra]

I didn't want to comment on this thread, but this just stood out to me. Human beings learn through mimicry and imitation. That's the way we are wired. To claim that you have never once in your life mimicked a master in order to learn is either a lie or a grand self-deception.

Not entirely true.

Yes, we learn through mimicking what we see and re-living what we experience. But because of that, in my opinion, creating an original presentation should seem more achievable than it's currently being demonstrated. By mimmicking what we know, sharing the experiences we lived, it should be "easy" to redirect that knowledge into the magic we do to create something more authentic and original.

Mimmicking a master in order to learn is one thing. But some of these people are essentially just straight-up stealing others' work and presenting them as final pieces in internet videos. And then OTHERS copy that! And then the snowball occurs. In my opinion, if a lot of personal, individual thought hasn't been put into reworking an effect in some way, it probably shouldn't be performed in the first pace.

RS.

 

[UnholyGodn]

Anyone making such a big deal out of THERE BEING CLONES EVERYWHERE, are about as bad as people crying over tricks being revealed on YouTube. If clones annoy you so much, stop watching their videos or whatever the hell, simple as that.

This thread seems to be constantly changing it's mind about what it's debating, I can't even tell if we're arguing against cloning or copying at all anymore.

If originality is so important to you, go be original and stop watching other people. Does someone being a "cheap hack" magician really effect you whatsoever? No.

We should make a thread about why the hell magicians seem to make mountains out of molehills over EVERYTHING.

 

[praetoritevong]

I am just curious if this response reflects some of your traits?

I would like to think not, but I myself am curious why you'd suggest such a thing? Have you seen me perform, or do you know me to know my traits? Seems like something of an unprovoked suggestive attack on me here.

But seriously... What? I don't even know where that came from, let alone why you're taking a swipe at me with absurd and ridiculous lines. Essentially you're insulting me (though no offense was taken) for no reason, with no basis.

Or if you just figure that is the right answer and what I want to here?

Believe me, I have much better things to do than speak pretty words for your pleasure. Again, I'm curious why you think that I simply said what you wanted to hear.

I know how to be different but I truly feel many of you do not, and I am trying to help this community.

Congratulations. Again I ask what basis, what license or insight you have into me that allows you to question my motives, actions or traits. Who are you to suggest what my traits might be, or criticise me for conformity? I am open to improvement but your post genuinely lacks any semblance of helpfulness, advice, or experience. I'm rather disappointed in the post given the promise of this thread. If you believe I have been unhelpful, I would love to hear why. If you feel that I personally do not know how to be different... Well I would invite you to get to know me before uselessly throwing accusations at me. No offense has been taken but I am happy to be harsh and say that that seems to be a confused, unnecessary, unprovoked and generally useless post loaded with assertions and backed up with crap.

Overall I'm just pretty confused, really. It didn't make much sense to me. I appreciate the argument of the thread, but your post didn't really contain anything remotely substantial barring what could be construed as a personal attack with no basis.