Why are we clones?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by nexusmagic, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. Because pretty much every debate or issue can be summed up with, "Some people think one way, others think a different way." If we just ignored things and never talked about issues, positive or negative, then nothing would advance and we'd all be incredibly boring to talk to. Yes, we can just stop watching or stop looking at said magicians. But it's an interesting point to talk about (well sort of), and a lot of people find intelligent debate fun.

    In any kind of debate thread, there's always the one guy who comes in and tries to get people to stop debating for some reason, as if he's trembling behind the wooden bars at the top of the staircase listening to mommy and daddy scream in the kitchen. "Guys, some people think THIS, and some think THIS! This isn't solving anything, let's just go our own separate ways!" We're not fighting, we're having a discussion about something. Discussion and debate displays everyone's opinions and gives life to the community.

    Yes, actually. See, I like to share myself with the community, and I like to have the community share back. It's exciting and inspiring for me to come and see different people from different regions and cultures, with different philosophies for magic, to say what they think and perform how they perform. It gives me a new outlook and stops things from becoming stale. You can't just "go be original". You have to have ideas, and other people often help shape them (at least they do for me). Even when you develop your own style, you're still being constantly influenced by all the cool things you see.

    So, if I come on and everyone's performing the same way, doing the same card tricks, with the same lifeless patter, it affects me as a magician. It affects me very much.
     
  2. Just to clarify, I am on your side. I just find it disingenuous for people to claim that they've never been influenced by another human being. Unless you were raised by wolves, it's not possible.
     
  3. #43 EugeneSoh, Jan 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2009
    basically you're calling the virts, adam, steve, jonas, and all of those other hotshots imitations

    i can show you some video's ive seen that copy daniel madison, but ill get banned for it.

    no, it's duplicating it. like... literally. the moves, style, and whatever there is to imitate.

    it's more than just taking peoples moves. something you'll never understand.

    as i said before... back your bull**** up...
    then come talk to me
     
  4. There is a difference between discussion and what is occuring here, if you need to resort to censorship, theres obviously a mood beyond a helpful discussion.
     
  5. Okay I have gine off on a tangent a bit but here is my original post,
    also eugene dragon stop attacking each other if you are both on bad terms settle it over PM.
     
  6. Mordecai here again. Urm, so yeah this thread...no longer applies to just xcm but a new hit trendy genre of the world of Magic. Mentalism err not mentalism but the masterful art of psychology and NLP!

    You know the last time I checked mentalism was the closest thing to real magic around. So, why the shift to mental magic, psychology, NLP? I am certain I have one of the keys to this question, that key is Derren Brown and his success. I am not knocking mentalists or magicians who perform mental magic, but I certainly feel that this new "It's psychology!" approach is a wee weak. What happened to mystery performers?
     
  7. It's pretty simple. When learning something new people have to mimic someone else as they learn. However, many people only start magic and don't pursue it for all that long, so they never make it beyond the mimesis. Those that do make it beyond that point have enough time to develop their own styles (though not all of them do) and move away from imitating the people that inspired them.
     
  8. When you are a music student, you first learn to play music by learning the scales. That gives you a working foundation to which upon you will build the rest of your music theory. After you've mastered the scales you begin to learn chords, and which chords sounds good when put together. Then you begin to use those notes, and chords to play basic tunes. As your foundation in music expands and your knowledge increases you slowly expand your repertoire to include more complex music. Soon enough you're able to read sheet music and play Mozart at your recital. Finally, as your mastery over your instrument is complete you begin to branch out and let your creativity take over, and you find yourself composing your own songs.

    Where am I going with this you ask? Well in a way I've answered your question George. You see, like in music, in magic we must first learn to replicate the movements, and patter to our effects. We don't become our own unique voice in magic off the go. That kind of character development can take months, or even years. While we are still fledgling neophytes we learn by imitating others. Through the repetition of doing our lessons become more clear. We learn what works, what doesn't, how to control an audience, misdirection, and other important skills. Once our basic skill set is cemented into a strong foundation only then are we prepared to make that next leap into our magic evolution, but not everyone will make that jump. The gap between arm chair amateur and seasoned veteran is a scary one.

    It's here at this cross roads where one must evaluate their progress and decide for themselves if the pursuit of magic is worth the time and dedication to make that leap, and it's one that will require a lot of both. For those choosing to remain in the shady cloister mewed, a barren sister to magic all their life, the development of character and unique performance style isn't as critical. They're know that they'll only perform for friends or family. Maybe they'll take a birthday party gig once or twice, but they're happiness comes from buying the next best thing, and staying involved in the local magic club, or online magic community. But happy are also the few who chose to carry the child of inspiration for the full term and give birth to a new life in magic. Like the Phoenix, the old magician self dies, only to give birth to the new ego. For these people, the hobbyist life of the magic collector isn't good enough. They possess a drive that will only accept working full time as an entertainer as their main source of income. The new ego created is the child of inspiration and imagination, the parents of creativity. This new self will not settle for merely presenting effects as seen on TV or as they come fresh out of the box. This new self will seek to find its own voice, and then yell it from the mountain tops as loud as it can so the entire world will hear. It is here where one sees to become unique to their own performance style, develop further ones character, and truly become a single individual in the sea of chaos that makes up our magic community as a whole.

    My dear George, you see Theory11 forums is like the High School of magicians. Here we have people who are on all levels of the art. The casual students who attend classes only because they must. The dedicated pupil who is studying hard for a life after graduation into the art, blissfully unaware of the dangers still awaiting them in the real world of show business, the professors (such as Wayne Houchin, Danial Garcia, and other Theory11 artists) who are here to teach those who will listen, and the alumni, the veteran performers who have learned their lessons, but don't mind returning for a few pick up classes. On this playground you're going to find performers on all levels, so it's not surprising that you see a lot of people mirroring the styles and effects of those precious few whose stars are burning brightly lighting the way for everyone else. However, I wouldn't pay too close attention to them. They are still learning. Some will make that leap, others will remain happy with where they are. The only question that should be asked, and is important enough to answer is: When that time comes for you to make that choice, to chose to leap boldly into becoming your own self, or to remain safely tucked away within the comforts of amateurism what will you chose to do? What path is best for you to walk? There really isn't a right or wrong answer to this question, but the answer you give, will affect the way you present your magic.

    Curious monkey, did you find what you were looking for on your adventure?
     
  9. Draven, I don't like your analogy about music. Just saying. I've jammed with many musicians that don't know a single bit of theory. Some of them don't know scales, chords, time signatures, modes, or even pitch names. They have a system in their mind about how music works, and that system completely differs to what is taught as standard theory.

    Music is somewhat innate. Theatre is not.

    Not really sure what the intent of this thread was, but I'll throw in my AUD$0.02, whatever that's worth nowadays.

    What a magician really is, "An actor playing a part of a musician", should be emphasized. Theatre should be taught. Magicians should understand that magic is a performance art, and should understand that the performance aspect is as important, if not more, than the tricks themselves. The magicians who stand out the most are the ones who have a developed character. One of the best examples is Cardini, because he wasn't just about tricks. He was about performance. He was about theatre. He was about magic.

    Theatrical theory should be emphasized, because that's all we are. Actors.

    (Cardists/Flourishers/XCMers, disregard all this.)
     
  10. I agree with you 100% that theater should be a primary concern for magicians, however, you haven't addressed the point of the thread, which is "Why do so many magicians copy each other?"
     
  11. It's not an issue unique to magicians. Actors/singers/dancers also completely rip off other people in their field.

    It's part of human nature to do so.
     
  12. Yeah you are right, it is natural for humans to feel jealousy, be sleaze balls and steal others heart and soul. I mean isn't that one reason why you'd steal someone's act in the first place? Also not saying you said this yet, but before you do say it, imitation is flattering to a point. I am certain that Rudy Coby is very flattered that a guy in Portugal stole his entire act and does it badly. Oh he is so flattered that he is actually learning how to speak Portuguese to thank the guy with a shot gun. ^^


    Theater is innate, I've seen common student body, people off the street, come to an audition and blow professional actors out of the water. There are such things as natural born actors, just like there are natural musicians. Plus, everyone is saying magic is an art, all artistic disciplines share similar traits and some traits are uniquely their own. I completely believe that some people are born with certain talents in the arts and pick them up quickly. That is not to say that others can't learn and master the arts, it just takes them more time. Hell, those who struggle exceed the ones who find things easy. Why? Because those who have to actually dedicate themselves to the discipline have a stronger foundation then the ones who just go and do their own thing.


    The intent of the thread is written right in the title.

    Yeah and he was also from the time where everything was apparently black and white. (JOKE) Time changes, people change. Some, magicians do not need a theater background or not even any classes for that matter. "Magicians are just actors playing a magician." Is the cope out answer that I've seen several times in this thread and it really is starting to get annoying. Some things just don't apply to magic anymore. We are magicians first, actors second not the other way around. It is our job as magicians to perform magic, we have to supplement that with acting and other forms of entertainment, comedy, music, etc. to make it convincing. We are not an actor trying to portray the acts of what a magician is supposed to look like, we are magicians showing off our power not some "mortal" using trickery to imitate what we do.

    WOOAH, why should flourishers disregard an emphasis of theater? Hell, if flourishers actually studied theater and then applied it to their movements and flourishing, I'd be more inclined to call them artists.


    Nice points and I agree with them. But you know what I find funny? In stage performing, the successful ones (Not saying famous like CA or DC, but ones who get consistent gigs) always have the same illusions in their act. I find it funny that the DC clones get enough to get by while the originals float err kind of float at the top.

    This entire post is enlightening and thought provoking. Thanks for it Draven!
     
  13. I think it is basically a part of our path to learning how to be ourselves and, in this case, great magicians (at the same time). You learn to read by repeating someone else. You develop your personality copying bits of the personality of people you admire,etc...

    The problem is, people stay in this stage of the learning process, and never progress... In my opinion.

    Mugicano.
     
  14. I'll concede this point just because this isn't an appropriate forum to discuss this matter.

    What do you mean by "We are magicians first, actors second?". Is there no difference between a "magician" and a "person doing magic tricks?"

    For the purpose of this discussion. I believe performance as a flourisher is a completely different field to performance as a magician, and deserves it's own discussion.
     
  15. Monkey see monkey do... I heard something about that is how humans learn by watching others when they are young... maybe that it why we do that? Eitherway I have been working on uniqueness for a WHILE. My family and friends have always said "your very unique" so maybe i will be successful in the area some day. But i will say its human nature always also.
     
  16. This place is as good as ever. Explain your point, theater is part of magic thus is very appropriate to discuss.



    I explained what I meant in a paragraph. There is definitely a separation between a guy who just does magic and a magician. What's the difference between a guy doing a quick card trick at a bar for his friends and a professional magician performing a set of magic at the bar?




    Can hardly wait to see that discussion start.
     
  17. It's not an appropriate place to discuss the innate understanding of music opposed to the innate understanding of performance.

    For friends. Performance for friends is hardly performance. When one sees a movie, for example, Leonardo di Caprio in "Inception", you don't see him as di Caprio playing a part, you see Dom Cobb. You can't do that for people that you know, like friends or family, especially in a close up setting. They know you. I'd imagine that when di Caprio's friends in family see him on screen, they don't see Dom Cobb, they see Leonardo di Caprio putting on a character.

    That's why performance for friends/family is different. They know how you talk, they are somewhat familiar with your gestures and body language and when you put on a magical persona, they don't see a magician, they see you doing magic tricks. If you do it for people you don't know, they don't see you putting on the persona of a magician, they see a magician.

    That's the difference.

    People go to magic shows to see magicians doing magical things. Not ordinary humans doing sleight of hand. Bear in mind that suspension of disbelief is a big part of it.

    Me either.
     
  18. "Is there no difference between a "magician" and a "person doing magic tricks?"

    Now I think you are getting your points crossed. There is a difference between the guy who is the life of the party and the magician.

    Anyway, that is the subject I was trying to discuss. What I was really trying to discuss is why people seem to migrate toward one way of performance style. Like why cardicians are now expert cheats and mentalists are now some master of psychology. Why are people moving toward something that can be rationalized by their audience, then remain a mystery? Is being a magician with "Real" magic powers not "hip" anymore? Or is it a convenient excuse that covers up a bad or unconvincing trick or even a bad magician's performances?
     
  19. Well and Dan Sperry, but he is just awesome! haha, and well lets see this is what i wear when i peform for an actual event.

    Black Skinnies
    Black Dress Shirt
    Black Vest
    Red Tie
    and Black Eyeliner

    You might think "Oh eyeliner! He is a Goth magician!" But in all reality im not, but thats my performance outfit, look at Bizzaro, he puts on a little bit of make-up for his shows but he doesnt wear eyeliner all day... Its just what you are performing in. Now im not Football Player by day, then eyeliner black nail polish wearer by night, I hang out with the gothish and skater people. So its not a total change for me.. But i dont go all out every day like Marilyn Manson..
     
  20. I really, REALLY resent the fact that people associate the goth sub-culture with a person just because they are wearing a little eye liner, and perhaps have painted fingernails. There's a lot more to being goth than just black eye liner. Talk about stereotyping.
     

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