Unnecessary Patter = Useless & Irrelevant?
- Thread starter BrianationX
- Start date
Sorry if this has been said before but, it is Derren Brown, not Darren. Also, he does do some magic, so yes, he is a bit of a magician, and he does use patter. Check out this video of him: http://youtube.com/watch?v=PvwlIGpFKuA
A card trick and a movie can't be compared at all, people get entertained by all special effects and music in movies , but people get bored by useless taking done before a trick
I'm sorry, I disagree. Magic is entertainment. Movies are often called the "magical screen". There have been silent movies, in fact, there are times when the movies have no dialog or score and it's still interesting. And there have been movies in which there is no special effect or music and the dialog is riveting.
And in magic you are telling a story. This ace was here, now it's here. That's a story. A simplistic one, but a story none the less.
Even in the article I mentioned previously, Teller says that you are putting out the story. His direct quote is "Let's see if you can just, very nakedly, put the story out there."
Therefore, I think the movie reference is valid. But here's the thing: you are performer AND the director. You determine whether patter is needed here, what kind of patter and what story you are trying to relate depending on the audience you are trying to reach.
Brian,
Look I undersand what you are saying however I urge you to think before you speak. You act as if we are all idiots and you are the only smart one on these forums. There are probably dozens of people better than you here, and they all think carefully about what to say before they say it. Please, start using your mind, that's why it is there.
But on to the question at hand. I do NOT believe that patter is mouth garbage. If you think about it patter can make someone understandbetter what just happened. Now, if you over use patter then it becomes useless. Especially if it is filled with "ums...ahs....uh....and hmmms". But I highly disagree. A story to go alo0ng with the triumph trick is great as well as some humor. Humor adds a bit of comic relief and provides a small amount of misdirection. I feel that patter is simply wonderful and enhances the trick 10 fold.
Besides, all of your videos are for a camera and you do not perorm in front of a live audiance. So here is what you can do. Get a buddy to film you. Go up to people and ask to show them a trick. then do NOT say ANYTHING during the trickand see the reactions you get. Then film the same thing but on a different group of people and DO USE PATTER. and then see those reactions and post the videos on Youtube for us to see.
Dylan P.
Look I undersand what you are saying however I urge you to think before you speak. You act as if we are all idiots and you are the only smart one on these forums. There are probably dozens of people better than you here, and they all think carefully about what to say before they say it. Please, start using your mind, that's why it is there.
But on to the question at hand. I do NOT believe that patter is mouth garbage. If you think about it patter can make someone understandbetter what just happened. Now, if you over use patter then it becomes useless. Especially if it is filled with "ums...ahs....uh....and hmmms". But I highly disagree. A story to go alo0ng with the triumph trick is great as well as some humor. Humor adds a bit of comic relief and provides a small amount of misdirection. I feel that patter is simply wonderful and enhances the trick 10 fold.
Besides, all of your videos are for a camera and you do not perorm in front of a live audiance. So here is what you can do. Get a buddy to film you. Go up to people and ask to show them a trick. then do NOT say ANYTHING during the trickand see the reactions you get. Then film the same thing but on a different group of people and DO USE PATTER. and then see those reactions and post the videos on Youtube for us to see.
Dylan P.
Like all of your posts, this is opinion. And seeing as how I would rather put stock into Enron than into your opinion, I'd say it's safe to ignore this. Things will come up in life that you find annoying. That's life, deal with it.
Refer to my response above.
-ThrallMind
Of course you can compare two different types of performance art. It's done every day. Your wrongness has blinded you and forced you into a position of defensiveness.
Let's use your analogy inside of my analogy: Special effects are like magic tricks in movies.
Ok, then. Would you watch an hour and a half of just special effects reel? No story, no characters, just car chases, explosions, monsters, and giant transforming robots?
Maybe some people would. I have to admit, Michael Bay sells a lot of tickets and his movies aren't much more than that. But they aren't very good art most of the time.
I don't really picture Transformers or Con Air being added to the AFI's 100 anytime in the next thousand years.
I think what's most offensive is your asinine lumping of "story" in with "mouthgarbage". It shows a low level of exploration of the art on your part, and an overreaction to an aspect of the craft you personally dislike.
Ricky Jay can hardly be described as an "old school magician". Although he may appear advanced in age to you he has taken a very unorthodox approach to magic his entire life.
His "Royal Coterie" queen assembly has an absolutely ridiculous motivation (treating face cards as if they truly were royalty) and uses an astounding amount of what you would immaturely call "mouthgarbage". It is a masterpiece.
Mr. Jay also performs a "poker deal" with no patter whatsoever. Somehow, he makes this hilarious. It is one of the funniest things I've seen him do. It is also a masterpiece.
These decisions are ultimately up to the performer/artist. They should be made carefully based upon what the artist hopes to communicate. It seems as though you have made the decision that point of your magic is to astound - a live special effect - and astound only. That's a terrific goal for your magic. However IT IS NOT THE ONLY VALID GOAL. If an artist wants to make social commentary, augment another type of performance, comment on the performance venue, etc. then he or she may take a very different approach to reaching that goal. Choosing to use a story, patter, or premise you don't enjoy does not make what they are doing MOUTHGARBAGE. To use that phrase in relation to examples like Bill Malone is disrespectful. This will only get you disrespect. You will continue to be a joke on this board.
I'm not saying you can't be controversial. Controversy is good. Dumbassery is not.
I am glad you have found a performing style that works for you right now. What you remain ignorant of is that if you continue growing as an artist you will have a very different performing style later and you will feel foolish for being so dogmatic when you were younger (and rightfully so).
In the meanwhile, have a great time during your "reductionist" or "minimalist" period.
Let's use your analogy inside of my analogy: Special effects are like magic tricks in movies.
Ok, then. Would you watch an hour and a half of just special effects reel? No story, no characters, just car chases, explosions, monsters, and giant transforming robots?
Maybe some people would. I have to admit, Michael Bay sells a lot of tickets and his movies aren't much more than that. But they aren't very good art most of the time.
I don't really picture Transformers or Con Air being added to the AFI's 100 anytime in the next thousand years.
I think what's most offensive is your asinine lumping of "story" in with "mouthgarbage". It shows a low level of exploration of the art on your part, and an overreaction to an aspect of the craft you personally dislike.
Ricky Jay can hardly be described as an "old school magician". Although he may appear advanced in age to you he has taken a very unorthodox approach to magic his entire life.
His "Royal Coterie" queen assembly has an absolutely ridiculous motivation (treating face cards as if they truly were royalty) and uses an astounding amount of what you would immaturely call "mouthgarbage". It is a masterpiece.
Mr. Jay also performs a "poker deal" with no patter whatsoever. Somehow, he makes this hilarious. It is one of the funniest things I've seen him do. It is also a masterpiece.
These decisions are ultimately up to the performer/artist. They should be made carefully based upon what the artist hopes to communicate. It seems as though you have made the decision that point of your magic is to astound - a live special effect - and astound only. That's a terrific goal for your magic. However IT IS NOT THE ONLY VALID GOAL. If an artist wants to make social commentary, augment another type of performance, comment on the performance venue, etc. then he or she may take a very different approach to reaching that goal. Choosing to use a story, patter, or premise you don't enjoy does not make what they are doing MOUTHGARBAGE. To use that phrase in relation to examples like Bill Malone is disrespectful. This will only get you disrespect. You will continue to be a joke on this board.
I'm not saying you can't be controversial. Controversy is good. Dumbassery is not.
I am glad you have found a performing style that works for you right now. What you remain ignorant of is that if you continue growing as an artist you will have a very different performing style later and you will feel foolish for being so dogmatic when you were younger (and rightfully so).
In the meanwhile, have a great time during your "reductionist" or "minimalist" period.
your still a kid arent you.
id say 18 or 19.
alright.From the top.
what you mean is saying things like "the card magically..." or "eVery card has a button" is disrespectful to audiences(teens and adults).
makes things feel childish.
But when doing magic for unsespecting people,(and sometimes people that know you.)
they expect more.
They want something deep, personal.an amazing magical experience.
When magic is being just tossed around trick after trick.Its just a show.not art.
It feels empty.
As the performer you should have to make them think,make them wonder.
Give them enough reason to doubt it.
And if a person like brian tudor would do magic to somebody.they wouldnt see magic.They would just see eye candy.A show.not an experience.
It even LOOKS like sleight of hand.And it shouldnt.
Its like watching a new box office smash kind of film.Special effects and explosions.but no soul.no life in the presentation.
and withing the month,they forget about it.they wont even remember the name.
But if it has all the right ingredients.
(patter included)
Everyone will remember it.It stays with you.
(reservoir dogs,pulp fiction,amores perros,citizen kane,)
hope that clears things up.
and if your mind still hasnt changed.
there is nothing i can do for you.nothing more to say.
Last edited by a moderator:
No. Patter is extremely important to magic when used correctly.
I will agree that usually it isn't. Snapping fingers and "watch this card" isn't what I deem valuable. However, a story as you perform, a meaning, a parallel to maximize the impact of your magic is invaluable.
Case closed.
I will agree that usually it isn't. Snapping fingers and "watch this card" isn't what I deem valuable. However, a story as you perform, a meaning, a parallel to maximize the impact of your magic is invaluable.
Case closed.
Before Brown was a mentalist, he was a very good magician. Even with cards. If you ever get the chance, check his older stuff out. Smoke, for one, is amazing.
-ThrallMind
But unfortunately he speaks quite a lot during the effect so BrianationX would probably hate it.
I'd still like to see some of bRiaN's videos, showcasing the expert skill he keeps telling everyone he has. I'd like to see the aMazINg ReaCTionS he keeps telling everyone he gets.
And then I'd love him to grow up a little and appreciate that just because he loves Brian Tudor and hates MouthGarbage, doesn't mean that he's right in his belief that his 'Modern Way Of Thinking' is either relevant, original, or necessary.
And for the love of God stop typing MouthGarbage...and stop putting it in bold.
There are guys on here and other places that are 15yrs old and show more sense and maturity than you have in any post you've made....
Jesus...19 and knows everything...I'm sure someone's written a book about that by now.
Rabid
Unnecessary Patter= Useless And Irrelevant?
Not at all.
Unnecessary Patter= Enjoyable And easy to remember
It gives your magic a personality. Sure it sometimes doesn't make sense.
Like you are using my "Every card has a button example" a lot. But I'd suggest you read the whole thing again. It's meant as a tongue in cheek thing. Sure it's mostly load of crap, but I at least get some smiles when performing.
If you just show tricks after tricks, you stay at that. Performing tricks. Not magic.
If I met a magician I'd want someone that would communicate with me, show me some magic and give me something I could remember for ever. Not just all seriously showing me a trick and let me screaming afterwards. That would make him feel good, but for me, the other option is more enjoyable.
And that what magic is. Something good you give to people and hopefully make someone's day (That someone having a dog killed by a truck for example).
That's mine opinion of course. What suits you doesn't suit me.
-Seb
Not at all.
Unnecessary Patter= Enjoyable And easy to remember
It gives your magic a personality. Sure it sometimes doesn't make sense.
Like you are using my "Every card has a button example" a lot. But I'd suggest you read the whole thing again. It's meant as a tongue in cheek thing. Sure it's mostly load of crap, but I at least get some smiles when performing.
If you just show tricks after tricks, you stay at that. Performing tricks. Not magic.
If I met a magician I'd want someone that would communicate with me, show me some magic and give me something I could remember for ever. Not just all seriously showing me a trick and let me screaming afterwards. That would make him feel good, but for me, the other option is more enjoyable.
And that what magic is. Something good you give to people and hopefully make someone's day (That someone having a dog killed by a truck for example).
That's mine opinion of course. What suits you doesn't suit me.
-Seb
You know....
techincally....
No patter, when done right IS patter.
Because you have to communicate something. If you do an effect and don't communicate a story, be it with verbal communication or body language communication, you are not doing the effect nor the audience justice.
The point is communication is nessacary when doing any effect.
If you don't say a word, and just do a "trick", without communicating or connecting to your audience , isn't that "Body Garbage"?
techincally....
No patter, when done right IS patter.
Because you have to communicate something. If you do an effect and don't communicate a story, be it with verbal communication or body language communication, you are not doing the effect nor the audience justice.
The point is communication is nessacary when doing any effect.
If you don't say a word, and just do a "trick", without communicating or connecting to your audience , isn't that "Body Garbage"?
http://youtube.com/user/brianationx
You can all now be the judge. Of course, all the videos are done to a video camera, and not a real audience.
-ThrallMind
I've seen plenty of magicians perform with little to no patter who were simply awful to watch.
They rock back and forth, hunched over their props like The Card-Keeper. Their hands were tense and shaky, and they lacked any smooth transitions from moment to moment. This was not an isolated incident; unfortunately, this has been the majority of my experiences at conventions. What's more, watching these folks, I found that there was little else to pay attention to BUT their hands.
That's simply wrong. Scripting allows for natural attention direction, where a lack of scripting invites people to just burn your hands. This, in turn, suggests that since they're watching your hands, they're watching for something.
And even if they don't see that "something," they know it was there. In that moment, the magic is lost.
I think you can make the choice not to script at all if your main audience consists of the bleary-eyed teenagers patrolling youtube and the media section here through all hours of the night. But get out into the real world and you need more.
People don't want to watch sleights they can't see, they want to be entertained. I speak from many years of experience as both and amateur and a professional magician.
Random thoughts.
Pj
They rock back and forth, hunched over their props like The Card-Keeper. Their hands were tense and shaky, and they lacked any smooth transitions from moment to moment. This was not an isolated incident; unfortunately, this has been the majority of my experiences at conventions. What's more, watching these folks, I found that there was little else to pay attention to BUT their hands.
That's simply wrong. Scripting allows for natural attention direction, where a lack of scripting invites people to just burn your hands. This, in turn, suggests that since they're watching your hands, they're watching for something.
And even if they don't see that "something," they know it was there. In that moment, the magic is lost.
I think you can make the choice not to script at all if your main audience consists of the bleary-eyed teenagers patrolling youtube and the media section here through all hours of the night. But get out into the real world and you need more.
People don't want to watch sleights they can't see, they want to be entertained. I speak from many years of experience as both and amateur and a professional magician.
Random thoughts.
Pj
Last edited by a moderator:
http://youtube.com/user/brianationx
You can all now be the judge. Of course, all the videos are done to a video camera, and not a real audience.
-ThrallMind
Thank you for that. I've been very curious, to say the least.
Pj