theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards
Our team is composed of the best of the best minds in the magic industry - from performers to creators and consultants.
From mind-blowing illusions to the world's finest playing cards, theory11 values quality over quantity.
theory11 artists are the foremost experts in the conjuring arts - from new upcoming talent to magic's greatest historians.
We produce world-class shows and live-events. Learn more about The Magician at The NoMad and what we can do for you!
Our team has consulted on countless projects relating to magic on stage and on screen around the world.
Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Product Questions and Reviews' started by trikuxabi, Jul 5, 2011.
awesome........for you to accuse me of ad hominem arguments when this entire forum was created to attack Jay Sankey is as hilarious as it is preposterous.....I hope you guys start one about me! I once got a negative feedback on eBay so I am obviously a dirty rotten crooked lying thief too! I'll be more specific- "not in the right mind", "possessed by collective anger", "cost me the battle", "the best of the original 225 purchasers", "passionate sense of apparent justice", "I sure wonder what that says about yourself" (that should read "says about you" by the way), "lies upon lies", "you have been brainwashed", "we're all trying to heal from", and then the clapping at the end- more warning signs I believe.......
"You sir have a lot of what are often referred to as "warning signs" in your posts. The fact that you are mad because you couldn't get a customized hand picked BABOM is as funny as it is pathetic. Do tell us all sir what it is you are "about to do"
This is borderline trolling. If a mod is reading this judge for yourself. I'd also IP trace this guy as I have a tingling he is Jay.
@silent again- regarding your comments on Slyder and speculation (and likely desire) that Jay is failing, some thoughts- Wouldn't it make the most sense for Jay to take full advantage of the promotional hype he has created for this product during its unveiling?- I mean he did invent the thing pretty much....
Answer me this, did BTR not have a promotional hype? I disagree with your claim that Jay soley selling the Slyder is a "full advantage". Jay can earn guaranteed profits by selling in bulk discounts to retailers such as Penguinmagic, E, and theory11. It is then up to the retailers to do their part in selling the products. Retailers can then promote the product by sending out newsletters and holding contests to encourage purchases. Even if someone on let's say theory11 isn't on Jay Sankey's newsletter, he/she can still be informed that Jay has a product coming out. Advantages: Guaranteed money and marketing.
To connect BTR and Slyder together BTR had the aforementioned advantages, while Slyder doesn't. I still stand by my speculation that because of Jay's declining image, retailers dont want to take the chance of ordering Slyder. I've even looked at the penguinmagic thread about BTR and found that one of their teampenguin members were on damage control. Name good Jay Sankey DVDs? Cmon. I have reason to believe dealers are not too happy with Jay.
"also, did it occur to you that these devices aren't shooting out of a machine in China and production in relation to demand might necessitate the need to control the release of this product?"
I would only imagine that Jay wants to make his product more appealing by marketing the Slyder as handmade. As for your claim that Slyder production must be fixed in low quantities, please substantiate this.
In layman's terms if there is a high supply of goods, for example, Slyders, it will be at low prices for consumers (economists understand this). However, since I and apparently you Allan (who I suspect is Jay) do not have crucial information (ie production costs, an estimate of willing buyers, etc) we can't jump to the conclusion that there should be a high supply of goods (via a "machine in China") and whether that will be a profitable decision.
Again, please be more specific when you say "attack some of the contributors". Disagreement is not an attack my friend.
So you are saying that you hold me responsible for how others respond to my posts? But you can't give me an example of what I've said that is an attack? Why can't any of you guys just admit you are acting like a spoiled kid on Christmas Morning?
SilentAgain, toolnard, thank you so much for backing me up. Your praise is like healing light for my soul. The lesson of recognizing the error of my ways was one hard learned by experience.
Guys. Saying that Allen5252 is Jay is not going to get us anywhere. It's entirely likely that he's just a supporter of Sankey who has something to say. Let's look at his arguments and not him as a person.
This is an attack. Specifically, name calling. They are not 'spoiled kids' they are dissatisfied customers. Why they are dissatisfied may not be worthy by your measurements, but that doesn't change the fact that they have complaints which should be addressed by Sankey & Co.
Again, I did get a BABOM, it didn't have everything on the list, I don't recall being promised anything other than $500 worth of magic which everybody got, and I honestly believe Jay went to every effort to satisfy those customers who have the ability to be satisfied. From what I can tell, those complaining on this page are not going to be satisfied with much of anything if they can't be satisfied with this. Jay recognized the same thing, and he told them to go because he knew there is nothing he can do for them.
Making an analogy regarding peoples behavior is not name calling. An example of name calling would be the "Jay Scamkey" moniker that was coined on this forum I believe.
Fair enough. I respect the fact that you can look on the bright side of all this. However, take this away from the BABOM and look at it in a general context. If you paid money for something and did not get what you paid for, wouldn't you be a little ticked off?
Yes and no. Saying someone is acting like spoiled children is not addressing their concerns either. It is an attempt to belittle them and invalidate their complaints. These complaints are valid and Sankey has not addressed them. Or rather, Sankey's employee (For whom he is responsible) has not addressed them, and Sankey has not followed up appropriately. The entire response has been, "Other people are happy, so stop complaining," and, "some people just can't be pleased." I'm fairly certain that, with a sincere apology and a more respectful tone Sankey & Co. could have avoided what has, frankly, become a public relations disaster.
I do agree that the Scamkey thing (as well as all the other snarky alterations of product or person's names) was out of line, but honestly forgot about it as I read this entire thread in one sitting.
Again- I am not Jay but I am amused by you guys imaginations. I live in Western North Carolina, I am 35 and I have been tinkering with magic since I was a kid. I've known about Jay for the last year or two and have made several purchases from his website.
Jay's declining image- please substantiate- are you basing that on what you have read in this forum?
And what reason do you have to believe that dealers "aren't too happy with Jay"?
Regarding my claim that Slyder is produced in low quantities, I will substantiate by saying that as far as I know, Roy Kueppers only has two hands and 24 hours in his day.
Not if I got more than what I paid for. and if not, I would be ticked only if I didn't get my money back after returning the product....
I'm taking my assessment of his declining reputation on various forums and personal conversations I've had with several people that until quite recently were rather big Sankey fans. I don't know the extent of this decline, but I have noticed a distinct trend of "He used to be good" going on.
And yes, since Kueppers is producing them I'm sure the Slyder gimmicks are not being churned out too quickly. I have no doubts that the paperclip is very fine. However, I can do the same things with a gimmick I can make myself for pennies, so this product does not interest me.
Is refunding the complainers money not addressing their complaints?
That's the only problem with your argument. You are assuming things based off of information you haven't collected, when it has either been provided here on the thread, or seen and requested multiple times. Don't get me wrong, I agree that the BABOM is a steal of a deal...for Sankey fans. But the point is, there was a list of things that were going to be included into the box that were not. There were subpar swaps for things that were "out of stock", and the promotional value of some of the boxes didn't add up to what was said. After numerous attempts at reaching customer service, they were brushed off to the side or provided with rude responses, or glowing reviews from other people.
The whole point of this specific thread is to show the rest of us why this BABOM disappointed the majority of the people who ordered. The specific case of someone pre-ordering for the shipping cost and getting it for $50, while everyone else had to pay 3x that amount is enough to complain.
If you feel that getting removed from the FB chat was unjustified (which I agree, it is a little bit ridiculous to get blocked from something like that), then take it up with the people who were conducting that forum. Ever stop to think it might be easier to track down the source and ask why you were treated unfair? Because that is exactly what these people who spent their money and have their own feelings about the BABOM have been trying to do. Sure, has Jay Sankey responded on this thread. Yes. But he hasn't provided any other information about why these orders were not fulfilled properly, and simply copy and pasted other positive reviews.
You seem like a smart guy. You should try to understand that regardless if you are a business owner or a customer, the customer comes first, and the customer is the most important thing to a business. If "Eric" is happy to not do business with everyone who feels cheated from this promotion, then all of that money needs to be refunded to these unhappy customers. This business obviously doesn't need or want any of their money. But instead, for SM, it is easier to send refills and other items to make up for the lacking original BABOMS that were sent out.
Allen, you don't get to tell these people how to feel because you feel that this was a great deal. Let them go on and voice their concerns and opinions and get together to find an end to this. This is a big number of people for one product to be upset.
I am not basing Jay's declining image based on this forum soley. I have reason to believe so because of complaints on the magic cafe, complaints here, and dealers do not have any slyders on their sites (look it up yourself if you dont believe me). The latter is quite unusual since suppliers usually try to have multiple retailers in an attempt to maximize revenues. Asi I have previously stated, suppliers receive guaranteed money and marketing from retailers. Why no retailers now?
I obviously can't know for sure if dealers aren't too happy, as what ever happens in their boardroom stays there. But based on the fact that no retailer has the Slyder and the fact that penguinmagic had to do some damage control so they can hopefully squek out some BTR sales led me to wonder if dealers were starting to distrust Jay.
As for your claim that "also, did it occur to you that these devices aren't shooting out of a machine in China and production in relation to demand might necessitate the need to control the release of this product?"
You have retracted what you said. You even admit that you don't have the crucial information to prove that Jay needs/wants a limited supply of Slyders. We (me and you Allan) obviously dont know what his breakeven point is so it is really something for you to make your claim that Sankey needs a low supply of Slyders in relation to the demand.
As for who you are, we'll just see what a mod has to say.
Forgive me for my tone; over the years, I have learned to temper my emotions with utmost formality in my speech, both online and in the real world. It helps to control my anger, and in all true honesty, you are not helping at all by picking away at that facade.
In your replies, you have made it clear that you choose to ignore the facts that have been made readily available and quite frankly, your last few responses to me started to become borderline incoherent ("I once got a negative feedback on eBay so I am obviously a dirty rotten crooked lying thief too!" how does this have to do with anything?)
At this time it would behoove you to cease broaching matters that have long since passed. You have done nothing but undermine your own credibility by provoking the angry responses within this thread (I bet you probably will start insulting my intelligence really soon; I honestly look forward to it). If you choose to remain intractable in your position, then I suppose it is not worth wasting my time arguing with you anymore.
P.S. Warning signs? Of what?
"But the point is, there was a list of things that were going to be included into the box" I saw and referred to this list many times. I never recall it saying "every big ass box of magic will contain" at the top of the list. I do recall Jay saying something in the videos about some of the boxes being different based on what was available.
Regarding being removed from FB- I am totally fine with it- it proves my point that this is more about specifically focused anger as opposed to open discussion. Regarding the customer coming first- it is up to the business owner to decide who comes first- and it is not written in stone that rude, borderline psychotic (not my words) , customers have to come first, second, or anywhere for that matter. I'm not telling people how to feel btw, I'm just standing up for somebody who finds their reputation in this lions den when all they were trying to do was satisfy customers and liquidate his warehouse (I'm guessing because he is successful and moving on to bigger better things- just a guess though).
I just think the anger in this forum is childish and unnecessary. What ya'll should have done in this forum was set up a trading post for the BABOM holders and then everybody could share with each other their happiness and not their chronic discontent.
"BABOM disappointed the majority of the people who ordered"- I doubt this