Dealing with Skeptics.

[Keo]

A skeptic is someone who questions what they are seeing, and uses their intelligence to try and deduce an explanation of what they are seeing in an attempt to better understand the world around them.

A hard spectator, may be a skeptic, but generally is not. They are just people who A) don't really want you to be there right then, B) Is not having a good time, C) is just a generally cold person.

A heckler, is someone who tries and deduce a method, fictional or not, for malicious intent. They usually want to draw attention away from the performer and try and gain status in the social interaction. They should only be ignored until the appropriate moment for you to leave, rears it's head. If the heckler wants to be the funny guy, the ashat, you as a perform, paid or otherwise, should not attempt to offend or embarrass that person. You are only yielding to the alpha and giving that person reason to not like you more.

 

[Keo]

^ Ironic: Hello, kettle, meet pot.

Sage advice for any artists/performers/creators who prefer to keep their focus on the craft itself rather than glasshouse stoning: "Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you too can become great."

Hey, welcome to the forums. However, if you got a bone to pick about Steer or anyone on the forum, post on their visitor message board or PM them. Unless of course while picking apart someone you include points that actually move the thread forward in the intended topic. Other then that, cool it.

 

[Craig Browning]

I personally believe, this based on a few decades of doing this corn-ball stuff, that someone in your age-group making such comments is merely screaming for attention and seeking to rent space in your head. . . worse yet, you're letting him win by giving him your head-space for free -- he's won!

Handing him the deck can in fact backfire in a very big way, a friend of mine many years ago pulled this not realizing the guy he handed the deck to was a Casino dealer and flim-flam expert with an excellent eye. Fortunately this guy also had the cooth to give my friend some pointers so he could cover his weak spots. Which brings me to the next bit of crow you might wish to nibble on. . .

The biggest reason someone will guess what you've done is because you lack in skill and showmanship. If you consider this truth rather than cry about getting caught out, it may inspire you to practice things a lot more than you tend to do before performing them and showing off. . . Richard Ross practiced his linking ring routine for nearly two years before showing it to anyone, I know of a few others of note that spent well over a year perfecting their cups & balls or Billiard Ball work, etc. I even remember Bill Malone investing an easy 8-10 hours a day developing his slight of hand skills back in those days in Chicago and we both weighed about 90 lbs soaking wet (and Bill had one of the fluffiest afros going).

The moral of the story is, if you suck then either give up or step back and actually learn how to do magic vs. trying to do tricks. There was a rather famous guy that was told this long ago and when he finally knuckled down and started to actually learn all of the nuances to every move, he became great. . . his name was Albert Goshman.

 

[waltertayspades]

Get Electric Touch and shock the guy.

 

[Austin Fields]

On a note relating to the actual thread instead of people *****ing about me yet again, who here other than Will can actually describe the difference between a skeptic, a tough spectator and a heckler? If we're going to have this conversation, that distinction needs to be made because it's pretty obvious a lot of you don't know.

I'll give this a swing.

A skeptic is a person who normally sits back with their arms crossed, doesn't show a whole ton of reaction. They know how the trick MUST be done, so it seems as though within their head they are trying to get one step ahead of you so they can spot the method. Most of the time these are people that seem to appreciate your show the most, as they realize how much effort you've probably put into it.

A tough spectator is someone who is usually involved in your effect, and instead of just being the spectator, begins to scrutinize everything, and act like because they're right next to you that if they don't see or figure the method out they'll feel stupid. This can also be someone far back who is leaning over and talking to someone close to them, giving obvious signs they're discussing the method, smiles, nods, rib poking etc.

A heckler is someone who takes an active role in your effect to the point that they are interfering with the effect, a level up from the previous two people. They'll try to not only deduce the method, but halt it half way if they feel they can, turning cards over that are face down etc. Other times these people are the types that will speak out so the entire audience can hear about the methods they think you're using, or interrupt your patter lines with "smart" remarks.

 

[Steerpike]

^ Ironic: Hello, kettle, meet pot.

You like irony do you? I have actually contributed to the thread. You are still complaining about the mean, scary man on the internet. If you want to play this game with me, you will lose. You can quote other people until you're blue in the face. But don't chastise me and call me counterproductive when you yourself have contributed only two things: jack and ****. Also, please do not mischaracterize my argument with a straw man, child. I am not out to "belittle your ambitions." I'm telling people why their advice sucks and what bad habits/ideas they need to change. If you're looking for insincere praise in place of actual criticism, I can provide you a link to the Magic Cafe.

If you'd like this to continue, please take it to PM.

A heckler, is someone who tries and deduce a method, fictional or not, for malicious intent.

This is the really important distinction to make. A heckler is someone who just wants to screw up your show for whatever personal reason they have. They just want to mess with you.

Skeptics generally won't interfere. Most of them are too polite. But a tough spectator will screw you up not because they don't like you. They're just not emotionally involved in the performance, and that's your fault. The burden lies on the magician to actually engage the audience. You are not entitled to their attention.

Take a look at Craig's post above. When was the last time someone had the guts to tell you, "That really sucked. You need to practice more."? Do you think maybe there's something to this criticism thing? And before any of you whine that Craig is being too negative, I will remind you all that he has forgotten more about magic and mentalism than any of you have ever learned. Sometimes you need a kick in the ass to motivate you to become more than you are.

 

[danielmontagne]

Get Electric Touch and shock the guy.

that's a good idea ! may be the best to use with this gimmick

 

[ReservoirRed]

Talk about over complicating things.

A skeptic spectator means they aren't convinced it's real magic. In a larger sense im a skeptic towards the supernatural. Being a skeptic might ocassionaly make them a tough spectator, but being that im a skeptic and i love watching magic, narrowing a description down to "a person who normally sits back with their arms crossed" is crazy.

A tough spectator can be any number of things, i dont know how to narrow it down. Maybe the worst can be described as in-the-closet hecklers. But not necessarily, i can recall performing for an eldery group of people, not realising that, unfortunately, they were't completely aware of what was going on, and i have no idea if they enjoyed it and couldn't express it, or they just didn't know i was performing for them. Ill say the toughest spectators for me are family and friends, i haven't performed anything for them in a very long time, with the exception of a friends birthday party, where i tried to stick to entertaining people i dont know. If anything about the person makes it difficult for you to perform for them at your best, then they are a tough spectator.

A heckler is someone who verbally or physically interfere's with your performance in a negative way.

 

[FlourishMagi]

How do you deal with skeptics (smart a**es) who think they are the best and know about everything you're doing?

^ Actually, I believe this was the original topic before it branched off into pointless pontification.

If you're looking for insincere praise in place of actual criticism, I can provide you a link to the Magic Cafe.

Regrettably, I have found that the vast majority of hecklers are usually fellow artists themselves who are more concerned with "one-upping" the other rather than maintaining their primary focus on the craft itself.

If you want to play this game with me, you will lose. You can quote other people until you're blue in the face. But don't chastise me and call me counterproductive when you yourself have contributed only two things: jack and ****. Also, please do not mischaracterize my argument with a straw man, child

I find it rather fascinating that while I may very well be the "child" in this "game" - per your generous description - still, it is you who chooses to personalize your posts with unnecessary taunts and jabs all whilst dispensing your "advice" to others instead of perhaps opting to simply address the topic solely.

 

[WilliamMckeehan]

I personally believe, this based on a few decades of doing this corn-ball stuff, that someone in your age-group making such comments is merely screaming for attention and seeking to rent space in your head. . . worse yet, you're letting him win by giving him your head-space for free -- he's won!

Handing him the deck can in fact backfire in a very big way, a friend of mine many years ago pulled this not realizing the guy he handed the deck to was a Casino dealer and flim-flam expert with an excellent eye. Fortunately this guy also had the cooth to give my friend some pointers so he could cover his weak spots. Which brings me to the next bit of crow you might wish to nibble on. . .

The biggest reason someone will guess what you've done is because you lack in skill and showmanship. If you consider this truth rather than cry about getting caught out, it may inspire you to practice things a lot more than you tend to do before performing them and showing off. . . Richard Ross practiced his linking ring routine for nearly two years before showing it to anyone, I know of a few others of note that spent well over a year perfecting their cups & balls or Billiard Ball work, etc. I even remember Bill Malone investing an easy 8-10 hours a day developing his slight of hand skills back in those days in Chicago and we both weighed about 90 lbs soaking wet (and Bill had one of the fluffiest afros going).

The moral of the story is, if you suck then either give up or step back and actually learn how to do magic vs. trying to do tricks. There was a rather famous guy that was told this long ago and when he finally knuckled down and started to actually learn all of the nuances to every move, he became great. . . his name was Albert Goshman.

Awesome post my friend!

 

[Steerpike]

If anything about the person makes it difficult for you to perform for them at your best, then they are a tough spectator.

A fair point. But again, this also means that it is the magician's responsibility to control the dynamic of his performance. This is not as difficult as it sounds, actually. You're never going to get perfect conditions for a performance, but you can tip the scales in your favor. The important thing is to get people emotionally invested in what you're doing. You can read more about this topic in "The Secret Art of Magic," which draws parallels between the live performance of magic and ancient Chinese war strategy. In the context of the latter, this was called, "Lure the Tiger from the Mountain."

^ Actually, I believe this was the original topic before it branched off into pointless pontification.

Do you have anything to contribute? Yes or no will suffice.

 

[saborfang17]

Regrettably, I have found that the vast majority of hecklers are usually fellow artists themselves who are more concerned with "one-upping" the other rather than maintaining their primary focus on the craft itself.

This seems counter-intuitive to my experiences, but I guess that's possible. Any heckler problems I've had are with "alpha males" who like to feel "in control" of the situation at all times (even amongst their male peers). But then again, I only regularly see one other magician these days, so that's probably why my results are different.

But I also have the feeling most magicians aren't performing for other magicians, as it doesn't serve their purposes.

I do, however, have one somewhat logical tip to contribute: Just don't perform in front of other magicians.

 

[TricksterG]

I do a lot of my work in a high school so naturally I get a lot of hecklers or people that kind of challenge you to fool them rather then wanting to be entertained. My advice, either walk away, or beat him at his own game with a sucker trick. A simple, oh i got your card wrong followed up by a colour change, not Erdnase because you already mentioned he figured it out, will suffice, though you may go more complex. Some tricks, I find, are veritably impossible to heckle, such as a one coin routine, they either think you are using two coins or it is going up your sleeve, and once you disprove both of these, all they can do is sit back and admire your dexterity. Another thing you could do, if he is really bugging you still, is to make fun of him and turn the audience against him, look up jokes against hecklers or something along those lines and you should get a couple that will make your audience laugh and your heckler will either shut up and sulk in shame orrrr if he STILL persists, do what I do, stalk him until you find out where he lives, kill him in his sleep, and devour the remains, then when someone heckles, all you have to do is tell them what happened the last time someone heckled you, hehe
As usual, I wish you all the best in all endeavours magical or otherwise.

 

[Steerpike]

I do a lot of my work in a high school so naturally I get a lot of hecklers or people that kind of challenge you to fool them rather then wanting to be entertained. My advice, either walk away, or beat him at his own game with a sucker trick. A simple, oh i got your card wrong followed up by a colour change, not Erdnase because you already mentioned he figured it out, will suffice, though you may go more complex. Some tricks, I find, are veritably impossible to heckle, such as a one coin routine, they either think you are using two coins or it is going up your sleeve, and once you disprove both of these, all they can do is sit back and admire your dexterity. Another thing you could do, if he is really bugging you still, is to make fun of him and turn the audience against him, look up jokes against hecklers or something along those lines and you should get a couple that will make your audience laugh and your heckler will either shut up and sulk in shame orrrr if he STILL persists, do what I do, stalk him until you find out where he lives, kill him in his sleep, and devour the remains, then when someone heckles, all you have to do is tell them what happened the last time someone heckled you, hehe
As usual, I wish you all the best in all endeavours magical or otherwise.

I don't like this approach for several reasons.

1. It invites more ill will and reprisal. My preferred is to let someone who insists on being a nuisance tie their own rope. If I do nothing obvious to encourage this, then there's no one act I did that they can point to and blame me for their embarassment.

2. Most people can't do insult comedy. Contrary to what many people believe, being funny is actually very difficult. It's more than just telling jokes. You have to have a clearly defined character to give the jokes context, you need to have tight comedic timing, you have to understand complex rhetorical constructs like irony very thoroughly and more. Trying to do insult comedy before you know the fundamentals of comedy isn't just trying to run before you can walk, it's trying to run the Iron Man Triathlon.

3. Sucker tricks are to be used sparingly, and seldom as a spiteful gotcha. Be honest, if someone pulled a gotcha of any variety on you to make you look foolish, would you be impressed by their wit and admire their charisma? Or would you think, "This guy's a dick!"?

4. Not everyone giving you a hard time actually dislikes you. Why give them a reason to?


So all that considered... what are the reasons to do this again if you're name is not Gazzo?

 

[Keo]

Something else crossed my mind the other night. If you absolutely can't get away from the heckler because you have obligations to be filled, switch to self working effects. Do a self working effect out of your hands, give the deck to someone who is enjoying the show. Let them do the magic and be amazed, if the heckler wants to continue, you are handing the floor over to the one who is having fun. They may be more inclined to quiet the heckler.

 

[Craig Browning]

SKEPTIC
[skep-tik] Show IPA
–noun

1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
2. a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others.
3. a person who doubts the truth of a religion, especially christianity, or of important elements of it.
4. PHILOSOPHY

a. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.
b. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind​

–adjective

5. pertaining to skeptics or skepticism; skeptical.
6. ( initial capital letter ) pertaining to the Skeptics.​

Also, sceptic.

Just in case any of you never read a dictionary I thought I'd toss that in for your consideration. It's always amazed me just how much isn't taught in school these days.

BTW. . . I don't see anything in any of these definitions that would apply to one's critical look or opinion of an act/presentation which typically pertains to a "Critic" or someone that is "Critical" and/or "Hecklers" a.k.a. smart-asses.

As I mentioned however, this sort of character is more than plentiful in the world (just wait till you're old enough to work in clubs and get to deal with drunks). It doesn't really matter if you're doing magic, comedy, acting or singing there's one in every crowed and it is typically the result of their own personal hell, having little to nothing to do with the performer in the least, you become their target simply because you're stealing attention away from them and worse, you are demonstrating something that makes you appear as superior to them. Their only recourse is to put you down and CLAIM that they know how it works, etc. 90% of the time that don't know diddly-poop, it's simply a bluff given to steal your thunder and nothing more.

As noted, your best and most productive course of action is to improve on what you do and how you do it so that this character becomes enchanted -- your supporter vs. your foe.

BTW. . . people pay jerks like me to study their acts and essentially rip them to shreds so they can make improvements/refinements. It's one of the things that separate the working pros from the wannabes and one of the reasons show biz, as a whole, is a vicious mutha when it comes to career choices. It's a vocation that demands a thick skin, determination, discipline and focus. If you can't handle critique or hecklers, you may as well get on staff with a local factory or construction company because you aren't going to make it in the Biz.

 

[saborfang17]

So all that considered... what are the reasons to do this again if you're name is not Gazzo?

This made my day.

2. Most people can't do insult comedy. Contrary to what many people believe, being funny is actually very difficult. It's more than just telling jokes. You have to have a clearly defined character to give the jokes context, you need to have tight comedic timing, you have to understand complex rhetorical constructs like irony very thoroughly and more. Trying to do insult comedy before you know the fundamentals of comedy isn't just trying to run before you can walk, it's trying to run the Iron Man Triathlon.

Steerpike (or anyone else, for that matter), could you please list any recommendations for books on comedy to start with? I know experience is the best teacher, but surely there must be books that'll help at the onset.

 

[RDChopper]

Steerpike (or anyone else, for that matter), could you please list any recommendations for books on comedy to start with? I know experience is the best teacher, but surely there must be books that'll help at the onset.

I can't recommend any good books on starting comedy, But I can suggest some teachers and courses of PUA stuff (Pic up artist) things that has helped me a lot. I doesn't only teaches you to pick up women, It shows you how to take attributes from yourself and making them work the best for you, things like this helps you to take control of any social situation and be a leader.

I would also suggest leaving cards aside and work on your social skills a little bit more, If you win people over (witouth cards) the chances of encountering someone that just wants to heckle you and mess your stuff up just for the heck of doing it will reduce a lot.

David Deangelo: "Double your dating"

Style: "The Annhilation method"

I strongly recommend Style method a lot. Aside form teaching pick up lines and stuff like that, it teaches you how to become your best self in any situation.

There is also a book by Dale Carnegie called "How to influence people and win friends" that I strongly recommend.

 

[mehar]

I can't recommend any good books on starting comedy, But I can suggest some teachers and courses of PUA stuff (Pic up artist) things that has helped me a lot. I doesn't only teaches you to pick up women, It shows you how to take attributes from yourself and making them work the best for you, things like this helps you to take control of any social situation and be a leader.

I would also suggest leaving cards aside and work on your social skills a little bit more, If you win people over (witouth cards) the chances of encountering someone that just wants to heckle you and mess your stuff up just for the heck of doing it will reduce a lot.

David Deangelo: "Double your dating"

Style: "The Annhilation method"

I strongly recommend Style method a lot. Aside form teaching pick up lines and stuff like that, it teaches you how to become your best self in any situation.

There is also a book by Dale Carnegie called "How to influence people and win friends" that I strongly recommend.

I think Sabor's not talking about socially, more about having a comedic act?

 

[RDChopper]

I think Sabor's not talking about socially, more about having a comedic act?

Yeah I know, I was just adding something useful