My level

[1818]

Hi, I have asked this question in two other forums. In penguin, and the cafe. In the cafe, there was a HUGE thread on this, and if you are an active user there in the card magic section, you probably saw it, it was a very big thread, I am hoping that this one won't be so big. Here is the question: what is my level in card magic? In the other forum, people were saying that I did not put enough information in it, (and when I think that I finally did, I got banned from the cafe, and I have really no idea why, I emailed the owner, but got no reply). This time, I will not put any information, I am going to ask you to ask me. Ask me any question, and I will answer. I don't want to put information, or it will probably be little information, and maybe useless. So I am asking you guys to ask me all of the information that you need. What books do I have? Can I palm cards? Whatever.
There are two reasons why I want to know my level:
1. In some book/DVDs, it says this is a book for beginners or for intermediate people. I want to know which one I would be.
2. I just want to know where I am overall.

P.S. I cannot put videos on YouTube, I am camera shy.

Thank you.

 

[1818]

It`s funny how three of my threads are on top, .

 

[worldwideme]

what books do you have?

what effects do you perform regularly?

what is your most difficult sleight?

just getting warmed up

might as well list your card magic DVDs as well

 

[MalibuARMY]

Okay, well I cannot know your level unless I see your skills, but I can ask you what trick do you have down *150% which is the most difficult to perform.

I do not just mean skill wise but presentation and misdirection and how much you know in all.

For me, I am high intermediate to advanced in presentation and performance skills. I know how to work a crowd and stay comfortable at all times. For skills I can perform 150% for certain tricks after I put a good amount of hours into each part of the slight or technique.

PS: How old are you? How long have you been working in magic, how many hours do you put in a day, for me it is 3 hours to 8 hours a day or more. Generally if you have to ask what your skill is it might be fairly low, when you are good you will know. How about you PM me and I'd be glad to help you on any area.

 

[1818]

what books do you have?

I am not a very big fan of books, so I will tell you what books, and DVDs that I have: Expert at the Card Table (Allan Ackerman's DVD) I am currently working on this one, Fast Company (I finished, I have perfected most of the sleights, except for the hops, they are very hard), Born to Perform Card Magic (that one is very basic), Royal Road to Card Magic (I decided not to focus on this one so much, but focus more Erdnase, so I just mastered all of the SLEIGHTS, but few tricks).

what effects do you perform regularly?

I do this as a hobby. But the effects that I perform regularly would be "The Sting" by Darwin Ortiz (please correct me if I got the name wrong), the Biddle Trick, ACR, a few gambling demonstrations, the trick in Erdnase that you blindfold yourself and hit the person's card with a knife (but without a knife ), and a few others.

what is your most difficult sleight?

This is a hard question. Maybe the bottom and second deals. I don't know if this is very difficult for most people but for me, it was very difficult to perfect, the push through shuffle, maybe even more than the false deals, but for some reason, I think that for most people, false dealing is harder. Maybe there is a harder one that I remember, but as far as I remember, these are the hardest.

ust getting warmed up

Hehe

might as well list your card magic DVDs as well

Oops, I forgot about this question, so I just answered it above.

Thank you.

 

[1818]

I have to go now, MalibuARMY, I will reply to you later .
Thank you.

 

[Vorezo]

I think its silly to ask you questions to find your skill level, but if i had to ask one how long have you been into this?

 

[praetoritevong]

Three things...

a) Level is so subjective that it's difficult to say in any meaningful form. But, most people tend to overrate themselves and others. I do see why you want to know, though, and I understand that - but you should know that there really is no real answer at this stage (I say at this stage because when you get to the level of someone like Darwin Ortiz, Richard Osterlind, etc. - there really is no doubt that you are a master - but for most mere mortals, it's not really a feasible question to answer).

b) Show me a performance to real people, and I'll tell you my thoughts. Skill has absolutely nothing to do with what you have (you can have 100 books and never have understood any of them), what you can do (technical chops is not magic - unless you're doing a gambling demonstration - and even then, only part of the magic - skill is insignificant as long as you can achieve the illusion and astonishment of magic), what you perform (mentalism is a relatively less sleight intensive field, but far harder to actually perform), or how long you've been performing (you can do the same things wrong for 10 years).

c) The closest to an answer I could give you is to talk to your audiences. Also, watch yourself perform - and then go to professional shows, both good and bad. Go see someone like Banachek or Penn and Teller or Derren Brown perform, and compare.

Finally, to be honest, and with the greatest of respect to everyone else who has helpfully offered their opinion with good intentions, most people, myself included, lack the knowledge to even give you an accurate answer. And especially without seeing you perform, all the other factors, as I've mentioned, are relatively insignificant. Therefore, any answers you get here, may as well just be pure guesses. You may as well consult an oracle.

To clarify - sleight of hand ability often accompanies a skilled performer, but not always. There's a small positive correlation there. But it doesn't guarantee that someone with sleight of hand ability is also a good magician - only a good technician. Ultimately, we demonstrate magic through performance, a culmination of many different layers, to entertain - and sleight of hand is but one of those, and not a very important one at that (or else the best tricks would be the most difficult ones without fail). So, judging your skill through things like sleight of hand are, at best, an educated (and not particularly educated) guess, and at worst, pulling something out of a hat.

 

[Bill Charlton]

I think I am ádvanced' because my mentor says so though I can't really get opinions except from some of my friends or mentor.

 

[1818]

Three things...

a) Level is so subjective that it's difficult to say in any meaningful form. But, most people tend to overrate themselves and others. I do see why you want to know, though, and I understand that - but you should know that there really is no real answer at this stage (I say at this stage because when you get to the level of someone like Darwin Ortiz, Richard Osterlind, etc. - there really is no doubt that you are a master - but for most mere mortals, it's not really a feasible question to answer).

b) Show me a performance to real people, and I'll tell you my thoughts. Skill has absolutely nothing to do with what you have (you can have 100 books and never have understood any of them), what you can do (technical chops is not magic - unless you're doing a gambling demonstration - and even then, only part of the magic - skill is insignificant as long as you can achieve the illusion and astonishment of magic), what you perform (mentalism is a relatively less sleight intensive field, but far harder to actually perform), or how long you've been performing (you can do the same things wrong for 10 years).

c) The closest to an answer I could give you is to talk to your audiences. Also, watch yourself perform - and then go to professional shows, both good and bad. Go see someone like Banachek or Penn and Teller or Derren Brown perform, and compare
Finally, to be honest, and with the greatest of respect to everyone else who has helpfully offered their opinion with good intentions, most people, myself included, lack the knowledge to even give you an accurate answer. And especially without seeing you perform, all the other factors, as I've mentioned, are relatively insignificant. Therefore, any answers you get here, may as well just be pure guesses. You may as well consult an oracle.

To clarify - sleight of hand ability often accompanies a skilled performer, but not always. There's a small positive correlation there. But it doesn't guarantee that someone with sleight of hand ability is also a good magician - only a good technician. Ultimately, we demonstrate magic through performance, a culmination of many different layers, to entertain - and sleight of hand is but one of those, and not a very important one at that (or else the best tricks would be the most difficult ones without fail). So, judging your skill through things like sleight of hand are, at best, an educated (and not particularly educated) guess, and at worst, pulling something out of a hat..

You know what, I think that you are right. You can't tell me my level for the various reasons you said, and like someone else said, it is kind of silly.
I want to change my question: After I finish Erdnase (except for his culling, and a few other of his techniques, since they would not be helpful when you are not playing a game) I would say that I will be technically 'intermediate', would you agree? (off course there are all of the other things that you said, like presentation). When I am at that stage, where would you recommend me go next? I do want to do magic tricks, but also do card mechanic stuff, like some of the things that Richard Turner does. Some of the people in penguin helped me find some DVDs that would help me apply my skills to good magic tricks. Now I am asking you, after Expert at the Card Table, where should I go next, in terms of skills with cards, learn more sleights, sleights that will be helpful, and that will take me to the next 'technical' level, and help me become a 'technical' expert. I have not forgotten about presentation, and things like that, it is in my plans to buy "Strong Magic" by Darwin Ortiz, and etc, but in this thread, I want to focus on how to get my technical part to the next level. So what DVDs, would you recommend after I finish Erdnase?
Thank you.

 

[praetoritevong]

I think that'd be a fair assessment of technical skill, assuming that you were performing everything correctly.

If you wanted some more technically-challenging sources, I'd recommend taking a look into things like Richard Kaufman's book The Complete Works of Derek Dingle, Eugene Burger's book Solomon's Mind, Ed Marlo's The Cardician, and Ernest Earick's book By Forces Unseen. Some other names to look into, depending on what you specifically like amongst sleights, might be Herb Zarrow's book, Dai Vernon of course, John Carney, Bro. John Hamman, and Ascanio's series of books.

As I write this, I've just realised that I've suggested all books, and you've asked for DVDs. I apologise - I accidentally missed that part of your post, but I do think there are some great sources I've mentioned above, so I won't delete them.

However, if you do want to focus on DVDs... What immediately comes to mind (it's more difficult because so many classic works aren't available in DVD format) would be Dai Vernon's Revelations. I've also heard good things about the Sal Piacente 2 DVD set. I'm really having a bit of a blank on other DVDs so I'll leave it here for now...

 

[RealityOne]

After I finish Erdnase (except for his culling, and a few other of his techniques, since they would not be helpful when you are not playing a game) I would say that I will be technically 'intermediate', would you agree?

As others have said, it really doesn't matter what "level" you are technically or otherwise. The truth is, the more you learn, the the more you realize how little you really know.

If you are able to work through the Erdnase DVD, you can work through anything else that is listed as "intermediate."

I find it interesting that you skipped over the effects in Royal Road and don't want to learn culling. That tells me you are learning slights for the sake of saying you know how to do the slight, rather than learning the slights with a desire to perform magic. As praetoritevong said, there is so much more that goes into performing than just the slights.

Also, you mentioned your not a big fan of books. Unfortunately, if you want to progress beyond "intermediate" in magic you need to learn how to learn from books. A first step would be to get the Erdnase book and go through it. Even though you have learned the slights from the DVD, going through the book will get you familiar with how to learn from books.

The second step is to get the first two volumes of Roberto Giobbi's Card College series. Some of it will be a review, but Giobbi provides so much more than teaching the slights. Don't shortchange yourself by only learning the slights, learn the effects and read the sections on performing and theory. Those are the best written books to learn from.

Another book that is amazing is Aaron Fisher's The Paper Engine. If you want a lot of technique for little cost, get Huggard and Braue's Expert Card Technique.

After that, expand your horizons and get books (in no particular order) by Bannon, Kenner, Acer, Harris, Krenzel, LePaul, Racherbaumer, Buckley, Walton, James, Kaufman, Ortiz, Carney, Huggard, Elmsley, Hammond, Dingle, Vernon, Annemann, Lorraine, Fulves, Scarne as well as the other three books in the Card College series. When you have worked through another dozen books by those folks, you can call yourself an "advanced" card magician, but it really won't matter at that point.

 

[1818]

I think that'd be a fair assessment of technical skill, assuming that you were performing everything correctly.

If you wanted some more technically-challenging sources, I'd recommend taking a look into things like Richard Kaufman's book The Complete Works of Derek Dingle, Eugene Burger's book Solomon's Mind, Ed Marlo's The Cardician, and Ernest Earick's book By Forces Unseen. Some other names to look into, depending on what you specifically like amongst sleights, might be Herb Zarrow's book, Dai Vernon of course, John Carney, Bro. John Hamman, and Ascanio's series of books.

As I write this, I've just realised that I've suggested all books, and you've asked for DVDs. I apologise - I accidentally missed that part of your post, but I do think there are some great sources I've mentioned above, so I won't delete them.

Thank you, maybe, like RealityOne I should try to start learning from books, they will be helpful. Thank you.

However, if you do want to focus on DVDs... What immediately comes to mind (it's more difficult because so many classic works aren't available in DVD format) would be Dai Vernon's Revelations. I've also heard good things about the Sal Piacente 2 DVD set. I'm really having a bit of a blank on other DVDs so I'll leave it here for now...

I just recently discovered that the Revelations was in DVD, but what exactly is it? I've heard it from many places. That could be a good option also.
Thank you.

 

[1818]

I find it interesting that you skipped over the effects in Royal Road and don't want to learn culling. That tells me you are learning slights for the sake of saying you know how to do the slight, rather than learning the slights with a desire to perform magic. As praetoritevong said, there is so much more that goes into performing than just the slights.

The reason why I skipped the effects in Royal Road is because I wanted to focus on Erdnase, not on Royal Road. Since Royal Road to Card Magic is a beginner's book, I wanted to make sure that I knew the basics first, before I went to more advanced things. I was already in the middle of Erdnase, when I decided to go for Royal Road. I didn`t want to stop focusing on it, but I wanted to make sure that I already knew everything (sleights) in RRTCM, most of it was review, but I learned a few new sleights. I will learn the effects in Erdnase. You are right that I do learn some sleights without really a purpose, but I like to, and I am sure that it will help me in creating new effects, to improvise in some situations, and I will know better how to manipulate cards. What do you think?

Also, you mentioned your not a big fan of books. Unfortunately, if you want to progress beyond "intermediate" in magic you need to learn how to learn from books. A first step would be to get the Erdnase book and go through it. Even though you have learned the slights from the DVD, going through the book will get you familiar with how to learn from books.

That is a good idea. One thing that I also do, is programming. I don't know why, but I can learn programming from books, and not just programming, other things. But I don't know why, but there is something about magic books, it's just harder. I opened expert at the Card Table, and it was so complicated, how to do the move, and etc. Allan Ackerman, in DVD made so simple.

The second step is to get the first two volumes of Roberto Giobbi's Card College series. Some of it will be a review, but Giobbi provides so much more than teaching the slights. Don't shortchange yourself by only learning the slights, learn the effects and read the sections on performing and theory. Those are the best written books to learn from.

Another book that is amazing is Aaron Fisher's The Paper Engine. If you want a lot of technique for little cost, get Huggard and Braue's Expert Card Technique.

After that, expand your horizons and get books (in no particular order) by Bannon, Kenner, Acer, Harris, Krenzel, LePaul, Racherbaumer, Buckley, Walton, James, Kaufman, Ortiz, Carney, Huggard, Elmsley, Hammond, Dingle, Vernon, Annemann, Lorraine, Fulves, Scarne as well as the other three books in the Card College series. When you have worked through another dozen books by those folks, you can call yourself an "advanced" card magician, but it really won't matter at that point.

Thank you, that is going to be helpful.

 

[praetoritevong]

Check this out:

http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27&products_id=1808

I do warn you though, that the set isn't cheap, lol, but you get a lot for $30 / DVD. I'd add too that this is on my to get list, despite the fact that I'm a mentalist... Just to watch Vernon perform and teach and so on.

 

[1818]

Check this out:

http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27&products_id=1808

I do warn you though, that the set isn't cheap, lol, but you get a lot for $30 / DVD. I'd add too that this is on my to get list, despite the fact that I'm a mentalist... Just to watch Vernon perform and teach and so on.

Thank you, but is there any way to buy each DVD separately?
Btw, I read your threads "This is Magic - Aim High" and "What does your deck say about you?" and they very, very well written, and interesting. I completely believe the story about your dream. This type of thing has happened to me about five times. It was different though, it didn't tell me as many things as yours did, but like one day I dreamed that someone bought something, and on the next day, that exact person, bought that exact thing that I dreamed. Yours had more detail, but it is very cool, and even scary when this happens, when some of these happened to me, I had tears coming off my eyes, it's amazing.
Thank you.

 

[praetoritevong]

I'm glad it resonated with you mate, not a problem at all. Appreciate the comments

Yes, I believe you can order each DVD separately for $34.95.

 

[1818]

I'm glad it resonated with you mate, not a problem at all. Appreciate the comments

Yes, I believe you can order each DVD separately for $34.95.

Thanks, I found it, are the DVDs made by Vernon, himself? I thought that the revelations were written. What exactly are they? I heard that it has something to do with Erdnase, but I'm not sure.
Thank you.

 

[praetoritevong]

Thanks, I found it, are the DVDs made by Vernon, himself? I thought that the revelations were written. What exactly are they? I heard that it has something to do with Erdnase, but I'm not sure.
Thank you.

Different Revelations mate. Vernon also wrote a book of notes and annotations on Erdnase called Revelations. This is a much more general DVD set published by L&L Pub. Have a look at the link provided above for a more comprehensive description of where the DVDs came from and what they contain.

 

[1818]

Different Revelations mate. Vernon also wrote a book of notes and annotations on Erdnase called Revelations. This is a much more general DVD set published by L&L Pub. Have a look at the link provided above for a more comprehensive description of where the DVDs came from and what they contain.

So it is made by Vernon himself, but what is the goal of the DVDs? To learn sleights? Cheating? Effects? I read the description of the Individual DVDs, but I don't know what a lot of those are. Is it for my skill level? And where will it take me?
Sorry I'm asking YOU all of these questions, it's because I couldn't find it there, and you probably know more about it then I do.
Thank you.