Thoughts on Criss Angel
- Thread starter Ziemes72
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Like him or not, we've got 11 pages and counting of him. The people who dislike him so much has seen more episodes and effects than I have ever seen of his stuff, and I am indifferent to him.
And no matter HOW he produces an effect, he's never crossed the line and said it was "real powers" and he stood up to someone who did claim that on national television. So no matter his clothing, his magical choices, his methods, etc, he's an entertainer, and never claimed to be more, and he does his job so well, the people who hate him watch his stuff. (And, it seems, looks for his stuff, and continues to talk about him).
Seems like he's a great magician to me.
And no matter HOW he produces an effect, he's never crossed the line and said it was "real powers" and he stood up to someone who did claim that on national television. So no matter his clothing, his magical choices, his methods, etc, he's an entertainer, and never claimed to be more, and he does his job so well, the people who hate him watch his stuff. (And, it seems, looks for his stuff, and continues to talk about him).
Seems like he's a great magician to me.
Like him or not, we've got 11 pages and counting of him. The people who dislike him so much has seen more episodes and effects than I have ever seen of his stuff, and I am indifferent to him.
And no matter HOW he produces an effect, he's never crossed the line and said it was "real powers" and he stood up to someone who did claim that on national television. So no matter his clothing, his magical choices, his methods, etc, he's an entertainer, and never claimed to be more, and he does his job so well, the people who hate him watch his stuff. (And, it seems, looks for his stuff, and continues to talk about him).
Seems like he's a great magician to me.
Careful, there's a fine line between entertainer and magician. His skills as a magician are questionable, his skills as an entertainer is indubitable. You can hate his material but respect him as a performer. Lots of people talk about him, but on this occasion, about his methods, big difference between that and watching his shows for the entertainment value.
Seems like he's a great entertainer
Careful, there's a fine line between entertainer and magician. His skills as a magician are questionable, his skills as an entertainer is indubitable. You can hate his material but respect him as a performer. Lots of people talk about him, but on this occasion, about his methods, big difference between that and watching his shows for the entertainment value.
Seems like he's a great entertainer
This is a good debate: the difference between an entertainer and a magician. But maybe that should be a different topic.
To me, he IS a magician.
Look at what we do. We all do it. We misdirect, lie, use gimmicks, use sleight of had, it's not that much different than using a stooge or a camera trick. We do what we have to to produce an effect.
No offense to the purists, but I'm sure I'm hearing "Oh, but I have practice and I have skills". So? Are people on this site so full of themselves that they don't realize that these are skills that anyone can get? I've done hypnosis for years and years, yet when someone performs it using a stooge, I don't get insulted. I know that the bottom line is to entertain an audience. To fool an audience. We have no special powers.
Another example of this attitude is one I've mentioned before: If there are two people who are overweight, and one of them loses the weight by diet and exercise and the other loses the weight by surgery, are you telling me that the first guy is really thin and the other guys isn't?
Sure, one works harder than the other, but the results are what matters here. They are both thin. (By the way, I know this first hand, I've recently lost 130 pounds, and yes, I did the hard way: diet and exercise).
I don't mean to insult or offend here, but it just makes me laugh that people are on their high horse saying "he's not a magician" because he uses any method available to him. People have been using stooges and camera tricks for years. Why is this not counted as being a magician?
I'll go along with people saying that he's not the best or not that good, that's fine. But to say he is not a magician is just having a superior attitude.
We do not have special powers. Please come down from your egos. Because, if you are performing and a trick goes wrong. I guarantee that you will use any means possible to pull that trick off. Even if it means resorting to stooges or trick photography.
Aha!, you set yourself up for this one.
Ok, so if we continue this analogy, and Criss Angel was the one who got the surgery, he'd claim on tv: "I worked hard with diet and exercise every day, in one full shot, no medical help, whatsoever. What you see is what you get. (To the surgeon) Have we ever met before? -'no'- Has my loss of weight been geniune? -'yea, dawg, that was crazyzeeeee! it was like: One second, he's fat, and the next, he isn't'- (He brings out a hot nurse) -'Oh My GOD! that's not right! how? heeh... how did you do that?'-"
Nope. You proved MY point. He IS a magician! Because, taking your example, his method on how he produced the effect is irrevalent because he still DID produce an effect that fooled and amazed people.
AND he's still thin!!!
Now, if he starts saying that it was a "ancient secret formula" pill or something and that he's charging 15.99 or whatever a pill and if you take it, it would make YOU thin, then that's another crossing of a line alltogether. That's scamming.
See the difference?
Nope. You proved MY point. He IS a magician! Because, taking your example, his method on how he produced the effect is irrevalent because he still DID produce an effect that fooled and amazed people.
AND he's still thin!!!
Now, if he starts saying that it was a "ancient secret formula" pill or something and that he's charging 15.99 or whatever a pill and if you take it, it would make YOU thin, then that's another crossing of a line alltogether. That's scamming.
See the difference?
Well, I never claimed that he WASN'T a magician, but I do think he's a terrible one at best. I don't find myself being able to respect someone who blatantly lies to his television audience. I mean, whenever he uses a camera trick, he says, this is unedited, what you see is what you get. If he uses a stooge, he says: We've never met before and the stooge of course agrees. Whatever he does, he says the opposite.
So get this, if he says his trick is 100% unedited, no stooges, no strings, what you see is what you get... Isn't that the same as saying: This is real magic, this is not a trick? With this in mind, the fact that he has the nerve to judge the morality of other magicians makes him a hypocrite.
Now, I'm not saying I'm always 100% honest when I perform, because on the occasion, I say things like: "The card is lost into the deck", "I did not influence your choice in any way" or "Here, take this ball and squeeze hard", but at least I know where to draw the line.
No, because he's not claiming a supernatural explanation.
Pop quiz: What's the difference between lying about your TV show having no camera tricks and lying about the dead?
Exactly. Whether he lies and says "I put two cards in the deck" or says "We've never met before", it's still an illusion to fool an audience because that's his job and the audience all knows, deep inside, that he is just doing a trick.
It's funny to me that it's okay to lie about "The card is lost into the deck", "I did not influence your choice in any way", but it's not when you say, "We've never met."?
Where you are "drawing the line" is the same thing as saying "I am limiting myself AND I am better than YOU."
Come down from there. Please. In regards to "lieing about real magic" you are no different than the rest of us.
Oh, I know !!! I know!! *raises hand* OHhhh Oooo! Pick me!!! Pick me!!!
Okay:
lying about your TV show having no camera tricks is to produce an effect that the audience knows that it's just a trick. It's a lie, but it's just entertainment and everyone knows it.
Lying about really being able to communicate to the dead is a way of exploiting people's emotions, money and hopes just to make a buck. It's more than entertainment, it's people's lives and emotions are affected -- and it's STILL a lie, no matter what.
How'd I do?
Nope. Remember: There is NO SUCH THING as "real magic". ALL of it is trick, from the purest slieght to the obvious camera edit. All of it is a lie. Period.
Well, he's certainly not claiming that there's a logical explanation, because he ruled them all out. There's either a logical explanation or a supernatural one, so which is it?
Ok, there's a difference, but he is by no means somebody who has the right to judge other magicians on their methods, because his own methods aren't so ethical themselves. It's like a rapist telling a mass murderer off. (I'm gonna get so destroyed for saying that
)
Are you implying that camera tricks and stooging are the only logical explanations?
No, no, no. Don't sidetrack. No obtuse, awkward analogies. What is the difference? I want to know specifically what the difference is.
If Criss tells the audience that what they see is what they get.Then isn't what they are seeing "magic"?So he is telling them that everything he is doing is magic.If he indeed cut the black man (he actually did) then what is the audience going to think.He said is not fake, that he never met him,that its real so It must be magic.If CAmera tricks and stooging are ruled out then what is the only logical explanation? Well magic of course.
SO he is Essentially saying"Im a magician and I have real Powers,look I can disappear this card and cut this man out,let him bleed and Pull the card out.
Remember its all real magic"
This is not a side track,Its the same thing.what is he doing in the show? Promoting his "magical powers",what was jim doing? the same thing.THe only difference is that Criss was stupid enough to call someone out.Criss is a liar,Jim is a liar.
everyone?Who are you to think for everyone.The audience doesn't know its not a trick because angel rules out that question by lying and walking on water and levitating from one building to another.So you are telling me that its ok to go on TV and say that your magic is reaL?WAIT ISNT THAT what Jim did?so they did the same thing huh,so Angel is an ideological bigot.
Isnt lying about levitating,walking on water,spliting a girl in half,having psychic powers,turning a girl into an adult the same thing,.And he also uses his "magic for personal gain" In an episode he supposedly found keys to a car and kept it.And stop making Jim like a guy that says he has real powers all over the place.His website is full of claims saying that is all entertainment.And in the show other did mentalism too,stigmata is way more offensive than talking to a ghost.
If you tell me that the things he does are not exploiting peoples emotions then I guess jesus never did either.
Well the thing is... Criss rarely performs tricks that aren't done in this way... But anyway, let's take his famous building to building levitation. He claims: "What you see is what you get, one clean shot, no camera editing, no strings, nothing holding me up" So who is he telling this to? Not to the paid actors around him, they know better. He's telling the television audiences at home.
And it's hilarious how he would say that it's all an illusion, because his statement from before is pretty much saying that it isn't an illusion. See what I mean by him making a statement and then doing the opposite?
I'm not sure what kind of answer you are expecting from me... It's a different kind of trick. In fact, it's the kind of trick that loses a lot more entertainment factor if you come up and say: "Actually, I won't really be getting possessed, I'm just going to moan and make strange movements". Look. Some people enjoy being fooled. Some people go a little further and enjoy this sort of paranormal/occult kind of things. Jim does what he does for entertainment, he doesn't ask people to pay him so that they can talk to their dead relatives.
Now, here's my question. I told you why I dislike Criss Angel, so now tell me what you dislike so much about Jim Callahan and the fact that he performs "spiritual possessions" or whatever it's called in his act.
Do you really expect me to believe that if an audience is told that there are no camera tricks or stooges, that every single one of them will default to a supernatural explanation? Yes or no will suffice.
The one that shows me you can tell right from wrong.
That doesn't answer my question. I perform haunted magic, and I do it better than Callahan. But I don't recall saying anything about Callahan specifically. I asked you about the difference between lying about a deck of cards and lying about the dead.
For some reason, you seem to actively avoiding giving me an answer.
Because Callahan wants to have it both ways. He wants to be a skeptic, and he tells people to make up their own minds, implying it's okay to believe he's real.
At least Docc Hilford admits he's a con artist.
No... at least I hope not. I'm hoping more people would go towards thinking: "This guy is blatantly lying". Because that's what I usually think and damn, do I hate being lied to. I much prefer being misled.
When I do tricks, I don't tell people: "I'm not using any sleight of hand"
If I use a gimmick, I pretty just try not to arouse extra suspicion by saying things like:"I'm not using a card with two backs". And when I perform around co-workers, I'd never say: "Have we talked about this trick beforehand in any way?" (Boy, do I love analogies)
Well, I guess the straight answer would be that one of the two directly involves the supernatural and the other only hints at it.
As far as I know, it's far worse than that... Have you been to his website? he claims Criss Angel never debunked him in the first place. He also backs up his performance with 50 000 $. I thought he hold people that he's 100% real.
But anyway, my question was: why does that bother you? who are the victims here? and how do they get hurt?
Let's stop there.
Assuming most people would not believe Criss is telling the truth about stooges and camera tricks, why would you bring up the threat of belief in the supernatural?
If the paranormal is not the only remaining explanation for people to go to, then why say the exact opposite and use that as an argument?
Let's try a different angle.
It seems to me that you have some preconcieved notions about the nature of haunted magic. I want to hear them. What do you think haunted magic is all about?
He also is challenging James Randi to test him, saying he's confident that they won't be able to debunk him.
When I know how much you know about haunted magic, then I'll know how to explain it to you. There's no guarantee however that I will answer you. It depends entirely on whether or not you give me the right answer.
All I know about haunted magic:
- You create dark and spooky atmosphere by dimming lights, lighting candles, drawing pentagrams.
- You perform effects while attributing the method to be that of the supernatural. ex: "Watch this key in my hand, the spirit in this room will move it"
- You spend a lot more time hyping up the effect. A lot more acting than normal magic. Everything is slow and smooth, yet spooky.
- Themes of the tricks are different. Try involving things like blood, rusty metallic objects, severed hands, etc.
That's about it... can't think of anything else for now.
- You create dark and spooky atmosphere by dimming lights, lighting candles, drawing pentagrams.
- You perform effects while attributing the method to be that of the supernatural. ex: "Watch this key in my hand, the spirit in this room will move it"
- You spend a lot more time hyping up the effect. A lot more acting than normal magic. Everything is slow and smooth, yet spooky.
- Themes of the tricks are different. Try involving things like blood, rusty metallic objects, severed hands, etc.
That's about it... can't think of anything else for now.
(sigh). That was not the answer I wanted. There was a question I really hoped you would ask, but you didn't.
I'm dropping out of the thread, as there really is no point in my being here anymore.
As to the issue of Callahan and talking to the dead, I leave you with this link and can only hope that any of you who are open-minded enough to click on it can figure out what I'm trying to say.
http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/
I'm dropping out of the thread, as there really is no point in my being here anymore.
As to the issue of Callahan and talking to the dead, I leave you with this link and can only hope that any of you who are open-minded enough to click on it can figure out what I'm trying to say.
http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/
In the context of a performance to fool an audience. Yes. There is no such thing as "real magic".
Now here is where you twist the words and meanings to fit your stance.
There is a major difference between saying "I'm going to do some magic" and saying "I really can speak to the dead." Major, major difference. One is to entertain. The other is to exploit.
If you can't see that difference, if you honestly can't, then I don't think you should be performing, or you're going to get scammed. In fact, it sounds like you already have. Sorry.
Faulty logic. No one actually believed that he cut open a person. If they did, why wasn't he arrested? Why was it just a blip on a tv show instead of on the news?
No, there is a difference between performing a trick and saying you have powers. No matter how much you try to twist it.
No, he's not. That is what YOU want it to say. That is how YOU are interpreting it so that you can have your weak stance on this. He said nothing of the kind. If you go up to Criss and ask him if he had powers and why isn't the man dead, etc, I'm sure he's say that it was a trick, not that he has supernatural powers. Any performer worth her or his salt will say the same thing.
But, here's the difference: JIM DID say he had powers. On live television.
Wrong again. He's on the show to promote himself, sure, but he is not there to prove he has "Magical Powers". His show is to freak you out. (Hence the name, "Mindfreak"), you can do that without any powers whatsoever.
....and it seems like he does his job well. You seemed to be freaked out by the "cutting the man open to get the card" trick.
No, no, no, no, no, no and no. I saw that clip. Jim said specifically that he HAS THE POWER OF TALKING TO A DEAD PERSON. On top of that, he names that person. That is quite, quite different than simply performing a trick. Jim was clearly trying to improve his chances of winning by trying to exploit people's emotions.
We are all liars. That's my point. But the reason why we lie makes the difference. For example, in my shows, I actually say to my audience, "I am going to lie to you for the rest of the show." and you know what? They are still amazed. When we perform, we are doing the same thing without actually saying it. It's understood that there is no "real magic" happening to get the card from the middle to the top, or cut a person to get the card. The audience knows that they were fooled, and on top of that, enjoys the experience.
But once you say "I have powers" and I mean say it, especailly on national television, then you are saying that you can do what science can't explain. You are above science, you should be revered in awe, (or sent money to) because you are beyond human. And there are desparate, gullible people who will give anything, (way more than just simply paying for just a show), to have their real pain and suffering aliveated by a false hope. That is a more than lieing. That is exploitation.
Okay, I'm sorry. There are a few nutcases out there who think that someone performing a trick means that they have supernatural powers. Most people are intelligent and reasonable and know that they've been fooled.
But, HE DOESN'T SAY OUTRIGHT THAT HE HAS POWERS. Jim did. That's the difference. Are you telling me that people should believe you have powers because you can make a card appear at the top of the deck? Please.
Nope, I've never said that, though you are trying very hard to put words in my mouth. In fact, I've said the opposet. And, here's the point, Criss has NEVER said he has "real magic powers". In fact, in every interview I've seen him in, he denies flatly that he does.
You are trying to draw out a statement via an inference. Be careful.
Yes it was. And that's why he deserved to be taken down right there. Because he is setting himself up to be able to exploit people.
If you think so, then you are truly guillible. No offense.
Let's see Jim talk to my dead grandmother. If he could do that, then I will agree with you. Until then, I say that Jim is more interested in exploiting people's emotions and beliefs to his own advatange without regard to those people's wellfare.
...I'll stand by the "ideological bigot" anytime over what Jim is.
No. Because he's not claiming that he can do those things for a fee to everyone. For example: if GuyOne performs a trick that makes a woman younger, and asks people pay for seeing that trick. But GuyTwo performs the trick and says "I can make you younger too, just send me money and with my power I'll make you younger".
The GuyOne is Criss. The GuyTwo is Jim. Who would you trust? Wait. Nevermind. I already know that answer. You would call GuyOne an "ideological bigot".....
Nope. I won't stop saying what I said about Jim. He started it. He's trying to back off now, but as I've stated before, he's not going all the way. He's still attacking Criss. Why? Because Criss exposed him for the fraud he is. I feel that if Criss didn't call him up, Jim would still be claiming he can talk to the dead.
Sorry, don't trust the guy. Should've had the integreity to not go down that path in the beginning. He's changing his tune only because he's been called on it. And he's mad that he had.
I've seen people like this before. I call 'em as I see 'em. Uri started that stuff and still tries to get away with it. Jim is no different in my opinion.
About stigmata being more offensive, well, that's your opinion. I find setting yourself up to exploit people far more offensive than any trick.
Sorry, I have to say this: You seriously need to grow up.
First of all, I am not religious. And religion is the biggest exploiter of people on the planet. But that's a whole other topic.