Torrents vs Selling

Is selling or buying a trick on ebay any better than torrenting magic?


  • Total voters
    112
Apr 28, 2008
596
0
Just to play Devil's advocate here...


What about the magicians who need the money just as much as you do? I know of a magician who didn't even finish high school and doesn't have anything to fall back on. We all like to think of magic creators/performers living in a house like Chris Kenner or Criss Angel, when in fact it's not true. Buying a magic DVD is making a commitment you are getting knowledge and it is hard to give back. If you are afraid about purchasing crap don't impulse buy, and ask questions about the effect to someone who owns it. So do you think that torrenting magic or buying magic off of ebay is justified even if it is as bad as TnR?


-Michael

If the product is of a poor quality and people choose not to buy it after torrenting it because they have seen how bad it is then I don't really have a problem with this. It means creators can't get away with deceptive marketing and low quality products. I don't believe you can be protected entirely from this by not impulse buying, i've bought products which appear to have great review but when I get them myself I find they're complete junk and almost unusable.

I don't believe the creators of high quality magic deserve to lose money but they are part of an industry which is known for deceiving the consumers and releasing awful products so it's hardly surprising that people will become skeptical when buying a product. You can't trust trailers as they rarely show the effect as it appears to spectators, the descriptions are often bordering on complete lies and there's loads of review by friends of the creator.

If you build up a good reputation then I still think you can make a good profit in magic and not be too affected by piracy, consumers will know they can trust your products to be good, e.g. i'm fairly sure Dan and Dave have consistently good sales as all their products are consistently of a very high quality. There's other magicians who are known for poor quality products, once you've bought a bad piece of magic from someone you're not going to want to give them any of your money again.

In response to your point about magicians with nothing else to fall back on, I don't have a great amount of sympathy for them. You don't have a right to make a profit as a magician, you have to earn respect by publishing consistently good magic. It's only a viable career (as a creator) if you really have something special to offer. If not, go and get a job. I know quite a few people who left school and have nothing to fall back on. Most of the time it was their fault, they were lazy, did no work, didn't go to class etc Why would I care if one of them happens to be a magician?
 
Just to play Devil's advocate here...


What about the magicians who need the money just as much as you do? I know of a magician who didn't even finish high school and doesn't have anything to fall back on. We all like to think of magic creators/performers living in a house like Chris Kenner or Criss Angel, when in fact it's not true. Buying a magic DVD is making a commitment you are getting knowledge and it is hard to give back. If you are afraid about purchasing crap don't impulse buy, and ask questions about the effect to someone who owns it. So do you think that torrenting magic or buying magic off of ebay is justified even if it is as bad as TnR?


-Michael

Is your friend a magic creator? If not that is kind of off the subject. I didn't say nor assume that every magic creator lives in a nice house. In fact that is why I worry about magic dvds in general. Most creators of dvd are in such a need for a quick buck that, they will do just about anything to get a poor SOB to buy there dvds.
They could use false advertising (not hype), a stooge among the forum spreading "great" reviews about certain products.

You just can't tell anymore. Besides the majority of people who do torrenting is very few. If a magic creator puts out a dvd chances are that the amount they sell will outweigh the amount of torrents downloaded. Unless it is mega crap and the good people of torrenting gives it an honest review.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Buying a magic DVD is making a commitment you are getting knowledge and it is hard to give back.

If you're only stream of revenue is selling DVDs of stuff you made up, you have bigger problems.

I don't believe the creators of high quality magic deserve to lose money but they are part of an industry which is known for deceiving the consumers and releasing awful products so it's hardly surprising that people will become skeptical when buying a product. You can't trust trailers as they rarely show the effect as it appears to spectators, the descriptions are often bordering on complete lies and there's loads of review by friends of the creator.

There's a bit of a catch 22 to the trailers as well. I call it the Sinful Doctrine.

When Wayne Houchin released Sinful, he showed an uncut preview of the entire effect from start to finish. Then came a legion of weaselly little twits who decided to use this perspective to reverse engineer the effect. They proceeded to flood YouTube and message boards with their discovery, practically copulating with their keyboards in excitement to show everyone how smart they were. You notice that not many trailers do that anymore.

So now the editors of these trailers are trying to find an adequate balance of footage showing the performer and the audience without giving these little toads enough to reverse engineer the method. At the same time, the magic community at large criticizes them and calls them dishonest for trying to strike up this balance.
 
Apr 28, 2008
596
0
If you're only stream of revenue is selling DVDs of stuff you made up, you have bigger problems.



There's a bit of a catch 22 to the trailers as well. I call it the Sinful Doctrine.

When Wayne Houchin released Sinful, he showed an uncut preview of the entire effect from start to finish. Then came a legion of weaselly little twits who decided to use this perspective to reverse engineer the effect. They proceeded to flood YouTube and message boards with their discovery, practically copulating with their keyboards in excitement to show everyone how smart they were. You notice that not many trailers do that anymore.

So now the editors of these trailers are trying to find an adequate balance of footage showing the performer and the audience without giving these little toads enough to reverse engineer the method. At the same time, the magic community at large criticizes them and calls them dishonest for trying to strike up this balance.

That's a very valid point, I probably should have clarified what I meant a bit more. I was thinking more about effects were the method just isn't particularly good and there's a major step cut out which often looks really weird and unjustified and the effect is nowhere near as clean as you might think, the description often reinforces this as well.

Obviously you have to not show too much I don't really object to this, it's just when editing is used to cover up a poor effect as opposed to just stop people easily reverse engineering it.
 
A question: What if it's no longer being made? Meaning the ONLY way you can get it, is from one of the two. If it's not being made anymore, and no retailers are selling it (Meaning if YOU sell it, no one gets a cut.). The only way to get a copy is from someone else. It's not taking away from the creator anymore. Just a thought.
 
A question: What if it's no longer being made? Meaning the ONLY way you can get it, is from one of the two. If it's not being made anymore, and no retailers are selling it (Meaning if YOU sell it, no one gets a cut.). The only way to get a copy is from someone else. It's not taking away from the creator anymore. Just a thought.


Ohhhhhhh that's a whole 'nother ball game. I do that with alllll the time. Even on stuff like video games and movies.
 
Apr 28, 2008
596
0
A question: What if it's no longer being made? Meaning the ONLY way you can get it, is from one of the two. If it's not being made anymore, and no retailers are selling it (Meaning if YOU sell it, no one gets a cut.). The only way to get a copy is from someone else. It's not taking away from the creator anymore. Just a thought.

Some people might disagree with this, personally I don't have a problem with it. I don't see why I should have to go searching on ebay for months and pay an absurd price simply because i'm not old enough to have bought it when it was released. If it's not available and not being reprinted it hurts nobody so I don't see a problem. The only argument I ever hear against this is that it's just inherrently wrong, which I don't think is particularly valid as it's completely subjective.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
This illustrates a point of why I distrust anyone who uses morals and ethics as an argument in place of... well, anything else.
 
Nov 17, 2007
62
0
check the price
BIG DEAL

[Edit by MOD//Please do not post links to bootleg copies of effects sold by theory11, or any company for that matter. It is legally and ethically wrong.]
 
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Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
With tricks it's a much different story because, when the trick is sold, there is still just one person out there who gets use out of that particular unit.

DVDs have knowledge that can be remembered and used, and typically perform without the DVD available. HOWEVER reselling a DVD, to me, is a fair practice... you're still robbing yourself of knowledge that will fade over time and that you will not be able to re-invigorate because the source of the knowledge is gone, so it is somewhat similar to selling a trick.
 
With tricks it's a much different story because, when the trick is sold, there is still just one person out there who gets use out of that particular unit.

DVDs have knowledge that can be remembered and used, and typically perform without the DVD available. HOWEVER reselling a DVD, to me, is a fair practice... you're still robbing yourself of knowledge that will fade over time and that you will not be able to re-invigorate because the source of the knowledge is gone, so it is somewhat similar to selling a trick.

But DVDs can be ripped onto iPods and computers BEFORE they are sold.
 
I'll try and explain this again in laymen terms....An artist that sells a his product to the PUBLIC, then that product NO longer belongs to the artist it now belongs to the consumer. If the consumer decides to sell HIS (bought and paid for purchase) as a used item on Ebay then thats HIS product. Which is an honest sell. If I walk into your house and steal your Sinful DVD then you press charges against me its NOT Wayne Houchin that presses the charges. This is an issue derived from people with too much time on their hands.

Now torrenting is just bad karma all together. You rip off a brick and mortar store its the same as an illegal electonic data transfer. I can't help but wonder why the obvious can't prevail here.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
May 31, 2008
1,914
0
Thank you DaveyG!

Well, since I'm here, I'll respond to some stuff Steerpike said to me four months ago.

Okay, now sell me on why the second-hand market is a moral blight that needs to be stopped.

It doesn't, I changed my mind.


Wrong! It's not theft, it's copyright infringement. If you can't tell the difference, don't enter the debate.

I never said it was theft, It's a crime either way.


How and why?

It really isn't, if you sell a DVD of an effect you still perform, that's wrong, because that's taking away from money an artist who created the effect deserves. If you sell a gimmick or a DVD of an effect you don't use, that's not bad at all. It's just selling an item.


Same question.

Because it is a crime, it's copyright infringement. I'm talking about people who post the illegal video for download, they should be punished. People who download it, well, they're technically stealing a DVD. Here, check out this commercial that used to be on DVDs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UeBO5-7cRs
 
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