theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards

You are not an artist!

dragon521 said:
Meh, there goes the glimpse of intelligent discussion here. Back to reading GuARDianz vS CENtUriOnZ threads I guess...
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I originally deleted this post - then decided to restore it, as I found the contradiction to be to good to pass up. How does this comment add to the discussion in any way, shape, or form?

Since I've reopened the thread, there have been a number of really great posts - but a few of you simply can't get past it and continue to try to pull the thread down. The same members that are complaining about the quality of posts, ironically.

For those of you who are continuing on with the discussion (as was intended) - respect.
 
jonraiker said:
I originally deleted this post - then decided to restore it, as I found the contradiction to be to good to pass up. How does this comment add to the discussion in any way, shape, or form?

Since I've reopened the thread, there have been a number of really great posts - but a few of you simply can't get past it and continue to try to pull the thread down. The same members that are complaining about the quality of posts, ironically.

For those of you who are continuing on with the discussion (as was intended) - respect.
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I can't help but agree with him Jon. As disrespectful as you say he was, he did bring an extra sense of intelligence to the forums. Not saying that there isn't some intelligence here, I just enjoyed the discussions he brought up.

And just to chime in on the situation, aren't PMs here so that they can be private and away from the general discussion area? You say that the majority of his disrespect came through PMs, not in the actual threads. I mean I may have said some disrespectful things in PMs and I've received disrespectful things. That's why they're private messages though right?

Anyways, I don't mean you any disrespect, just expressing my thoughts.

Edit: And I mean look, this thread has gotten more views in 2 days than the forum rules have gotten the entire time they've been up.

-Kevin
 
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jonraiker said:
I originally deleted this post - then decided to restore it, as I found the contradiction to be to good to pass up. How does this comment add to the discussion in any way, shape, or form?

Since I've reopened the thread, there have been a number of really great posts - but a few of you simply can't get past it and continue to try to pull the thread down. The same members that are complaining about the quality of posts, ironically.

For those of you who are continuing on with the discussion (as was intended) - respect.
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I did contribute first of all, and it is of my opinion that Steerpike had the power to light a fire under this community like no other. Banning someone like him is not going to help this community. If someone has to kick people's asses into shape with a few not-so-nice-words to make them that much smarter, then I'm for it. But hey, I guess the staff isn't for it.

Better?
 
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Alright guys, every post below mine should be about the topic the thread was meant for. Every post not on topic will be deleted.

-Doug
 
Perhaps this is changing the topic of discussion a bit, but when it all comes down to it, I just can't stand to see another (bland) flourishing video. Artist or no artist, watching a pair of hands do some excessive card juggling is effing boring. It has no life or animation of its own. It's a series of moves. People look ridiculous just standing alone in a parking lot doing the 100,000th version of Sybil and all her distant relatives to some corny techno music in black and white. I'm tempted to call people out, but I'll digress.

What would breathe more life into XCM? I genuinely think live performances of how the flourishes play out in real life would be a fantastic contribution to the magic community. I like seeing people actually respond to amazing skills of dexterity. For instance, I know a lot of people here hate on him for allegedly being too cocky an individual, but Liam Walsh has some of the most entertaining XCM footage I've ever seen. He doesn't even do anything all that spectacular, but I feel his live performances get more props than any De'vo or Daniel Madison wannabe.

The fact that these loners film these corny solo videos does (in my opinion) detract from the performance of magic as a whole. They don't contribute anything to the craft. Referring back to the original topic, Steerpike claimed such things were just (shameful) magical masturbation. It is. And the behavior seems to be encouraged and nurtured here. Everytime a new video is posted, people automatically give it five stars for impressing them. It's undeserved. It's unfortunate too, because I see wonderful performance potential for XCM, and it's not being seized by anyone.

Going back to magic-- look at where magic is now. When you see a televised magic show, the focus of attention is rarely on the actual magic anymore. It's on the animated reactions of people watching. It wasn't always like that. Back in the early 1990s, prior to David Blaine, televised magic specials were all about the magicians onstage. In fact, it could be argued that there weren't even actual audiences at the filming of these events, because they weren't given the respect or attention they deserved. Magic was boring then. Magicians thought they just needed to add more flare, more dancing, and more glitz and glamour to get the appeal they wanted. Doing such things only further harmed the craft and made them look absolutely laughable. It wasn't until the audience was seen as a primary focus of the work that magic started gaining credibility again. I feel there is a parallel between that phase and today's younger magic and flourishing communities. The performance of magic is retrograding due to magic hacks, copycats, bedroom magicians, and television laughing-stocks like Criss Angel who (again) only performs for a camera.

My opinion.

RS.

 
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KevinOwens said:
I can't help but agree with him Jon. As disrespectful as you say he was, he did bring an extra sense of intelligence to the forums. Not saying that there isn't some intelligence here, I just enjoyed the discussions he brought up.

And just to chime in on the situation, aren't PMs here so that they can be private and away from the general discussion area? You say that the majority of his disrespect came through PMs, not in the actual threads. I mean I may have said some disrespectful things in PMs and I've received disrespectful things. That's why they're private messages though right?

Anyways, I don't mean you any disrespect, just expressing my thoughts.

-Kevin
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When someone uses profanity and insults directed at the community that we work day and night to further and advance - even after multiple messages asking simply to phrase things in a better way - then banning is the last resort. Imagine approaching someone with the simple request that they not be so harsh when speaking with your friends and family (and I consider this community one big family) - and they return your approach with more profanity and insults. Would you want to associate yourself with this person? Would you want someone like this around?

I don't understand how select members of the same community Steerpike was insulting can come here and defend his actions. Things were said that shouldn't have been said; that we simply can't tolerate - but there's no need to publicize what was said privately (hence why I have refrained from doing so).

That said, discussion pertaining to Steerpike has run its course. What's done is done - our team agrees that this was the best course of action. Many of you think this was my judgment - my call - and this is completely false. This was a decision reached by our moderating staff, and I will stand behind it... even if it means putting my reputation on the line. Ultimately, we did what was best for this community.

Whether you agree or disagree, let's move past this and get back to the magic. Many of you complain when we close certain threads. I decided to reopen this as - I agree - it was a thread that led to very intelligent discussion. Don't bring it down by hanging onto something as petty as a member being banned for constant, repeated profanity and unprofessional conduct. He wasn't banned due to his thoughts, ideas, or posts. He was banned for time-and-time again refusing to follow the simple guidelines and rules we laid out when we launched the community. Be courteous, professional, and respectful. That's all that we ask.

As mentioned by Sinful, discussion should now return to the topic at hand - the reason for this thread.
 
I think that most people here are amateur artist. But artist's at that. There really isn't one person who can say weather you are or are not an artist.
 
I have to say...I don't think I've heard of the term artist used to describe a magician until T11 called their team "artists." I wholly believe that magic is an art form, as it can move people emotionally.

I think the problem we have here...is people are trying to put the term "artist" onto some pedestal. As if it is some special title to make us feel better about ourselves. From that, we give ourselves the title to make us feel even more special. Then the saddest part...some out there try and say who is and who isn't an artist to try and make the title even more special and exclusive.

It's sad that we as magicians created a term just to attempt to use it as a title of superiority.

The truth is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself.

What matters is who you are and how your spectators perceive your art.

-ThrallMind
 
I am going to comment on some of these comments (Department of redundancy department hello?) I have seen here. Please don't feel the need to reply, because much like the original post, these are merely opinions and I am entitled to them just like everyone else here is entitled to theirs. (Edit: I just realized there are 6 pages of this stuff I missed, so I just commented on the first page.. but I figure it's just a rehash of everything else after it so...)

TeeDee said:
I agree completely Steerpike, although maybe I wouldn't have put it in quite such an inflammatory way.
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Getting people to learn thru hate is sometimes the only way people will learn.

JetEyeNight said:
Ok, now people are really getting on my nerves. Juggling is not just a "display of skill". Haven't people ever heard of the "performing arts"? Juggling is a performing art, just as is XCM, or Magic. XCM is not just "a display of skill", it's a performing art.
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Yes but can you stand on a stage and do it for an hour and be entertaining... or for that fact even 20 minutes?

MitchellStafiej said:
Thing is, we shouldn't have to convince you. It's what WE believe, not about what you believe.

I really couldn't care less if you think I'm not an artist. I know I am and that's all that matters.

Mitch
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I don't think he wants you to convince him. I believe that was a rhtorical challenge. This is merely one person's way of getting some of you to open your eyes and your minds. Put down the angst and breathe a bit... that goes for all of you.

C=B said:
He said something you disagree with to make you think, my god.. burn him like the witch he is.
C
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Tee hee...

RDChopper said:
As I said before, this thread is a kick in the nuts to a lot of egos out there:rolleyes:
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BOOT TO THE HEAD!!!

POOT13 said:
I personally think that it's cute how steerpike thinks that he is above everyone else. How we are all merely deficient in our self awareness. I believe that I make my own thoughts and don't leave them in the hands of others. To merely shoot down other people's thoughts because they disagree with you is wrong. I am not here to argue with the argument presented, I am merely present to ask the question:

Steerpike, who do you think you are?

E
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Now I do agree that trying to counter someone else's opinion is a bit silly. In a case like this a post should be made and stepped away from and NOT replied to by the original poster if he was indeed trying to make a point.

However I don't think he believes he is above everyone else.. maybe he is just fed up and voicing himself in an open forum like anyone else here has done.

Arguing on the internet is like racing in the Special Olympics... even if you win yer still retarded.

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Now to talk about art: Art is a subjective abstract concept. However, if you are NOT furthering the art, it is NOT art. Art is in the eye of the beholder and other trite sayings of that nature. Some believe that magic is a Proto-form art. At it's base level, by itself, it is tricks and moves. However when it borrows from other artforms such as dancing, make-up, movement, acting, etc it becomes it own art of sorts.

As you were.
 
I personally think you begin your path to becoming an artist once you start to realize how little you really know and you step back and start to look at the big picture.

Sorta like an epiphany?

An artist is someone who is truly passionate about their artform, respects it history, and contributes to it.

For a magic trick to be a piece of art it has to have depth, and engage the audience's senses and imagination.

Now, is there a difference between being considered an artist by the layman than by your peers?
 
Finally read every single page and I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. For steerpike I couldn't care less what he did to anybody or me, this is a forum and if he likes to rant and rave and try to make his opinion mine then go ahead. Of course I highly doubt he would say anything to some of the people's faces here that post.

I do not believe anybody is an artist when they do magic. Sure you could possibly say it's an artform but to me the creation of a trick would be the art not the performing because it is very rare for people to have an emotional reaction no matter how great the performance is. Flourishing is something I would consider a artform because it is visualart in a sense I can't relate to a card or coin trick. It may seem very odd or incorrect to many people that flourishing is a art but magic is not but the line there is a thin one.

People also missed the point of this post and thought Steerpike was ranting again but actually I understood the point and I took it into consideration. The problem was that his responses were just dumb as hell and he started sounding like the steerpike I read before.
 
What seems to be everyone's problem these days?
Are magicians really all that egocentric? Why would you go through all that trouble and waste so much time, claiming that you are an artist, typing all these replies, flaming others and in the end stay in the majority.

Magic is an art. It's one of the performing arts. If you perform, you are an artist. I perform, I am an artist, I don't care that much. I put my efforts into other things, I further my magic, point people that start into magic in the right direction, however my main goal is performing.

There are many arts. Music, Painting, Poetry. I am not sure if everyone knows, but go to your local hairdresser. It's called "The Art of hair design". They make beautiful things with hair. I doubt they fight about it on a forum though.

It's not about what you call yourself. It's what people think of you. If you are good, if you caused emotions in them, made them wonder, think, even cry, then you will be remember as a true artist.

-Sebastian
 
The assumption Steerpike makes of course is that people care enough about their egos so as to get somewhat riled up concerning what someone on the other side of the world and over the internet thinks.
 
I have neglected to read this thread for days now knowing very well as soon as I saw the title and Steerpike being the originater that it would be flooded with post after post. Kudos Steerpike, you made one hell of a popular thread haha.

Regardless, I spent the majority of my morning here at work reading through the points that most of you made. Obviously the opinions in this matter are going to differ but I figured for the sake of killing time while at work I would share my opinion as well.

Magic in itself is an Art, this I agree upon. However; I feel that doing a magic trick does not label you an artist. I feel that the real artist are those that dedicate great time into not only their magic but also their performance as a whole. Those that try to touch others with the effects they perform and go past performing a silly magic trick to the point where you make a emotional connection with your audience. Those that have geniune reactions of joy, shock, amazement because of the routines that have put together... I feel those are the artist.

I don't consider myself an artist because I feel I haven't reached this point. I am a hobbyist simply doing magic and getting my feet wet right now. I someday wish to share incredible experiences with whatever audience I decide to perform for, then I will feel like an accomplished artist.

A lot of you have thrown out the actual definition of the word Art. What you don't seem to understand is that there are many variations of how people view Art as well as many other words in the dictionary I'm sure. That source doesn't seem to fit in with exactly what is being said here, you're trying to be technical but we're discussing something beyond that.

I feel that this is a topic that goes further than just Magic, I can imagine a forum of painters having the same discussion.

One last thing I wanted to point out...

I look around at paintings on the wall and though it's not particularly appealing to me, I claim these people to be artist and I respect them for that. I think they are because though something that's created isn't beautiful to you doesn't mean others don't see it that way.
 
I agree with you partially, but not entirely. Not all magicians are artists. The reason being some "magicains" don't make up their own material. So that's like trying to repaint a Mona Lisa. So that's all I havve to say.
 
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