You are not an artist!

Dec 9, 2008
16
0
37
iowa
theres truth in your statement i think people who try and act like someone else and dont add originality to their routine to make it their own, is just a magician, not an artist, an artist creates something original, a magician CAN become an artist i believe, this is a thread to stir up the forums and i think its a very nice touch but to conclude, as aggressive and original as your statement was it had truth behind it but i look forward to see more threads from you.
 

jonraiker

vp of development
Team member
Aug 5, 2007
1,330
24
Florida
instagram.com
Hey guys,

I'm going to go ahead and reopen this thread - as I trust you all will be able to add to it in a more progressive manner and direction at this point.

Remember, all we ask is that you state your opinions in a constructive and positive way. That's it. Nothing more. Don't result to insults to get your point across. There's simply no need.

Please, please, please PM me personally if you feel it starts getting out of hand. I check my PMs constantly and am always here to chat -- always. Thanks guys!
 
Aug 2, 2008
496
0
Cincinnati
I personally do not feel like I am an artist. But I know there are plenty of them on this website. In my eyes, if you create your own ideas and theories, if you push the art in some form (whether people know about it or not), if you are different in some way, then I think you are an artist.

I personally started magic about 9 months ago. I have not created my own tricks, nor have I pushed magic in anyway. I personally use magic for sheer fun and enjoyment. I still get nervous as heck when doing a trick for people and I'm sure I always will. I doubt I will ever become an artist in my own eyes. But to me, thats absolutely fine. I just want to have fun with it.
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
Hey guys,

I'm going to go ahead and reopen this thread - as I trust you all will be able to add to it in a more progressive manner and direction at this point.

Remember, all we ask is that you state your opinions in a constructive and positive way. That's it. Nothing more. Don't result to insults to get your point across. There's simply no need.

Please, please, please PM me personally if you feel it starts getting out of hand, etc. I check my PMs constantly and am always here to chat. Thanks guys!

I'm sorry, but is there a point now that Steerpike's banned? You've taken away one side of the argument (I know there were others, but he seemed to be the main force behind this debate) and would now be a simple ego-massaging discussion ('I'm an artist because XXX.' 'So am I.' 'Yeah, me too.') with very little point. Also (and no disrespect meant here) but I think it's a shame you had to resort to banning Steer, as he had some of the most interesting posts on Theory11 and made me think in a different way to certain matters. Is it worth losing someone like that for the sake of a few people that have had their eyes open to the fact that not everyone in life will give them a big smile? I don't think so. As I have said, sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing anyone, but I feel very strongly about this and think you are wrong about banning him. [overused sign-off line] Just my 2 cents. [/overused sign-off line]
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
I'm sorry, but is there a point now that Steerpike's banned? You've taken away one side of the argument (I know there were others, but he seemed to be the main force behind this debate) and would now be a simple ego-massaging discussion ('I'm an artist because XXX.' 'So am I.' 'Yeah, me too.') with very little point. Also (and no disrespect meant here) but I think it's a shame you had to resort to banning Steer, as he had some of the most interesting posts on Theory11 and made me think in a different way to certain matters. Is it worth losing someone like that for the sake of a few people that have had their eyes open to the fact that not everyone in life will give them a big smile? I don't think so. As I have said, sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing anyone, but I feel very strongly about this and think you are wrong about banning him. [overused sign-off line] Just my 2 cents. [/overused sign-off line]

I Agree

(word count)
 
Aug 2, 2008
496
0
Cincinnati
I'm sorry, but is there a point now that Steerpike's banned? You've taken away one side of the argument (I know there were others, but he seemed to be the main force behind this debate) and would now be a simple ego-massaging discussion ('I'm an artist because XXX.' 'So am I.' 'Yeah, me too.') with very little point. Also (and no disrespect meant here) but I think it's a shame you had to resort to banning Steer, as he had some of the most interesting posts on Theory11 and made me think in a different way to certain matters. Is it worth losing someone like that for the sake of a few people that have had their eyes open to the fact that not everyone in life will give them a big smile? I don't think so. As I have said, sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing anyone, but I feel very strongly about this and think you are wrong about banning him. [overused sign-off line] Just my 2 cents. [/overused sign-off line]


I agree that he made me think and he created interesting posts, but I thinks its over the line when you PM moderators and people working for T11 and say crappy things. I have a feeling that if he was constructive about this criticism to them, it wouldn't be a problem. But since he was disrespectful, apparently he had to go.
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
I agree that he made me think and he created interesting posts, but I thinks its over the line when you PM moderators and people working for T11 and say crappy things. I have a feeling that if he was constructive about this criticism to them, it wouldn't be a problem. But since he was disrespectful, apparently he had to go.

Point taken, but I still feel that we, as a community, lose out on this trade off.
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
1
34
Long Island/New York
I'm sorry, but is there a point now that Steerpike's banned? You've taken away one side of the argument (I know there were others, but he seemed to be the main force behind this debate) and would now be a simple ego-massaging discussion ('I'm an artist because XXX.' 'So am I.' 'Yeah, me too.') with very little point. Also (and no disrespect meant here) but I think it's a shame you had to resort to banning Steer, as he had some of the most interesting posts on Theory11 and made me think in a different way to certain matters. Is it worth losing someone like that for the sake of a few people that have had their eyes open to the fact that not everyone in life will give them a big smile? I don't think so. As I have said, sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing anyone, but I feel very strongly about this and think you are wrong about banning him. [overused sign-off line] Just my 2 cents. [/overused sign-off line]

Read this other quote from Jon Raiker:
I felt it appropriate to make a thread regarding the recent banning of Steerpike, as I have received a couple PMs regarding this very issue.

First and foremost, Steerpike was not banned for creating a thread that led to intelligent discussion among members (though I do think he could have phrased things a little better). In fact, we encourage you all to post such topics.

The fact is, he has zero respect for our staff, moderators, and community in large. This is evident through PMs sent to me and others privately. I won't repeat some of the extremely offensive and disrespectful things he said here... as it's not my place and definitely not appropriate for a forum that the younger generation frequents.

We very, very rarely ban members - especially ones that contribute. In this case, I personally tried to reason with Steerpike (who has been banned twice in the past for this same reason) time and time and time again - as did others - to no avail. In actuality, banning him was our very last resort.

We cannot and will not tolerate such blatant disrespect (again, things said via PM) towards our community and staff. This was not my call, but rather a decision that was reached by our entire team.

Hope this clears up any prejudgments and/or assumptions. I'm going to close this thread, only because I see no reason for the issue to be discussed further. However, feel free to PM me. Definitely down for a one-on-one (pun intended) discussion - as I have had with a few others.

Thanks guys!

He's banned for being disrespectful. No one gets special treatment reguardless if they make good points on a magic forum or not.
Everyone's treated as equals - 3 posts or 2,500 posts - the rules apply to everyone.

Also wanted to point out, were getting off topic.
 
Jan 13, 2008
1,137
0
After having seen this thread be reopened, I thought I would come in here to see the discussion about the actual topic continue...yet, all I see is discussion of Steerpike. There's a reason the other topic was closed, because there shouldn't be any discussion about it. He was banned for being disrespectful, end of story. Or at least, it should be the end of story. Yet this topic, which was graciously reopened for us, gets derailed with talk of his banning? This is ludicrous. I expected more from the community. :(
 
Aug 2, 2008
496
0
Cincinnati
After having seen this thread be reopened, I thought I would come in here to see the discussion about the actual topic continue...yet, all I see is discussion of Steerpike. There's a reason the other topic was closed, because there shouldn't be any discussion about it. He was banned for being disrespectful, end of story. Or at least, it should be the end of story. Yet this topic, which was graciously reopened for us, gets derailed with talk of his banning? This is ludicrous. I expected more from the community. :(

I posted my thoughts above.
 

jonraiker

vp of development
Team member
Aug 5, 2007
1,330
24
Florida
instagram.com
Already, we're off topic. ;)

Without saying too much (as I'd like to keep the details as private as possible), if you openly and admittedly can't respect the staff that founded this community after a simple message asking you to rephrase a few things in the future - it's going to be impossible to be a part of it. I didn't ask him to apologize. I didn't yell at him. I didn't threaten him with a ban. I simply asked him not to insult members, moderators, and staff. A simple request to which he responded with more insults - comments that wouldn't even be permitted on prime time television. The fact is, we've given Steerpike opportunity after opportunity (he's been banned TWICE in the past) to prove himself and upon each return he continues with the same antics, insults, and disrespect.

I want you all to notice something about your posts. You were not disrespectful in anyway. You stated your opinions in a positive manner - as opposed to resulting to insults. You did not curse or say anything inappropriate (pertaining to certain parts of the human anatomy). All the qualities we like to see from helpful and intelligent members. Unfortunately, Steerpike did the exact opposite and we ultimately felt he would do more harm than good in the long run. After multiple pleas and attempts at reasoning with him, he demonstrated that it was "his way or no way" - so we chose the latter.

Know that every decision we make is in the best interest of the community. If you'd like to discuss this further, please PM me. Let's try to keep this thread on topic. Thanks guys!
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
Read this other quote from Jon Raiker:


He's banned for being disrespectful. No one gets special treatment reguardless if they make good points on a magic forum or not.

I've read that quote, and am fully aware why he's banned. I still disagree with Jon/the mods on this one. Think about it, this is a forum. Nobody's going to get upset if a person they have never met and don't know insults them (and if they do, I'm sorry but I feel no sympathy for them). Don't forget that Steerpike, whilst insulting everyone, was contributing. Take someone like BrianationX. He got away with starting arguments and worshiping himself for a long time, yet did he ever give anything back? If he did, please point it out to me.

EDIT: Ok, I'll leave it here, but only because people are going to get angry if this thread doesn't go back to the original topic soon. Just wanted to get my thoughts about this out there.
 

jonraiker

vp of development
Team member
Aug 5, 2007
1,330
24
Florida
instagram.com
I've read that quote, and am fully aware why he's banned. I still disagree with Jon/the mods on this one. Think about it, this is a forum. Nobody's going to get upset if a person they have never met and don't know insults them (and if they do, I'm sorry but I feel no sympathy for them). Don't forget that Steerpike, whilst insulting everyone, was contributing. Take someone like BrianationX. He got away with starting arguments and worshiping himself for a long time, yet did he ever give anything back? If he did, please point it out to me.
When the insults are directed at staff and are completely inappropriate, then we're forced to take some sort of action. Imagine a community where everyone was under the impression that they can say anything they want and get away with it - to members, staff, moderators, whomever. Would this be a community that you'd want to be a part of?

Profanity and unprofessional conduct are explicitly prohibited per our established, posted forum rules, and as such - we expect all members to abide by them in order to create a positive, respectful, professional atmosphere for intellectual discussion - and just to have a good time. When these rules are broken, we respond with a warning in most cases, and when those warnings are met with more profanity and inappropriate conduct, we have no alternative other than a ban.

BrianationX is completely irrelevant, as we've banned him multiple times (including by IP Address) under a million different usernames. If you're ever under the impression that he might be back, PM me and I'll take care of it immediately.

Again, if any of you would like to discuss this further - don't hesitate to PM me. Otherwise, let's get back to the topic.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
He's always had that kind of attitude toward anybody tho. I do agree that he should be smart enough to phrase things in a less threatening manner if he wants people to take him seriously. You don't have to yell or treat people like trash just to get them to think.

He had a few valid points but they didn't get through because nobody wants to listen to a guy who puts on a "Holier than thou" type attitude.

He does this a lot on the E forums and I guess because he is a mod, the other mods and admins tend to cut him a bit of slack.
 
Anyway...

I think Steerpike's point was that magic is an artform that deserves to be seen. It's a visual form of expression that should have its chance at actually affecting audiences and the way they think and feel. It was his opinion that those who merely practice in their bedrooms and show off a few tricks for a YouTube clip aren't doing magic the way it was meant to be done. In my own opinion, I do (wholeheartedly) actually agree with that. But I disagree in that I believe that some of those magicians who never see the light of day can still be artists depending on what they see the art of magic to be.

In my opinion, the art of magic is the reaction of the audience. A performance can get so many different types of reactions. I find art in that. I like painting a picture with the magic I do. If I want to get screams, I know which tricks in my repertoire will inspire that. If I want to get eerie silence, I know which tricks I can do to inspire that as well. The effects I perform aren't the art of magic-- they're the tools I use to create it. After speaking with Steerpike privately, I think he agreed with that viewpoint.

But all magicians aren't the same. Some find more satisfaction in the creation of an effect. Those creative minds may never do a live performance, but they still exhibit amazing talent and ingenious thinking. Who are we to judge what they do is not art? They appreciate their own work just as much as any audience would and take pride in it just as much as any artist would. People find art in the different things. That's why I disagreed with what Steerpike had to say. But I did understand where his frustrations and passion stemmed from.

I feel that the performance of magic is regressing with each bedroom magician spawned off the internet. I feel that the modern magic community generally supports the creation of hacks and copycats. It's unfortunate. For example, the behavior is encouraged with each flourishing video that looks EXACTLY THE SAME as any other flourishing video posted on this very website. We see the fancy moves. Awesome. So what? We never see them used or played with in an actual performance for people. How do audiences respond to flourishing? Generally speaking, I've no idea-- because I've only seen videos of people doing them in bedrooms or alone looking ridiculous on an empty street or parking lot. This is not to say these individuals aren't artists. But I feel they're harming or detracting from the performance of magic. If there's no audience for a visual art, what's the point?

RS.
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
About your point Romeo, I think that a vital part of art is the appreciation. Therefore, I think that at least two people are required, the artist and the viewer. If art is about expressing yourself, as I believe it is, then you need somebody who gets the expressioned(?) at. Therefore, the artist that never shows his work is not an artist.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
Magic does deserve to be seen, but just because what you do isn't seen. Still doesn't mean you're not an artist. Paul Harris creates a crap ton of awesome effects, yet he rarely performs in front of people. There a lot of guys out there who create stuff, but don't perform them. Not everybody wants to be in the spot light.

I still think that even if you are practicing your art. Be music, magic or whatever. That you are still an artist. Not everybody feels that they are ready to perform in the public eye.
 
Aug 18, 2008
1
0
I think the title artist is simply just another role played by the magician, flourisher, painter, etc. I think it's necessary to call something an art form because it's the symbolic aspect of magic, i think that the title of magician or flourisher is the physical part and artist is used because people or rather laypeople can't understand or comprehend what's happening and why emotions are evoked. It's a necessary evil to call bedroom magicians artists no matter how bad they are (trust me on this i used to be one) because it's impossible to understand why they would take a camera and film themselves juggling cards or whatnot. In my opinion it's better than calling everyone prestidigitator or some other long hard to pronounce name or wtv. It's because we know what an artist is we can imagine what that would like like, it's completely rational and because of this i think the word artist is rather derogatory, and we can transcend this by evoking that emotion and bringing it to the irrational zone. I think the word artist is there just to limit anyone's potential, to be able to understand why the magician springs his cards, or why the painter let's take Jackson Pollock for instance uses big drips of paint, no one knows why, the word artist explains this in a weird way if you think about it. Dai Vernon once said that "any rule in any art can be broken" it's because when someone does something so extraordinary, so weird, so innovative no on knows what to call it, so we call this person an artist. So in my opinion if you want to insult someone call him an artist( something rational, something bland) if you want to compliment someone call them the son of satan or something (irrational). in any case i still think "it better to do your profession good than let your profession do you good."
 
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