theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards

You are not an artist!

Ok, I am not sure if this has been stated so bluntly, but almost every single person here is wrong. In the context we are using the word "artist" has become something that is subjective rather than objective. You determine whether you are an artist or not, by how you define "artist". If you believe an artist is someone who creates anything, and you create, you are an artist. Another may believe that an artist is someone who gets paid for the creations. If he does not get paid, then he is not an artist. Being an artist has nothing to do with the "definition" rather, how you interpret the word and how this applies to yourself.
 
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holo said:
Ok, I am not sure if this has been stated so bluntly, but almost every single person here is wrong. In the context we are using the word "artist" has become something that is subjective rather than objective. You determine whether you are an artist or not, by how you define "artist". If you believe an artist is someone who creates anything, and you create, you are an artist. Another may believe that an artist is someone who gets paid for the creations. If he does not get paid, then he is not an artist. Being an artist has nothing to do with the "definition" rather, how you interpret the word and how this applies to yourself.
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I agree with you here. That's why I'd actually like to steer the topic in a slightly different direction.

If everyone re-reads my reply from a few pages ago, I say that regardless if some of you think you're artists or not, there is a prominent community of you who are still harming the art of performance. Unfortunately, I find the behavior to be supported and encouraged here on this site and throughout the younger generation of "cyber-artists." I call out the XCMers but the argument applies to various magicians as well. I wanted to know what others thought of this angle.

My original reply is near the end of this page.

RS.



 
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Where do I start...this is overall bad.

Labels do matter - as it does matter how you define yourself to a certain extent.

However, I would like to say - what kind of artists debate if they are artists? I have never seen painters or musicians sitting around discussing if they are artists.

I don't think if you read instructions from a book, or replicate what you see from a DVD - you should call yourself an artist. I think in our CRAFT, not art, we consider guys artists that progress our craft through their contributions and original or progressive thinking of effects and problem solving.

If you want to call yourself an artist because you "present" it in the same way, but with different words...go ahead, why would anyone care, but from a standpoint of how the magic community looks at it...you are not an artist, at least not in the sense that we consider guys like Devo from Superhandz, one of the creators from this site or Juan Tamariz.

You can call yourself what you would like, but just because you label yourself as something, doesn't make it true. I don't think a guy that plays cover tunes on his guitar at a local bar, considers himself an artist like Eric Clapton. I think this was the point Steerpike was trying to make...artists, in our art, progress various aspects of magic...they learn and grow themselves...they don't just buy as much as they can, work on it a bit, then proclaim they are artists for mastering work that is not their own. If this is acceptable, it shouldn't be...however, I am not sure it would bother me so much...as they guy that calls himself JESUS and lives on my street corner...I don't get upset that he calls himself that, as it doesn't effect me.

So, call yourself Alexander the Great or King Henry...or an artist - why should we have a 25 page discussion on it? The truth of the matter is - VERY few of you are "artists" in the conventional sense - not in our craft...as art should offer something particular when it comes to freedom of interpretation....not sure that any effect offered on this site...or any other...allows for that. What it does allow is for you to express yourself...and hopefully get past the "I am about to fool you" versus "I don't want to be fooled" dicotomy that exists when you approach people to show them magic. If you can express something when you perform, more than "I fooled you", then perhaps that is your art...if you create something new...perhaps then...but I wonder if the guys we consider artists, call themselves that?

Why is this term so desired? I would want to be more than an artist - as artists don't usually perform in the manner that we do, interacting with people. Art is usually observed, and my magic allows me to connect and have people involved...so we can argue all day if we are artists or not...but I haven't really seen one person say this.

I feel that I am an artist because I do THIS ________________

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As I go, I want to state one more thing.

I am VERY surprised that this topic is reopened. I am disappointed by the actions taken and the amount of involvement by T11 on this one. Initially, I understood the reasons, but the aftermath has caused more hardship than letting it go.

Also - holo - he just called everyone an idiot - very disrespectful to the posters - will he be banned? If not - is the message, be rude to each other, just not to the all mighty T11? After all, Steerpike seemed to be defending his position to many, and few were on his side...is anyone surprised he got his back up? Then he gets contacted by mods, and is insulted that he is being attacked for his comments...and HE is being told to be more respectful? Then fires back disrespectfully to the staff? Then all hits the fan.

One time, I saw a dog that was so used to being biten, it bit a child...the dog wasn't a bad dog, but it still got put down. Too bad that when something is so used to having to defend the unpopular position, it changes them.

A message to the posters of T11 - if you want this forum to be better - start thinking about who you are challenging with your opinions. We have lost many EXPERIENCED and EDUCATED magicians from this thread, because many of you are so opinionated, you take no time to think about the back ground and experience of the person giving advice.

It took me 6 months to convince an award winning coin magician to come on this forum...he finally did, and after 2 weeks of trying to help young magicians (as our average age is about 16-18), he was so insulted by the responses of the users of this thread. He left. Awesome - a virtual OPEN door to SO many coin things...the man does it all, and well - and T11 users turned him off.

So...as much as Steerpike should be accountable for how he treated the staff...some of that burden falls on the 25 pages of topic that has NO relevance outside this circle. We lost an educated, yet abrasive, member.

This thread should be closed out of respect....but not before banning holo for his disrespect to others. Please stay consistent T11.

Thanks.
 
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I really hope Steerpike will be unbanned. Sure he had his jerkish ways at times but he really did bring so much great views to these forums.
 
The definition of an artist is wide-ranging and covers a broad spectrum of activities to do with creating art, practicing the arts and/or demonstrating an art. The normal meaning in both everyday speech and academic discourse is a practitioner in the visual arts only. The term is often used in the entertainment business, especially in a business context, for musicians and other performers (less often for actors). "Artiste" (the French for artist) is a variant used in English only in this context. Use of the term to describe writers, for example, is certainly valid, but less common, and mostly restricted to contexts like criticism.
 
Morgician said:
I am VERY surprised that this topic is reopened. I am disappointed by the actions taken and the amount of involvement by T11 on this one. Initially, I understood the reasons, but the aftermath has caused more hardship than letting it go.
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The thread was re-opened by our moderators because the discussion - the topic - is outstanding, and there have been some incredible posts in this thread that have contributed to a great discussion. That positive, intellectual discussion was spoiled not by our team, certainly not by our moderators, but by a very select group of members that chose to post in a disrespectful, unprofessional manner. When extreme, direct profanity began to fly - in the direction of our team, nonetheless - we had no alternative other than a ban. And if the same circumstances presented themselves tomorrow, we'd do the exact same thing. We have established forum rules for a reason - to ensure civil, intellectual, professional discussion - and we expect all members to abide by them.

In this case, Steerpike has in fact contributed mountains to this community by way of intellectual debate and discussion. Such activity is invaluable to us, as it is critical to our team of artists to foster advancement not only through our products, but by our community. To that end, we would welcome Steerpike back any day of the week with only a promise to abide by our forum rules in promotion of a family friendly, civil, respectful atmosphere. And I do mean it - I emailed Steerpike personally just a few moments ago with my direct phone number to discuss it.

In the meantime, please keep discussion relevant to the topic at hand. Cheers.
 
j.bayme said:
The thread was re-opened by our moderators because the discussion - the topic - is outstanding, and there have been some incredible posts in this thread that have contributed to a great discussion. That positive, intellectual discussion was spoiled not by our team, certainly not by our moderators, but by a very select group of members that chose to post in a disrespectful, unprofessional manner. When extreme, direct profanity began to fly - in the direction of our team, nonetheless - we had no alternative other than a ban. And if the same circumstances presented themselves tomorrow, we'd do the exact same thing. We have established forum rules for a reason - to ensure civil, intellectual, professional discussion - and we expect all members to abide by them.

In this case, Steerpike has in fact contributed mountains to this community by way of intellectual debate and discussion. Such activity is invaluable to us, as it is critical to our team of artists to foster advancement not only through our products, but by our community. To that end, we would welcome Steerpike back any day of the week with only a promise to abide by our forum rules in promotion of a family friendly, civil, respectful atmosphere. And I do mean it - I emailed Steerpike personally just a few moments ago with my direct phone number to discuss it.

In the meantime, please keep discussion relevant to the topic at hand. Cheers.
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That was very well said.



Now everyone is going to be asking for your number!
 
What I have been thinking about, and I hope Mr. Bayme will agree with me, is that one's title is irrelevant. Whether you think you are an artist, you know you are an artist, or whatever, the title does not make the magic.

Steerpike made some very clear points in displaying that magic is not an effect nor a reaction, but a combination of all the different elements that go into a magic performance which in effect makes it art.

But my point is, how will calling yourself an artist help?
You can say you're an artist yet fail horribly in accomplishing memorable magic tricks.
However all you have to do is make a great performance, and the title will come with it.

One powerful Jewish proverb that clearly applies is a famous one:
"Actions speak louder than words."
So honestly, go out there, perform, and do your best. Who cares whether you think you are an artist, or if steerpike says you are??
Let your audience be the judge.

Ben
 
DoveMagic said:
What I have been thinking about, and I hope Mr. Bayme will agree with me, is that one's title is irrelevant. Whether you think you are an artist, you know you are an artist, or whatever, the title does not make the magic.

Steerpike made some very clear points in displaying that magic is not an effect nor a reaction, but a combination of all the different elements that go into a magic performance which in effect makes it art.

But my point is, how will calling yourself an artist help?
You can say you're an artist yet fail horribly in accomplishing memorable magic tricks.
However all you have to do is make a great performance, and the title will come with it.

One powerful Jewish proverb that clearly applies is a famous one:
"Actions speak louder than words."
So honestly, go out there, perform, and do your best. Who cares whether you think you are an artist, or if steerpike says you are??
Let your audience be the judge.

Ben
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I second that.
 
I am sorry guys - but your audience isn't really educated enough on magic to be judges, moreoever, they are not exposed enough to live magic to know that a guy that is doing stuff that is his own work, versus doing an Invisible deck or copying the presentation and effects off his favourite DVD.

So, as much as we can "leave it up to those that watch" - I would be more comfortable leaving it up to my peers.
 
A few responses in this thread, that are truly brilliant, have not been commented on. I think they bring up extremely valid points about the mediocrity that permeates the media forums.

romeo sierra
I just can't stand to see another (bland) flourishing video. Artist or no artist, watching a pair of hands do some excessive card juggling is effing boring. It has no life or animation of its own. It's a series of moves. People look ridiculous just standing alone in a parking lot doing the 100,000th version of Sybil and all her distant relatives to some corny techno music in black and white.
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Indeed. Recently I read a thread where the users are crying foul because the 'Cut the Deck 2' vid, involving more flourishing for the webcam with the pointless addition of a knife, was labeled as 'not so great' by Josh.

Well, I have to throw my lot in with Josh, it wasn't good. Sure, the moves were fantastic, but it is not entertaining to anyone besides other XCMers. I was surrounded by my layperson co-workers, four of them, when I first turned it on and all four of them were bored before the video hit the 45 second mark.

That is saying something about the supposed 'art' that people are claiming to be performing.

romeo sierra
What would breathe more life into XCM? I genuinely think live performances of how the flourishes play out in real life would be a fantastic contribution to the magic community.
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Agreed. You want to make a great actual 5 star video? Put it in front of a live audience. No, I'm not saying that you have to shoot it Blaine style either and only show reactions. I'm just saying that you should get out there and ENTERTAIN some real living, breathing, people.

Also, have a point to what you are doing (which is ultimately one of the major points Steerpike was getting at.) A knife + XCM + Black and White does not constitute an original fantastic piece of work. It constitutes another video among the plethora of nauseating XCM webcam video's out there.

Also, I'm not trying to single out this one vid, as I feel the same about all of yoububedom. It's just the most forefront on my mind at this moment.

Dering's trailer of ring manipulation was interesting because..........you got it - De'Vo was in front of live audiences. Go figure.

Anyhow.

Sleight_of_Hand
Unlike plumbing or baking however, the difficulty lies in defining "art." Art is pretty much whatever anybody says it is, and an artist is similarly anybody who says he is one. This leaves any definition of "artist" and "art" so vague as to be meaningless. Does the act of creation, be it ever so humble or idiosyncratic, suffice to allow one to lift the laurel of "artist" to his brow? Anybody can call himself anything, but the test is whether or not you actually are qualified. A plumber would not dare to call himself a plumber unless he were qualified in the opinion of others to do plumbing, and had experience and credentials to prove it, and actually got paid good money for his work. The same is true of an automobile mechanic, elementary school teacher or newspaper reporter. You can't just call yourself a college professor or medical doctor and expect anyone to take you seriously. You need to have something to back it up. The term "artist," unlike "electrician," or "dog trainer," neither conveys qualification, nor is it specific enough to shed much light on what a person may actually do.
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Eloquently written and straight to the point. The word Art, and the word Artist are both basically meaningless in today's world. Completely disposable. In fact most people equate the word Artist with Kraft Dinner due to the whole pretentious 'Starving Artist' syndrome that leaks from filmschools like manure from a cow.

Sleight_of_Hand
I am a competent technician. I give value for value. I am an honest workman, and I do not want people to think that I am a con-man, running a scam, cheating the king out of his money under the pretense of making for him a suit of clothes that only the virtuous can perceive.

Therefore I do not call myself an artist. I create flat, representational objects---books, illustrations, posters, stained glass windows, greeting cards, wedding invitations, wine labels--in return for money. I'm glad that people like what I do, because that means that I can go on doing it. I like what I do, and consider it a privilege to be able to make my living doing it. But, I am not, at least in twenty-first century terms, an artist. I'll leave that to those who have no idea at all of what they do, or who they are, or where they are going, and must, for want of any other word, call themselves artists.
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Unfortunately I can't quote all of Sleight_of_Hand's post as it does have a lot of content. Check it out on page 6, as everyone seems to have skipped it and what he wrote sums up everything nicely.

As he ends it:

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all."

--John Cage.

Sorry, I don't have the time.
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Too bad that too many other users have more time than they know what to do with.

Maybe they wouldn't end up filling it by filming videos for an audience that isn't there.

urban


On a side note:

Morgician
It took me 6 months to convince an award winning coin magician to come on this forum...he finally did, and after 2 weeks of trying to help young magicians (as our average age is about 16-18), he was so insulted by the responses of the users of this thread. He left. Awesome - a virtual OPEN door to SO many coin things...the man does it all, and well - and T11 users turned him off.
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Just want to say that I agree with you Morgician, and consider it extremely unfortunate that the user you convinced to come on here recieved that reaction. It's unfortunate, though entirely typical.
 
As J. Bayme foretold not too long ago, there were calls made, chats were had...

Let me say first that I'm very flattered by the support given to me over the last few days. When you stop and consider that my approach to discussion is about as subtle as The Incredible Hulk driving a Harley Davidson with giant buzzsaws for wheels (give me a second to savor that mental image... thank you), I wasn't holding out for a happy ending.

In regards to the discussion that's taken place in the last few pages, I think I've accomplished what I wanted with this thread. Many of you came close to understanding my message, others came upon it without realizing it. The important thing was that you could see the smoke coming off of this thing from people thinking so hard about it.

Obviously, my ban has been lifted. I have admitted that certain things in private correspondence should not have been said. However, my appearances here are going to be sporadic as the new year is officially beginning this week and my time is becoming shorter and much more valuable. I can't spend as much time online as I did before. And it will be a while before I can give myself more breathing room.

We'll see where the road goes. In the mean time, take care.
 
We'll see where the road goes. In the mean time, take care.
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......And he returns, justifiably so.

Great to see the ban lifted my friend.

Whether you are here on a regular basis or sporatically, many a user looks forward to hearing from you.

urban
 
Steerpike, though you can be irritating, you are extremely funny and a great addition to the forum.
Glad you are back!
 
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