It exists if you believe...

[Sherlock]

Was watching a recent episode of The Mentalist, the episode about the ghost in the manor.

Jane had a really good line that I immediately associated with us magicians. Paraphrased, If you believe in ghosts then they exist if you don't then they don't. Well first off ghosts are something very odd because there is no proof that ghosts do not and can not exists however there seems to only be evidence for the proof of ghosts, and yes there is much crappy evidence.

Anyways, I associated this line with magic and thought it was something pretty cool. If your spectators believe that something truly happened, with no sleight of hand, or gaff or gimmick then magic as they believe it truly does exist.

However, playing opposites, if they believe you use sleight of hand, gaff or gimmick then it does not exist.

Of course there are many threads explaining how this can be done so I won't regurgitate what was said before as a simple search can help you there. What I do want to talk about is what you believe in.

I think most people can agree here that Osterlind is a fairly good performer, better than most and has some great products on the market. Yet something that I came to realize and something D ICE R and I talked about was how he presented his act.

Not a fan of it, as he clearly states that he is there to entertain, and no reason to get caught up in the whole ghost stories or having the ability to truly move objects with his mind starting a cult because he apparently moved pages with his BRAINNNN.

Now some of you may be thinking about Derren Brown and he actually clearly states in his entire routine that he is not psychic, can not read f****** minds, nor can he float objects with his mind. However, his performance literally makes them forget such things as they are so astonished and intrigued by what is being performed for them.

If you don't believe in what you present to them, then why should they? If you perform like a move monkey then they see it as such and realize it's something to gander at like it's a skill not as what they were hoping.

Simply put, it exists if you believe so why and how can they prove you any different if you can back it up with simply your belief. Just ask the three crazies in the psych ward explaining to each other how they are actually Jesus the second coming. See what I mean.

 

[Mr.MadMan]

There is a saying that i used in one of my essays on this topic.

"Believe in nothing you hear and only half of what you see..."

And i believe that this is the true essence of a persons mind. The fact that we don't want to believe in anything we hear, since people can deform things that have been said, and when people see something strange their first reaction is that they are seeing something that is coming from their imagination so they kinda think it is real but they don't fully believe in it.

And that is our job, to break the boundaries of believing and not. We have to sell the fact that what is happening is real but we cannot say it out loud or else you will end up like Uri Geller.

Mikk.

 

[D ICE R]

Well I have two different beliefs on this topic.

The first is on of the mentalist the other (minor) one is magician. I know most of you will not understand this however let me simply state that as performing as a mentalist you really need to adopt a different mindset to present it. However you mentioned that Osterlind is just there to entertain, I agree to an extent. A lot of his psychokinesis based effects are the 'real' deal. Osterlind's other effects do not have the same level of belief in them, thus not appearing to be as real as the metal bending. This is only seeing his performances on some LnL DVDs I am sure that in his proper shows he puts more effort into this, especially after reading his Making Magic Real book.

The reason that Derren is so believable is not only that he believe in what he is doing. He is also telling people how he is apparently doing it, whilst he has been caught out a few times (the ten card poker deal [which had a lot of genuine psychology in it]) he is still convicted in his methods and procedures make people believe in reading their thoughts or manipulating them.

Watch Me.

As you can see in the Max Maven video he demonstrates how he can manipulate people then he proceeds to explain exactly how he did it. Later he did an effect that cemented this belief.

This is a great example of how the thinking of magicians and mentalists think. As Bob Cassidy states in the Artful Mentalism 'if they believe your initial premise, than everything else becomes easier to swallow'. Because Max gave them something that they could see and had it explained to them the Simple Grey Elephant in Demark trick did not feel like that. To the audience it felt real, it felt like something that people could not explain.

I will use an example that almost all people on this forum would be able to relate to an ACR. The same idea could be taken and applied to this classic of card magic. The simplest way to accomplish this would be to explain how exactly you are doing the effect, explain the mechanics of the pass. I know this is not the best method however it could lead them down the garden path so to speak as to when you use a double lift it would really destroy the idea that that have. On second thoughts you could use David Williamson's ACR as a starting point to explain how the ACR is done.

Just a few cents worth.

 

[Phenomena]

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just because YOU believe in something, does not, and never will, make it true depending on the topic. Its delusional thinking, i can believe that 2 + 2 is 5, and according to you I am right, but only to myself. Yet it is just wrong.

You say the same thing with ghosts, or religion. You claim something on faith and suddenly you feel untouchable, like nobody can ask questions. Yet if you take something like alien abduction, where there is just as much evidence as a god or ghosts, and people quickly think you should be locked up in an institution.

Life is not complicated, yet humans feel the need to saturate this simple world with delusional bs.

 

[RasmusAndersen]

Phenomena's post is so true, I just HAVE to qoute it all, and hope you guys read through it again and think about it.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just because YOU believe in something, does not, and never will, make it true depending on the topic. Its delusional thinking, i can believe that 2 + 2 is 5, and according to you I am right, but only to myself. Yet it is just wrong.

You say the same thing with ghosts, or religion. You claim something on faith and suddenly you feel untouchable, like nobody can ask questions. Yet if you take something like alien abduction, where there is just as much evidence as a god or ghosts, and people quickly think you should be locked up in an institution.

Life is not complicated, yet humans feel the need to saturate this simple world with delusional bs.

 

[visualartist]

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just because YOU believe in something, does not, and never will, make it true depending on the topic. Its delusional thinking, i can believe that 2 + 2 is 5, and according to you I am right, but only to myself. Yet it is just wrong.

You say the same thing with ghosts, or religion. You claim something on faith and suddenly you feel untouchable, like nobody can ask questions. Yet if you take something like alien abduction, where there is just as much evidence as a god or ghosts, and people quickly think you should be locked up in an institution.

Life is not complicated, yet humans feel the need to saturate this simple world with delusional bs.

That was kind of irrelevant.
HE is talking about things that are only based on belief. Not solid numbers.
In situations like God,ghosts,magic,etc. The ONLY thing that matters is what you believe. There is NO proof it doesnt exist and theres no solid evidence that it does(in the case of ghosts most people are scared to try)

 

[KeoSilver]

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just because YOU believe in something, does not, and never will, make it true depending on the topic. Its delusional thinking, i can believe that 2 + 2 is 5, and according to you I am right, but only to myself. Yet it is just wrong.

Splitting hairs already hmm? This isn't what the discussion is about, the op is talking about making the participants "Believe" that "magic" has actually occurred.

You say the same thing with ghosts, or religion. You claim something on faith and suddenly you feel untouchable, like nobody can ask questions. Yet if you take something like alien abduction, where there is just as much evidence as a god or ghosts, and people quickly think you should be locked up in an institution.

Life is not complicated, yet humans feel the need to saturate this simple world with delusional bs.

Since you like talking about religion and faith so much here is an example of what the thread was actually supposed to be about. Peter Popoff a fake and a con artist. He fooled his victims into believing they where actually getting blessed and cured by the hand of the god they "Believe" in so hard. These victims where fooled so hard they actually believed they felt better, and they probably did. But if Peter Popoff could really cure AIDS and Cancer with his hand and god, we wouldn't need science anymore.

Your post went completely off topic either that or your focus is just so damn narrow that you completely forgot this is a magic forum, and we are talking about magic theory. Leave your beliefs and ego at your own home, if you truly believe that life is so simple why don't you go kill yourself. Death is probably a lot more exciting for you then living in a world that you hate, and feel is uncomplicated filled with loons who live their delusional BS lives. Just as a side note I hate it when people are so damned broad in their speech that they lump everyone in one category. True some people will frown on the idea of alien abduction, but not everyone; it isn't fair to use the word people, and humans without being specific.

Now to some up what point I wanted to say,
Spectators can be persuaded to believe in the unbelievable, its been proven time and time again that the power of belief is strong to a human.
For the ones who are skeptical Rasmus, Phenomena,

Placebo Effect
Peter Popoff
Now what is remarkable about the Peter Popoff scam is people still believe that he can heal people yet he was exposed by James Randi. The people who fell for this "delusion" as you put it phenomena obviously are quite sane and disabled still. So yes 2+2 does not equal 5 or 6 or 8. BUT

2x+2=8 Human belief is equal to x which is also equal to whatever human belief wants to believe in period.

 

[Liderc]

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just because YOU believe in something, does not, and never will, make it true depending on the topic. Its delusional thinking, i can believe that 2 + 2 is 5, and according to you I am right, but only to myself. Yet it is just wrong.

You say the same thing with ghosts, or religion. You claim something on faith and suddenly you feel untouchable, like nobody can ask questions. Yet if you take something like alien abduction, where there is just as much evidence as a god or ghosts, and people quickly think you should be locked up in an institution.

Life is not complicated, yet humans feel the need to saturate this simple world with delusional bs.

But if you want to dive deeper into it, 2+2=4 is only that way because some person said it was. he believed it to be, and so the people believed it also

numbers, letters and time were all created by man as means of control

 

[Zeedub81]

But if you want to dive deeper into it, 2+2=4 is only that way because some person said it was. he believed it to be, and so the people believed it also

numbers, letters and time were all created by man as means of control

I see where you are coming from, but in the real world, 2 pens put together with 2 more pens gives you 4 pens.

On topic: the job of the magician is to get the spectator to believe his lie. They believe it to be true, but in reality it is a lie.

 

[Sherlock]

I don't mind debating but please don't over exaggerate the point I was making as to try to prove me wrong. I talked about things one could not explain, never did I say anything about facts that isn't even labeled under the believe, it is labeled under as fact.

Look at the people in alien abduction theories, there is no fact as there exists none, only supporting it. I'm not trying to get philosophical with you, but you try to point out such things I will make not of them. If you truly believe in something rational thinking is very difficult to instill in people, e.g. Sorry bout this, but the bible is incredibly inconsistent and has many fault ever try proving this to a Christian? It's nearly impossible to do so, as their faith their actual belief is focused on wanting to be right.

You also just further solidified what I was talking about Phenomena. As a majority in society who doesn't believe in alien abductions, we classify them as crazy and loony. Yet there is to my knowledge no evidence against it, because it's something created by belief. So us the majority who believe in something so amazing as to be false, it proves it to be true to ourselves.

Now back on topic, David Williamson and his ACR. After the habit of the card coming to the top they all believe that when the man looks up the card will be back on top. He believed it to be so and instilled it with actual proof to the audience and then they believed it. This is stretching what I was going on about before but same general concept.

Silly people, thinking that I could be wrong. I am never wrong, because I believe myself to be correct 100%, and therefore I am. {Sarcasm font}

 

[Mr.MadMan]

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just because YOU believe in something, does not, and never will, make it true depending on the topic. Its delusional thinking, i can believe that 2 + 2 is 5, and according to you I am right, but only to myself. Yet it is just wrong.

You say the same thing with ghosts, or religion. You claim something on faith and suddenly you feel untouchable, like nobody can ask questions. Yet if you take something like alien abduction, where there is just as much evidence as a god or ghosts, and people quickly think you should be locked up in an institution.

Life is not complicated, yet humans feel the need to saturate this simple world with delusional bs.

You my sir have not studied the art of psychology. If you had in any given time to this date, hypnotized a person you could see what belief can do. Also why the hell should 900 people take in poison to kill themselves, knowingly btw, only to see god for once in their life. They dragged their kids to that and killed their kids because of their beliefs.

If you were an atheist you would probably know what belief does to people. The fact that Christmas is being celebrated is rubbish. People believe in Christmas when on the other side fat men are making money off Playstations and Beer.(direct quote from Tim Minchin) The Placebo effect is a great example. Belief is the greatest thing our brain can do at this given time.

An honest opinion by you, and though you got bashed and im sorry for my end of it but you cannot put everything in numbers. I know that facts make life easier but i found out the hard way that life is not all that simple either. I had never lost anyone dear to me until this August when a dear friend died of cancer. Now i never visited her in the hospital because we werent that good of friends but when i went to her funeral i only went to the curch part not the graveyard part. So 2 months later i wanted to visit it, and see where she rests. Now think about a graveyard for a moment, i had no idea which direction it was nor where it should or should not be, the place is huge. I spent 15 minutes wondering around, now this part gets interesting, i am a Mentalist and a starter at Spiritualism, but i know what to look for and how people think about sings from spirits and such. I actually stopped walking and said to myself "Name, show me where you lie so i can say goodbye", now this was october, song birds fly out from where i live on the end of september this was well into the 2 week of october and i suddenly hear a bird singing. Now i took a shot, being very accurate of where the bird was, sure enough i find a grave where there is still a lump and flowers, i approach it and see that it is not her's. Suddenly i feel like someone is trying to lift me, trying to fly me away, i turn around and there it is, her grave.

From that point on, i doubt nothing but Aliens, those things are weird, but that taught me to take everything from life and to try to take everything in that is given to me.

Heavily off course now, but yes lets go on with our topic shall we?

Mikk.

 

[Haunter]

People believe in Christmas when on the other side fat men are making money off Playstations and Beer.

Easy now, I loves me some playstation and beer.

At any rate I think the cause of this conflict stems from different definitions of reality. Truthfully, you can put reality into at least two categories. I'm sure there are actually philosophical terms for this but I don't know them. So lets just say:

Concrete Reality-What is actually happening. Our senses have limits so perceiving concrete reality is out of our grasp. We can really only focus on one thing at a time and only on whats close enough for us to see/hear/smell/touch/taste. Closing your eyes doesn't actually make the whole world go black. The fact that we can be surprised is proof that concrete reality is beyond us.

Perceived or Subjective Reality-Reality as your own senses allow you to perceive them. This is your operating system for life. This is reality as you know it. It doesn't get any realer. So as far as our own abilities to perceive it, THIS IS REALITY. Magic works because it causes a glitch in the system. We're understanding their operating system and painting one picture while in concrete reality setting up an outcome that is impossible under the conditions that they have perceived.

We hack perceived reality. It sounds pretty cool that way

 

[James Smith]

Really interesting post, a similar subject that has been brought up before is, "Be confident, and don't sound like a robot reciting the same script for the hundredth time."



Also, The Mentalist rocks.

 

[scarecrow1]

I like this post Sherlock. It's completely true also. If you truly believe something, so much you could swear it (and it didn't actually happen) it's reality to you. Good post.

 

[Phenomena]

My post was not directed to anyone in particular, despite me using the word "you" a lot. It was directed to the problem in general, the stupidity of man.

But this doesnt change the fact, if YOU believe something, however absurd it may be, still does not make it real.

How lives are already controlled enough by useless made up garbage.

 

[scarecrow1]

My post was not directed to anyone in particular, despite me using the word "you" a lot. It was directed to the problem in general, the stupidity of man.

But this doesnt change the fact, if YOU believe something, however absurd it may be, still does not make it real.

How lives are already controlled enough by useless made up garbage.

No, it won't make it real, it will make it real to the person. You got the idea wrong. Of course if I think I'm a banana it's not real, but it's real to me. It's a fact to me.

BTW, I don't think I'm a banana...

 

[visualartist]

My post was not directed to anyone in particular, despite me using the word "you" a lot. It was directed to the problem in general, the stupidity of man.

But this doesnt change the fact, if YOU believe something, however absurd it may be, still does not make it real.

How lives are already controlled enough by useless made up garbage.

It doesnt make it unreal either.

 

[Sherlock]

Could you elaborate on the useless made up garbage? Now that is way to broad of a subject.

Stupidity and comfort are two different things, and while sometimes it may seem to interlope in fact they don't. Stupidity is like Taco from the show The League, if you don't know he's just ignorant to everything and is oblivious to what really happens.

Now put that in a real person, talks out of their ass most of the time and expects people to listen and agree. Stupidity isn't a word I would even use, ignorant is a better term, because while you may know more about a large variety of things over one person they know more than you about something else.

Comfort is brought to many people through their belief of something. Reality is only perceived to the individual. What is real and what isn't only matters to that person, however if the masses agree upon such thing then it's classified as the "real" reality.

Scarecrow put it best and very blunt, won't make it real, but real to the person.

 

[visualartist]

My post was not directed to anyone in particular, despite me using the word "you" a lot. It was directed to the problem in general, the stupidity of man.

But this doesnt change the fact, if YOU believe something, however absurd it may be, still does not make it real.

How lives are already controlled enough by useless made up garbage.

Also I wonder if you believe in anything outside of the cocksure science and "logic" of many people.
I used to be the same way for a few years. When I was 13.

When I was so sure that nothing existed I saw and witnessed things that would make your blood curl and things that will leave you in awe.
BUT..I wish to post things that are more in the mainstream kind of famous.

The U.S. Government declared the Whaley house of San Diego to be officially haunted. built in 1856. The department of commerce to be specific.
Monks in some regions of asia have displayed the ability to raise the temperature of their extremities by as much as 17 degrees. Scientist havent a f'ing clue how this is done.
So if the world is filled with these mysteries and wonders. No one can tell me what I can and cant believe.

Id like to add another mystery. The bloop.
summer 1997 if my memory serves me correctly.In that year, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration recorded a strange sound in the ocean. Strange and LOUD. So loud that it was picked up by two separate microphones 3,000 f'ing miles apart! The sound, dubbed "The Bloop," doesn't sound like anything at normal speed. However, the NOAA did us the favor of speeding up the recording to 16 times the normal speed, causing it to sound like a turd dropping into the toilet. Bloop! Except, you know, awesomely loud.

Scientists determined that its wave pattern indicates it was made by an animal, and not a giant electromagnet sucking a plane out of the sky, as the creators of Lost were no doubt hoping.

Why Can't They Solve It?

There is no animal big enough or loud enough to make that kind of noise, not by a long shot. Not a blue whale, not a howler monkey, not a twilight fangirl.

Not long after the NOAA posted the sound to their web site, some HP Lovecraft fans on the internet quite reasonably decided that The Bloop must have been made by Lovecraft's Cthulhu, a giant, murderous squid-dragon-thing.
My theory? Its the Cloverfield beast. Its coming.

 

[visualartist]

Very important about this topic at hand. Quoted from Steer.

"The general attitude seems to be an abandonment of scripting, personas, characters, and context with a supernatural overtone and migrating more toward either pseudo-science or just admitting to trickery, fraud, and deception in the name of entertainment. Apparently, this allows the audience to suspend their disbelief better,apparently this is still magic. or so I am told.

My question is this: Where exactly do Harry Potter and White Wolf Studios succeed where you fail?

To clarify, I'm addressing the fact that some magicians are beginning to take the stance that the supernatural no longer belongs in the presentation of magic, that audiences can no longer buy it so they don't want to see it.

But that seems to fly in the face of the run-away success of the supernatural in the film and literary world. Harry Potter, The Dresden Files, The World of Darkness, pretty much everything Neil Gaiman writes, and even (disgusted shudder) Twilight. The supernatural is still very commercial. "